LLM - Mental Attributes play too big of a part....

Now, for the first time in a long while when I've had a complaint, I've not got any actual "proof" - or screenshots, but more of a general overview of this particular problem, and would like to know if others have similar problems.

I personally pride my team on youth, and good physical attributes. Obviously young players have poorer mental attributes than older, but the gulf in class seems massive when it comes to the older players.

Just a few examples,

Coca Cola - League 2

Top 3 Goal Scorers

1. Chris Dagnall, Age 30, 28 goals in 28 games.

2. Danny Glover, Age 28, 24 goals in 28 games.

3. Jay Rodriguez, Age 28, 23 goals in 27 games.

Top 3 Assists

1. Kevin O'Connor, Age 31, 10 Assists

2. Keiran Forbes, Age 26, 10 Assists

3. Darren Hallam, Age 20, 10 Assists

Now, you may not see that as too odd, but I do. Heres why. In the top scorers, the players are no where near technically as good as some other players in the division, (not specifically mine, but in general), but mentally, they are better, and this shows in the performances.

The reason I have also added the young assisters is due to the fact that the 26 year old, and the 20 year old both have brilliant Mental attributes, as does the 31 year old.

I've started to watch some players who are older, and notice they have a much, much bigger impact on games than younger, yet more technically, and physically gifted players.

Now, for the first time in a long while when I've had a complaint, I've not got any actual "proof" - or screenshots, but more of a general overview of this particular problem, and would like to know if others have similar problems.

I personally pride my team on youth, and good physical attributes. Obviously young players have poorer mental attributes than older, but the gulf in class seems massive when it comes to the older players.

Just a few examples,

Coca Cola - League 2

Top 3 Goal Scorers

1. Chris Dagnall, Age 30, 28 goals in 28 games.

2. Danny Glover, Age 28, 24 goals in 28 games.

3. Jay Rodriguez, Age 28, 23 goals in 27 games.

Top 3 Assists

1. Kevin O'Connor, Age 31, 10 Assists

2. Keiran Forbes, Age 26, 10 Assists

3. Darren Hallam, Age 20, 10 Assists

Now, you may not see that as too odd, but I do. Heres why. In the top scorers, the players are no where near technically as good as some other players in the division, (not specifically mine, but in general), but mentally, they are better, and this shows in the performances.

The reason I have also added the young assisters is due to the fact that the 26 year old, and the 20 year old both have brilliant Mental attributes, as does the 31 year old.

I've started to watch some players who are older, and notice they have a much, much bigger impact on games than younger, yet more technically, and physically gifted players.

At the low, low skill levels in the lower leagues, being cool, calm and collected in front of the goal means a whole lot more than being a wiz kid. After all, when the goalkeeper isn't likely to save a shot, it's much more important to actually send the ball in the general direction of the goal rather than panic and blast it anywhere.

The reason I'm saying that is because I got hired as a manager by a BSN team in the "no players" database, and the regens they got are below crap, I daresay some are worse than I am IRL (and that's *really* poor ). My top scorers are the two defenders who keep scoring in corners, the strikers are apparently unable to hit the goal from any position.

Are the actual players there really at 15-25 CA/PA, and most skills below 5?

I understand what you are saying but I think that the same is often true in real life. I can think of many examples of older experienced players being able to impact a game more than the better & fitter younger players. The reason is that they know how to play a game, you can have an 18yo MC with perfect passing, technique etc... but if he doesn't know how to adapt to a gritty game or deal with an opponent who knows all the tricks they will struggle.

If you think about it though that's true in real life. Players who can read the game better will always be able to get into scoring positions, make plays or cut out attacking moves where younger players, no matter their technical ability, won't have seen the move to make it.

I've never done much managing in the lower leagues so I'm going on guesswork, but I'd assume the standard of technical ability is lower than the mental abilities you'll see in players at the end of their careers?

I don't think that bias towards mental attributes is limited to the lower leagues.

I have noticed that while playing in the championship, players with good mental skills nearly always outperform those with good technical attributes.

Also, good physical attributes cannot be overlooked. My team walked away with the championship title. Most of the players had good physical and mental skills, but mediocre technical skills.

Yes, technical skills are worthless if the player doesn't have the mental strength to use them properly and the physical ability to last the distance and not get knocked about by the opposition.

Ruttsie / Heisenberg

I agree, mental attributes are important in a players career, but if you had a Technically perfect 20 year old v a Mentally perfect 30 year old, There should not be a massive gulf in class.

The 20 year old (or rather, the more technically gifted) may not be as composed as the 30 year old, but if his finishing is 20 and the 30 year olds is only 4 or 5, I'd back the 20 year old every time.

This mainly came to my attention, through losing 4-3 in a game a few weeks back (In-Game Weeks).

The scorers were 3 young guns from my team, and 1 30 something from there team hit 4 goals. This wouldn't usually bother me, but the guys finishing is 6, his Technique is 10, and his first touch is 11. Then on the mental side of things, his Composure is 18, concentration is 16 and his positioning is 15 (all 6 are key attirbutes when it comes to scoring, imo).

Then we have my 'Best' young striker. He has finishing of 18, First touch of 16, Technique is also 16, and to top it off, his Long Shots is 14. He has 15 composure, but only 6 for positioning and a mere 4 for Concentration. He has a much worse scoring rate than the older players, despite, imho, being a more gifted player for that position. Physically he is also better, due to the mass decline in physical attributes for over 30s.

I am a high scoring team too, (my midfield contributes towards most of m goals) - yet my forwards have ample amounts of shots that they just constantly miss.

Just for a laugh, I'm going to buy a 30 something striker and give him a few games, to see what he can come up with.

The youngster should beef up his mental stats as time progresses, for now he's better kept for less important and easier matches.

The stats have no bearing on performances WHATSOEVER, the entire engine is based on the players Current abiltiy... so the older players are more likely to have reached their max potiental, and therefore are more likely to put out good performances in comparision to the younger players.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by barto123:

The stats have no bearing on performances WHATSOEVER, the entire engine is based on the players Current abiltiy... so the older players are more likely to have reached their max potiental, and therefore are more likely to put out good performances in comparision to the younger players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You couldn't be further from the truth about the engine being based on CA mate.

Playing in the Russian Div 2 at the moment, and have seen some similar things although not as extreme.

Almost every team in the league got a decent 25-33 year old striker good for about 20 goals a season, with a couple of them hitting 30 every year.

It could just be about the stats and not age as well (although older players are more likely to have better mental stats of course). I had 20 year old with average stats at best score 27 but his composure is 16 i think. But just picked up an "athletic" 18 years old striker from ghana with fantastic physical stats but below average technical and mental (8-9 in all of it) and he is scoring like a madman, averaging 5 goals and 2 assists per 4 games. Could be because his physical stats is so far superior to the opposition though that they "outweigh" his lacking mental and technical.

I always though position was defensive, off the ball was offensive and also though Concentration was more defensive while composure was offensive but it is possible they inter-act somehow.

And Barto123 must be playing another game... . I remember having a old DM which my coaches gave 1 star and probably had declined severely. He by far the worst player in the teams in terms of CA, but that didn't stop him from averaging 7.4 in a DM position in Serie A. Of course, he had a few really good stats, but they were the right ones.

Anyway, back to the point. You are right, I've noticed this change towards making mental stats more important as well. Maybe it was to stop people from picking up really young technical players and having them be fantastic, instead trying to plan in their peaks to more co-incide with their increasing mental attributes, effecticaly increase the price of older players and making them more viable to buy (I remember in FM07 when I several times sold my top striker when he wanted too hige wage just because I could pick up a 18-20 year old with similar stats for nothing and have him play just as well).

Can't say its right or wrong, but there is some logic to it atleast.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by barto123:

The stats have no bearing on performances WHATSOEVER, the entire engine is based on the players Current abiltiy... so the older players are more likely to have reached their max potiental, and therefore are more likely to put out good performances in comparision to the younger players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an absolute pile of crap this statement is. CA has nothing to do with the calculations made during a match so please stop making such ridiculous claims or you'll just confuse people who don't know any better and have them think attributes mean nothing, which couldn't be more wrong.

If you think CA means nothing then check out Kipfiz's bandits thread. Anyone who has read this will be thinking of two players called Maia and Helbig, who both had 190+ CA (Maia was 199 CA) but both played like donkeys, and rarely averaged over 7 in a season. CA at best is indicative. Just out of interest, those two did fall down on mental stats.

Sorry, nothing should be Everything there.

NepentheZ

Do all of your young strikers have low composure/concentration/positioning (i.e. lower than ten)? I agree that considering their apparent skill with the ball they should be scoring more consistently, but I've never done much research into the effects of lower mental attributes (the lowest I've ever managed in was the Scottish D1).

Have you ever seen this happen on other saves?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Heisenberg:

NepentheZ

Do all of your young strikers have low composure/concentration/positioning (i.e. lower than ten)? I agree that considering their apparent skill with the ball they should be scoring more consistently, but I've never done much research into the effects of lower mental attributes (the lowest I've ever managed in was the Scottish D1).

Have you ever seen this happen on other saves? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not something I've looked into deeply until now. I'm playing in Coca Cola League 2, and have just been promoted the season before, so I expected a relegation struggle. Now, while the oldest person in my squad was 26, I was doing ok, and managing to keep my head above water in the league. In the Jan Transfer window, I signed 4 players over 30, with quite remarkable Mental attributes for my division, and my results have improved incredibly. Not exactly winning more games, (haven't done the math yet, tbh) - but I've played a lot of teams at the top of the table, and am coming away with draw, or narrow losses, where as at the start of the season v these teams, I was getting battered.

Results Pre-Transfers...

LWLLDLLLWLLWWWWLLWWLDLWWW

35 points from 25 games. 1.4 ppg

11 wins from 25 games.

Results Pst-Transfers...

DDLLLWLDWDD

11 points from 11 games. 1.0 ppg

Quite clearly there, there has been a negative effect on my ppg ratio, but again, this is largely due to the teams I've faced, and I'm sure the results over a longer period of time will be different.

However.....

I do still think there is quite an imbalance in the metal attributes.

This may be how the game is intended, and I will certainly re-think my entire team selection and tactics based on the new found knowledge.

RE Goalscorers:-

The hidden attribute consistency hasn't been mentioned. As players get older their consistency level increases, although some regens are generated with a decent level. Particularly those who are generated at a young age (16/17) and exposed to reserve team football straight away, and then first team football in their second season and onwards.

There is a stronger link to consistency plus mental attributes and high goalscoring, than mental attributes alone. A couple of players with very good mental attributes for the league they are in but not that great consistency.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5214/consistencyinstrikersqf6.jpg

(I only show the last two years as they are the years I've been in the Championship with full detail level). The top guy has averaged 1 in 2 games which is good in real life but in my FM world leaves him 16th in the goalscoring chart. Players of similar/lower attributes but higher consistency are scoring more.

They both have low bravery aswell but I don't believe that is strongly linked as the top scorer has bravery of 7 and the 4th top scorer bravery of 9 (but high consistency and high mental attributes).

On a purely anecdotal note I've always found a link between high scoring strikers and having their club as a favoured one.

Of course those two I posted might well be the exception that proves the rule. I would look into it but Genie Scout isn't working for me and to have a dig around is too time consuming with the other 3rd party programs.

It's a very interesting observation, I might play about and see if I can similar results from older players. To an extent it makes a lot of sense - often IRL the players who stand out in the lower leagues (and I'm thinking mostly Scottish league to be fair, not that familiar with English) are older and more experienced.

Btw Nep, if you want to test it in Wallace v Roberts now be your chance, the last guy gave up.

ishuckatfm

I'd not considered consistency, that has to account for a fair bit of difference in performance. Does anyone know if there are specific personality types which require high consistency? (I don't use scouting programs)

NepentheZ

Will you be doing any research into this? If not, I might have a go at assessing the difference mental attributes make when I'm done with my exams this year (though it'll probably be slow work as I'll be on a placement for much of the summer)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Heisenberg:

ishuckatfm

I'd not considered consistency, that has to account for a fair bit of difference in performance. Does anyone know if there are specific personality types which require high consistency? (I don't use scouting programs)

NepentheZ

Will you be doing any research into this? If not, I might have a go at assessing the difference mental attributes make when I'm done with my exams this year (though it'll probably be slow work as I'll be on a placement for much of the summer) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hadn't planned any formal research, but I will start to mix and match my oldies in the team, and see what kind of effect it has, so feel free to do what you'd like

I must say, I'd be very interested to see your results.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Hadn't planned any formal research, but I will start to mix and match my oldies in the team, and see what kind of effect it has, so feel free to do what you'd like Thumbs Up

I must say, I'd be very interested to see your results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent, hopefully I'll be able to get this up and running by next week once I've worked out some parameters for the experiment. I'll post a link in here when I get started

All suggestions (from anyone) are welcome by the way, as this is my first FM experiment