Possession meter makes no sense

I am looking at my match stats split view. I'm newcastle playing at home to sunderland. The possession meter makes no sense

Newcastle has 80% pass completion, while sunderland has 74% pass completion.

Newcastle has 33% crosses completed, sunderland has 11% crosses completed.

Newcastle has 96% tackles won, while sunderland has 81% tackles won.

Newcastle has 63% headers won, while sunderland has 56% headers won.

Newcastle has higher percentages in every single category, yet Newcastle have only 40% of possession and Sunderland has 60% of possession.

How is this possible?

Secondly, I'm noticing that making shorter passes is not equaling better pass completion.

In real life the shorter you tell your players to pass the ball, the more they should complete, period. Yet in FM it's trial and error every single game. One game I go short passes low tempo (25% of each bar is where i lcik), and the possession and pass completion is great. And i'm just going to be using home games as examples so as not to confuse with playing away and different stadium sizes. Another game at home I have the same low tempo short passing and the pass completion is terrible. thEN i go to very direct passing and all of a sudden it goes from 60% pass completion to 75% pass completion.

IT'S RIDICULOUS!

I want my team to be a possession team like Barcelona. short passes, generally low tempo, although sometimes some high tempo tick-tack-to one touch passing sequences, and a few direct passes at the end of the play, as in killer through balls.

Yet half the games when I have them on low tempo short passing or mixed tempo short passing, hafl the time they misplace all the passes, even against bad teams!

And I have an incredible roster. aND i've read tactics and theorems guide. I have an MCd and MCa, FCd and FCa. But regardless whatever your tactics are, even if they're terrible, short passing should still increase pass completion compared to direct passing. It's a no brainer. Even if your tactics are terrible and it only increases your pass completion from 30% to 50% it should stil increase it every game.

so how do I get some consisntecy here and not have to do trial and error every game to find out which kind of passing creates possession today in the world of FM randomness?

Are you saying that Barca win every game?

Say you're playing an inferior team; they're not going to sit back and let you get into a passing rhythm and will close down your players, meaning less time and room for short passes at low tempo. If you keep asking your players to play such a game, they'll probably suffer mentally from loads of misplaced passes and interceptions, and so maybe long balls ARE the answer, if they're closing you down.

As for the possession. Maybe your players aren't in the right places, so even if you win tackles or headers, the ball returns to the opposition? Maybe their players are getting too much time on the ball?

So what exactly is 'ridiculous'?

There are other factors to consider like weather, good/bad days by certain players, opponent formation and settings and simpler things like team talks and what not.

A high pass completion % could mean that when Newcastle do get the ball they pass it well but that doesn't mean that Newcastle have possession of the ball more often. Players could be dispossessed by Sunderland players resulting in a switch of possession. Maybe the Sunderland players are allowed too much time on the ball by the Newcastle players. The stats you give aren't an indication of why Newcastle should have more ball possession. They simply suggest that when Newcastle do whatever it is they do whether it be crossing or passing it tends to be more successful. Also keep in mind that a high passing % could come about from pointless passing at the back by the defence and the GK.

I suggest looking at the full match to look at why your team aren't clicking then adjust the appropriate sliders.

Keep in mind that English teams tend to close down a lot so a slow tempo might not be the best strategy to adopt at Newcastle. It can be successful I guess as I've had some success with it but I have found that higher tempos in home games brings about a lot more success.

Nothing ridiculous here except perhaps for your tactics. It's quite possible for a side to have more possession and make fewer passes by playing a lower tempo and holding up the ball.

Your short passes will only be successful if there are players to pass to. A common tactical error is to have players set to make forward runs, thus leaving no one behind to receive a short pass.

you clearly haven't read the tactics bit properly cause it says have your defenders on short passing, attackers on direct passing and creative players on mixed passing if you want to build from the back which is how you control possesion.

I must partially agree. Short Passing in my experiance doesn't seem to have a a significant enough impact on Pass Completion. That isn't to say it doesn't have any; it certainly does. But it's less consistant than you'd expect, especially when moving the ball wide.

As stupid as this might sound, comparing one match to another is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

What tactics (and therefor passing distances) work in one game wont automatically work all the time. It entirely depends how your oponent is playing and also lots of other factors like match day performance, weather conditions, pre-match talk, etc etc

Its a bit naive to expect the same passing to elicit the same pass completion regardless of whom you are playing imo

Are you saying that Barca win every game?

Say you're playing an inferior team; they're not going to sit back and let you get into a passing rhythm and will close down your players, meaning less time and room for short passes at low tempo. If you keep asking your players to play such a game, they'll probably suffer mentally from loads of misplaced passes and interceptions, and so maybe long balls ARE the answer, if they're closing you down.

As for the possession. Maybe your players aren't in the right places, so even if you win tackles or headers, the ball returns to the opposition? Maybe their players are getting too much time on the ball?

So what exactly is 'ridiculous'?

lmao no! where did you get any of this? Barca should win every game?

No, I'm saying if Pepe Guardiola tells Barcelona to try 50 meter passes constantly, then their pass completion percentage should be lower when they play like that than when he has them playing short passes like they do in real life.

I'm saying there needs to be consistency in the game, a trade off. When you play direct passing, each pass should yield a higher chance of being a killer pass, but also each pass should have a greater chance of not reaching the target, and then you lose the ball to the other team. Short passes should be less threatening per pass, but should be safer, connect more, and add to a more possession game.

the problem with FM is one home game against birmingham game short passes yield a ton of possession, and the next home game against birmingham my team only connects 65% of these short passes, and some of my defenders only 50% of their passes (which is completely ludicrous. in real life DC's just pass back and forth to each other, the goalkeeper, to the wing backs, safe short passes, and they complete 90% of them).

And what would be fine is if like, say this second game, my players are only completing 65% of the passes. That would make sense if like, say, Birmingham is having a great game, right? They're marking really well, etc, and my passes just arent connecting, period. But what makes this completely ludicrous is that in this second game I can change to direct or long passes and all of a sudden my pass completion goes up to 75%. So it's like my players could not even connect well on short little safe passes against a much worse team, but then all of a sudden when I ask them to play 50 yard passes constantly they have no trouble completing those.

What I'm saying is short passing should always yield better "pass completion %" than direct pasing, period.

Yet in FM, it doesn't always. Every game it's different, seemingly randomly so, with no logic behind it.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM. HOW CAN I FIX IT? Or is it simply something fM needs to fix?

For short passing to actually work, the player that's passing needs to have players nearby to actually pass to. The example given in another thread earlier was if you have a fullback on short passing, but his winger and midfielder on lots of forward runs, as soon as the fullback gets the ball, his immediate passing options are going to start sprinting away from him, leaving him to either pass back to his centre half (a potentially risky pass), or play it long (and risk giving the ball away). It's not just a case of setting short passing and expecting the players to pass it short, you have to set the rest of the team up to allow him to play short passes.

Again, all I'm saying is this:

Even if my tactics are horrible, if I keep them the same, and the only thing i change is going from direct passign to short passing, the pass completion should be higher. Even if the formation I start with is terrible. Say my tactics are awful. My formation is awful. Personal instructions: awful. Fine. But say within this awful tactic I have everyone's passing set to direct.

Okay? following so far?

Everyone's passing is set to direct. And because my formation and everything else is so terrible, my players are only completing 30% of their passes. Okay?

Now, even in this god awful tactic, in this terrible scenario, what I'm saying is....

IF I KEEP EVERYTHING ELSE IN THIS TACTIC THE EXACT SAME, AND ALL I CHANGE IS THE PASSING, AND I CHANGE IT FROM DIRECT TO SHORT, REGARDLESS OF THE FORMATION AND EVERYTHING ELSE, THE PASS COMPLETION PERCENTAGE SHOULD INCREASE, EVEN IF BECAUSE OF MY TERRIBLE FORMATION IT ONLY INCREASES FROM 30% TO 40%, IT NEEDS TO INCREASE.

So tactics, formation, that really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. What I am talking about is regardless of all that other stuff, changing from direct passing to short passing while keeping everything else the same should increase the pass completion.

Yet in FM, half the time it's the opposite! Half the time you change from short passing to direct passing, and by some miracle your players are able to complete long passes at 70% completion when they couldn't even pass the ball accurately to their teammates' feet five minutes before at higher than 60% pass completion when the passes they were attempting were shorter and easier?

so how in FM half the time your players are better at completing hard passes than easy ones?

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

And anyone who tries to deny that is just an unconditional FM lover who can't admit that there are things wrong with the game, and who tries to justify everything by "well if you knew this magical tactical trick you could fix the problem, or what they really mean is if you magically knew who to rewrite the match engine by using the tactical interface, then you could fix this by sliding every bar to the perfect place, etc etc."

But in real life you don't have to do that. That wouldn't even help in this scenario because there's a paradox at the heart of it (that players can complete harder passes half the time better than they can complete easier ones), but the real problem is the match engine doesn't just let your great players play the game like they know how, like it's really played in real life, without perfectly gaging every slider bar, etc etc, and even once you do that and it works for five minutes it stops working.

You don't need to be a master computer programmer to be a successful manager in real life.

And for the record, I'm in my fourth season with Newcastle, have won two Champions Cups, 1 euro cup, 1 premier division, one league cup, and one FA cup. And one world club champs thing. Sao Paolo beat me the second time arggh.

So the game has actually been too easy for me the last few seasons. But that's because I utilize trial and error every single game. The passing style has nothing to do with pitch length or width. Like i said and this is my problem, there is no consistency or logic to this.

at the beginning of each game i start at short passing. If I'm not winning the possession battle, I go to mixed. By halftime or so i'll end up going to direct if neither of short or mixed works. And by that time one of them seems to work and im finally getting all the chances and everything, and then i win almost every game. I broke records for unbeaten runs. But that's the whole point. It's freaking annoying and a waste of time having to trial and error like that every game. There should be logic to it. I should be able to keep the team on short passing and have that be the most efficient way to, if nothing else, at least win the possession and pass completion battle.

For short passing to actually work, the player that's passing needs to have players nearby to actually pass to. The example given in another thread earlier was if you have a fullback on short passing, but his winger and midfielder on lots of forward runs, as soon as the fullback gets the ball, his immediate passing options are going to start sprinting away from him, leaving him to either pass back to his centre half (a potentially risky pass), or play it long (and risk giving the ball away). It's not just a case of setting short passing and expecting the players to pass it short, you have to set the rest of the team up to allow him to play short passes.

Not true. In real life, if you want your players to play short passes, but for some reason some of your palyers aren't smart enough to get into the right position on their own and present passing options to your player that has the ball (which players are smart enough tod do that in real life), then your player who has the ball would think "okay, im supposed to play short passes, but since no one is within short passing range, that means im either gonna make a run to get into a good passing lane, or I'm going to make an exception this time and make a medium length pass instead to my open teammate over there!"

Barcelona play short passing but they're not stuck to it. If you would classify inesta's and xavi's passing style on FM it would be short because most of their passes in real life are short, but once in awhile they play long through balls.

How would you do that in FM?

What if I want Xavi and Iniesta (on FM) to "play short passes most of the time to keep possession, but play some long passes every once in awhile when you see a good opportunity."

You could do short passing, through balls often or mixed, and a lot of creative freedom, but it's still not the same. the point is in real life Xavi and Iniesta have brains, and you don't need to tell them what to do so specifically. they jsut know because they'er world class football players. And that's what it should be like in FM. Your players should take care of possession and getting open for their teammates passes on their own with you telling them "hey, remember, this is your mentality"

lmao no! where did you get any of this? Barca should win every game?

No, I'm saying if Pepe Guardiola tells Barcelona to try 50 meter passes constantly, then their pass completion percentage should be lower when they play like that than when he has them playing short passes like they do in real life.

I'm saying there needs to be consistency in the game, a trade off. When you play direct passing, each pass should yield a higher chance of being a killer pass, but also each pass should have a greater chance of not reaching the target, and then you lose the ball to the other team. Short passes should be less threatening per pass, but should be safer, connect more, and add to a more possession game.

the problem with FM is one home game against birmingham game short passes yield a ton of possession, and the next home game against birmingham my team only connects 65% of these short passes, and some of my defenders only 50% of their passes (which is completely ludicrous. in real life DC's just pass back and forth to each other, the goalkeeper, to the wing backs, safe short passes, and they complete 90% of them).

And what would be fine is if like, say this second game, my players are only completing 65% of the passes. That would make sense if like, say, Birmingham is having a great game, right? They're marking really well, etc, and my passes just arent connecting, period. But what makes this completely ludicrous is that in this second game I can change to direct or long passes and all of a sudden my pass completion goes up to 75%. So it's like my players could not even connect well on short little safe passes against a much worse team, but then all of a sudden when I ask them to play 50 yard passes constantly they have no trouble completing those.

What I'm saying is short passing should always yield better "pass completion %" than direct pasing, period.

Yet in FM, it doesn't always. Every game it's different, seemingly randomly so, with no logic behind it.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM. HOW CAN I FIX IT? Or is it simply something fM needs to fix?

You suggested that one tactic, or one style of play, works always. It's simply not the case.

You need to match your opposition. On occasions when a team is trying to press you hard, then yes long passes may work better, because players nearby may be tightly marked, but longer passes may go to players in more room, due to the other team pushing up with a high line and high closing down.

Short passing doesn't always work; it's simple. If your players can't find the room or the position needed for a short pass, or are being pressured, they're more likely to make mistakes or give the ball away. It could be the ball stays at the back too much, because no one allowed to play long passes, but there's no one coming back to collect the ball, and no room to push forward. Defenders aren't exactly the greatest passers under pressure.

Creative freedom matters a hell of a lot though. Short passing with high freedom could mean that while you think this would result in usually playing short passes, with the occasional mixing of play, if they're not getting the ball in the right places with the right support, or are under pressure, you may see them largely trying longer passes.

In terms of 'brains', creativity and such stats are important. The freedom allows them to utilise it more, but they'll always have it. Thus why even with the shortest of passing they'll attempt otherwise.

Just remember, a long pass isn't neccessarily a hard pass, and a direct pass isn't neccessarily a long pass. If that makes sense. Similarly, any style of passing only works depending on where the players are to receive the ball.

Not true. In real life, if you want your players to play short passes, but for some reason some of your palyers aren't smart enough to get into the right position on their own and present passing options to your player that has the ball (which players are smart enough tod do that in real life), then your player who has the ball would think "okay, im supposed to play short passes, but since no one is within short passing range, that means im either gonna make a run to get into a good passing lane, or I'm going to make an exception this time and make a medium length pass instead to my open teammate over there!"

Exactly. If your players don't have short passing options, they will play longer and more risky balls, so your pass completion percentage will go down.

the point is in real life Xavi and Iniesta have brains, and you don't need to tell them what to do so specifically. they jsut know because they'er world class football players. And that's what it should be like in FM. Your players should take care of possession and getting open for their teammates passes on their own with you telling them "hey, remember, this is your mentality"

But you are telling them something. Like it or not, you are giving every player an instruction through the sliders and they will try and follow it. If you tell player A to play short passes, and players B and C to make forward runs, either player A cannot make short passes (because their is no one to pass to), or players B and C can't make forward runs (because they are hanging back to receive short passes from player A). One or more players has to ignore their instructions because their instructions are contradictory. In this case, the short passing instruction is getting ignored.

You suggested that one tactic, or one style of play, works always. It's simply not the case.

You need to match your opposition. On occasions when a team is trying to press you hard, then yes long passes may work better, because players nearby may be tightly marked, but longer passes may go to players in more room, due to the other team pushing up with a high line and high closing down.

Short passing doesn't always work; it's simple. If your players can't find the room or the position needed for a short pass, or are being pressured, they're more likely to make mistakes or give the ball away. It could be the ball stays at the back too much, 'because no one allowed to play long passes, but there's no one coming back to collect the ball, and no room to push forward. Defenders aren't exactly the greatest passers under pressure.

Creative freedom matters a hell of a lot though. Short passing with high freedom could mean that while you think this would result in usually playing short passes, with the occasional mixing of play, if they're not getting the ball in the right places with the right support, or are under pressure, you may see them largely trying longer passes.

In terms of 'brains', creativity and such stats are important. The freedom allows them to utilise it more, but they'll always have it. Thus why even with the shortest of passing they'll attempt otherwise.

Just remember, a long pass isn't neccessarily a hard pass, and a direct pass isn't neccessarily a long pass. If that makes sense. Similarly, any style of passing only works depending on where the players are to receive the ball.

Everything he said:)

Just to prove it watch a full match on 2d

If the slider is set too low which tells the player to only make passes say of 10 yards and the nearest player is 15 yards away, then this presents no passing options to that player. In this case the player will either hoof it upfield (which would usualy give the ball away) or run with the ball(if you have this set to always for that player).

For the best results check where your players are when in possession, for optimum success you need at least 3 passing options for each player. Remember free players depend on the oppositions formation and their pressing, eg a 451 formation usualy has 10 players behind the ball, which is 10 against 6. Free space is at a minimum then and a more direct approach is the called for.

What I'm saying is short passing should always yield better "pass completion %" than direct pasing, period.

Yet in FM, it doesn't always. Every game it's different, seemingly randomly so, with no logic behind it.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM. HOW CAN I FIX IT? Or is it simply something fM needs to fix?

The red part is exactly true every game is indeed different...

Short passing doesn't and shouldnt always result in better completion.

If you your players are all being pressed on tight man marking with the opposition playing narrow with a high line (for instance) then short passing will suck balls.

Every pass will put your players under more and more pressure as that area of the pitch get more and more crowded and youll end up passing it in pretty triangles but going nowhere until you either (A) misplace a pass and give away possesion OR (B) hoof it aimlessly upfield to clear the danger and lose possesion.

In the same situation setting your passing to long or direct your players would have the opportunity to seek out your wide players on the other side of the pitch who are likely unmarked or in space due to the AIs tactics (as described above) then all the AI players will charge over that side to close him down, leaving spaces elsewhere for him to hit with direct/long balls...

Against a team who are playing a low D-Line and low tempo/closing down game then the opposite is true, playing long balls will just give them the ball back repeatedly.

And on the other subject if you want players to sometimes ignore your instructions (like the example of Ineasta/Xavi) then youd give them a high amount of creative freedom, which assuming they the mentality for it will allow them to 'think outside the box'

Newcastle has 80% pass completion, while sunderland has 74% pass completion.

Newcastle has 33% crosses completed, sunderland has 11% crosses completed.

Newcastle has 96% tackles won, while sunderland has 81% tackles won.

Newcastle has 63% headers won, while sunderland has 56% headers won.

Newcastle has higher percentages in every single category, yet Newcastle have only 40% of possession and Sunderland has 60% of possession.

What those numbers mean ---

Newcastle have completed 80% of thier passes, they had 20% fail, Sunderland had 26% pass failures.

When comparing pass completion %'s you are actually looking at a total of 200%, the same applies to tackles, crosses & headers.

60% of possesion means Sunderlands players were given LOTS AND LOTS of time on the ball, and you failed to combat it effectively.

So basically whilst your passing was more accurate, and your tackling/heading more effective, Sunderlands pressing was much more pronounced than yours reducing available time on the ball for your own players

TheRealMagpies is right. You must be standing off the opposition and letting them keep possession. You need to close them down more.