Playing away, sweeping away

[Tetsuro P12]

Playing against a superior team away, my players kept sweeping ball while being placed correctly on the field, and with more people in the midfield than the opponent. Everything set to standard (no rush, higher tempo, direct passages, etc.). Have you ever seen a (bit inferior) team doing *nothing* in the field because playing away? That's what I dislike of this current engine.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[rockpie]

11 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Playing against a superior team away, my players kept sweeping ball while being placed correctly on the field, and with more people in the midfield than the opponent. Everything set to standard (no rush, higher tempo, direct passages, etc.). Have you ever seen a (bit inferior) team doing *nothing* in the field because playing away? That's what I dislike of this current engine.

Yes. I've seen superior teams at home struggle too.

Did you consider that leaving everything on standard played exactly into Hamburger SV's tactical setup?

If things are going so badly, your job as the manager is to figure out what you need to change.

As you said yourself in another thread:

18 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

He must decide that on his own by watching the game and seeing how player react, and his team disposition (that he can adjust as he likes).

Edited December 12, 2019 by rockpie

[HUNT3R]

That screenshot shows that you were dominated by the home team. You've told us that they are the better team. So given those two pieces of info, there's nothing really out the ordinary going on. You were heavily dominated, so it should surely be able to improve on that at least. So, with that in mind -

Without seeing at the very least how you're setting up, it's going to be difficult for anyone to give advice to set up your team to do better.

[rockpie]

1 minute ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Watch latest results in Champions League: Brugge-Madrid 1-3, Leverkusen-Juventus 0-2, Zagabria-Manchester 1-4, Shaktar-Atalanta 0-3. When a team is clearly stronger it wins.

I'm responding here since the other thread doesn't want to be derailed.

I don't see how this is relevant because you are not talking about stronger teams:

22 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

And why my team, playing away against a superior adversary

You are clearly referring to yourself as the weaker team.

 

At this point I'm thinking you are just a troll account, not interested in giving good advice and not interested in asking for actual advice either.

[Tetsuro P12]

But if my players arrangement is fine my team should have done something, right? Like that passage to that player near him, instead of just sweeping (since they got no instruction as 'sweep the ball when you have it'). This type of result happens when a team play defensive, slowing down their play or counterattacking, that wasn't the case (Positive mentality with everything set to standard and one man more on the midfield). If I play my normal game I can even lose 3-0 but with some chances created, they can create more but I should do something instead of just sweeping. What they had? An inferiority complex? All of them? To me it isn't normal. 3-0? Fine, keep sweeping while not instucted to do so? Never seen it.

My team was the weaker one, but when I play against weaker teams than mine they have their chances even if they lose by 3. It's a 3 star team against a 3 star and a half.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[rockpie]

14 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

But if my players arrangement is fine my team should have done something, right?

If your team hasn't done anything, and is being dominated like this, then your tactical approach is not fine.

If you legitimately think something is wrong with the match engine, and your players are completely ignoring clear passing options while under zero pressure from the opposition players, then you can save the match and upload the .pkm file in the bugs section of the forum.

My guess, though, is that your players probably were being pressured by the home team, forced into clearances because passing lanes were not clear or other players were being marked.

Edited December 12, 2019 by rockpie

[Tetsuro P12]

10 minutes ago, rockpie said:

If your team hasn't done anything, and is being dominated like this, then your tactical approach is not fine.

If you legitimately think something is wrong with the match engine, and your players are completely ignoring clear passing options while under zero pressure from the opposition players, then you can save the match and upload the .pkm file in the bugs section of the forum.

My guess, though, is that your players probably were being pressured by the home team, forced into clearances because passing lanes were not clear or other players were being marked.

It's the same approach that led my Tottenham 6th (I was still tinkering, so it could have ended better ) or 11th with Aldershot (a team that was expected of relegation). I'm actually trying the perfect tactic, the one that can be played everywhere. And yes, some players do play this way, can't be ignored by Sigames (with FM17, and games before it, it could be done).

Still, in other occasions (with other teams), I tried many times to change completely tactics (first half one, second half another) to not avail, like if it was already decided that my team lose in those particular matches, making me thinking that's not necessary to adjust tactics on the go (and should not!).

It's difficult to mark all players when you are inferior in numbers (they played with classic 4-1-2-2-1, so plenty of space), nor pressing more than usual. I didn't see anything different than other matches, except my players with an inferiority complex doing nothing but sweep (68% right passages).

[rockpie]

40 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

It's the same approach that led my Tottenham 6th (I was still tinkering, so it could have ended better ) or 11th with Aldershot (a team that was expected of relegation).

These are not particularly impressive results. You actually under-performed expectations with Spurs there.

40 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I tried many times to change completely tactics (first half one, second half another)

This is a radical approach that I'm not sure many people would advise.

But it certainly does not mean that you can then conclude that adjusting your approach to respond to specific situations is a bad idea.

40 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

It's difficult to mark all players when you are inferior in numbers

Unless they had a man sent off, they were not inferior in numbers.

40 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I'm actually trying the perfect tactic, the one that can be played everywhere.

Good luck -- I guess you need to keep experimenting, because you have not succeeded yet.

 

I would try to be more helpful but you're still not providing all the details of your tactical setup and I just think you have the wrong approach to the game -- completely different to my approach, anyway.

And because your laziness isn't working, you come here to blame the match engine....

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by rockpie

[herne79]

22 minutes ago, rockpie said:

And because your laziness isn't working, you come here to blame the match engine....

Lets not start calling people lazy please.  A lack of understanding and a willingness to blame the game perhaps.

This is spot on though:

1 hour ago, rockpie said:

Did you consider that leaving everything on standard played exactly into Hamburger SV's tactical setup?

If things are going so badly, your job as the manager is to figure out what you need to change.

Tetsuro, you can't just "hope" something is going to work or that the ME will suddenly change what's happening on the field just because you want it to.  You need to figure out what's going wrong and implement change.  You need to tell the ME what to do otherwise it won't change.

Here's an example - I just played Barcelona away in the ECL.  We won 5-1 after going 1-0 down and me making a minor tweak or two, nothing major.  My next match was at home against the mighty Burnley and we drew 1-1.  That Burnley match was me failing to do my job properly, not the Match Engine - and that wasn't even away from home.

Anyway, if you want specific advice you need to post your detailed tactical set up.

[Tetsuro P12]

28 minutes ago, rockpie said:

These are not particularly impressive results. You actually under-performed expectations with Spurs there.

This is a radical approach that I'm not sure many people would advise.

But it certainly does not mean that you can then conclude that adjusting your approach to respond to specific situations is a bad idea.

Unless they had a man sent off, they were not inferior in numbers.

Good luck -- I guess you need to keep experimenting, because you have not succeeded yet.

 

I would try to be more helpful but I just think you have the wrong approach to the game -- completely different to my approach, anyway.

And because your laziness isn't working, you come here to blame the match engine....

 

Nor that bad, I was adjusting the tactic there. Aldershot was with the final tactic.

I was just testing if tactics would made differences, so tried completely different approaches, to no avail. If in that match I was 'destined' to be outclassed i would end like that. Doom.

They were playing with 3 attackers, me with 2, so yes, they were less.

I suppose that with this match engine it will be difficult, anyway I did good results with Aldershot, and looks like Sheff Utd have no inferiority complex against FC St. Pauli:

 

x herne79: In my opinion it isn't a tactical problem. I can setup different tactics, still if the game presume that I should lose a match I will, even if I change it (second half), like I said before. Otherwise I win.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[herne79]

16 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

x herne79: In my opinion it isn't a tactical problem. I can setup different tactics, still if the game presume that I should lose a match I will, even if I change it (second half), like I said before. Otherwise I win.

That's really not how it works, I can't say that enough.

Look at what you did:

17 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I was just testing if tactics would made differences, so tried completely different approaches, to no avail.

You tried completely different approaches.  Based on what?  A tactic you decided to experiment with for no reason other than to try something different and guess what the outcome was.  That's not the ME making you "destined" to be outclassed.  That's you deciding to experiment and it backfired on you.

The ME is not perfect and could be improved in many areas but until you accept there are things you can do differently and carry on blaming the ME for things that you are doing, you'll continue to be frustrated.

[Tetsuro P12]

17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

That's really not how it works, I can't say that enough.

Look at what you did:

You tried completely different approaches.  Based on what?  A tactic you decided to experiment with for no reason other than to try something different and guess what the outcome was.  That's not the ME making you "destined" to be outclassed.  That's you deciding to experiment and it backfired on you.

The ME is not perfect and could be improved in many areas but until you accept there are things you can do differently and carry on blaming the ME for things that you are doing, you'll continue to be frustrated.

Maybe it isn't 'destiny', but if I play completely different schemes something must change. If I completely change player positioning, roles and some instruction the AI can't do the same exact play as before, and annihilite my team in the same way, nor it necessarily change its own formation accordingly to my changes. If nothing change then something is going under hood that a player can't counter.

I set up my game and try to win with my game, the AI does the same. I can win with a Catenaccio or a Tiki Taka but I don't use one or the other to counter opponent's scheme. It's not that Barcelona begin using Catenaccio because its Tiki Taka isn't working, they continue to use their Tiki Taka, maybe change one role or something but they play their game. And any manager decide which scheme to pursue. That's manager and team's identity.

Not that I presume to be like a real manager, I'm just playing a game, hopefully investing just the time to find it entertaining, without treating it as if it is a real job; micromanagement (on the field too)? No thanks. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[herne79]

4 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

If nothing change then something is going under hood that a player can't counter.

I appreciate that may be your opinion based on observation however it is factually incorrect because the game is simply not coded in that manner.

6 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Maybe it isn't 'destiny', but if I play completely different schemes something must change. If I completely change player positioning, roles and some instruction the AI can't do the same exact play as before, and annihilite my team in the same way, nor it necessarily change its own formation accordingly to my changes.

Here's another thought - perhaps the changes you made were so poor that the opposition simply continued to run rings around you.  Replacing one bad tactic with another bad tactic isn't going to make your team play any better.

[Tetsuro P12]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Here's another thought - perhaps the changes you made were so poor that the opposition simply continued to run rings around you.  Replacing one bad tactic with another bad tactic isn't going to make your team play any better.

I don't believe that youn are honestly thinking that. It sound more as an excuse. A completely different tactic can't lead to the same exact result.

[rockpie]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

Lets not start calling people lazy please.  A lack of understanding and a willingness to blame the game perhaps.

Fair.

45 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I don't believe that youn are honestly thinking that. It sound more as an excuse. A completely different tactic can't lead to the same exact result.

Please upload the highlights where you used 2 different tactics and you got the same exact result -- same player positions on the pitch, same movement off and on the ball, exact same passes being played, exact same runs being made, exact same goals being scored, etc.

[herne79]

@Tetsuro P12  You've been asked more than once to show us your tactic.  Without seeing that nobody can offer you specific advice.

Remember this is the Tactics Discussion Forum.  At the moment you just seem intent on blaming the Match Engine for your problems despite being repeatedly told the ME doesn't work in the way you believe.  If that's what you want to do then start a Bug report in the Match Engine forum, upload all the match pkms you have which you believe show these issues and in that report tell the developers themselves - the match engine coding team - that they're wrong and giving out false information (which they aren't).

On the other hand if you want to discuss tactics then discuss tactics and post your detailed system(s).

If all you really want to do is carry on having a moan at the ME without accepting any blame yourself, you're in the wrong forum for that and I'll close this thread because it's not tactical discussion (ie., the entire point of this forum).

[Tetsuro P12]

49 minutes ago, rockpie said:

Fair.

Please upload the highlights where you used 2 different tactics and you got the same exact result -- same player positions on the pitch, same movement off and on the ball, exact same passes being played, exact same runs being made, exact same goals being scored, etc.

Exact (end) result, ergo them bombarding me. It's obvious that those things do vary. I told before that the team was bound to lose, not that movements are the same with different tactics (that would be illogic), where have you found it? 1-0, 2-0 with completely different set up can happen for certain.

x herne79: It's called 'strategies discussion', can I point an opinion where strategies don't change the end result? It seems in topic to me. It's illegal to blame the match engine as per Sigames instruction or what? Imho it should be criticized if someone have a particular opinion on a specific characteristic.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[XaW]

If you would upload the savegame, others could try out different things and see if they have any things that work? I have a decent counterattacking tactic that usually works against better teams I could try.

[Razor940]

Bruv, just post the fn tactic and stop saying your opinion this and that. Your opinion made your team underperform like hella crazy, if you want help stop running and help us help you. Stop with the nonsense.

[rockpie]

2 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Exact (end) result, ergo them bombarding me. It's obvious that those things do vary. I told before that the team was bound to lose, not that movements are the same with different tactics (that would be illogic), where have you found it? 1-0, 2-0 with completely different set up can happen for certain.

Like @herne79 said above, if you post detailed information about the tactics you used -- the one you started with, and the one you changed to -- then people can explain to you why you may have got the same result.

Screenshots would be great, showing Mentality, Team Instructions, Player Roles and Player Instructions.

If you don't, I guess mods will just close this because you are not interested in help. You just want to complain.

You have already been told that is not how the game works. And I know from my own experience that if you make the correct adjustments, you can see huge improvements.

It's up to you if you want to receive help or just continue being wrong about things.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

x herne79: It's called 'strategies discussion', can I point an opinion where strategies don't change the end result? It seems in topic to me. It's illegal to blame the match engine as per Sigames instruction or what? Imho it should be criticized if someone have a particular opinion on a specific characteristic.

Your opinion is factually incorrect.  I could say "in my opinion grass is red" but I'd be factually incorrect because in actual fact the chlorophyll in grass makes grass appear green, not red.  Likewise you can say in your opinion the ME cheats but you are factually incorrect because there is no such code written into the game, ergo it cannot cheat.

Now, for the final time, if you want to discuss tactical options then post your tactical system (ideally screen shots) and somebody may be able to give you some ideas of how you may be able to improve things.  Should your next reply not contain your detailed tactical system I'll close the thread because if you don't that will confirm to me that you're not interested in a tactical discussion and all you really want to do is moan about the ME, which is not what this forum is for.  I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but you're really not helping yourself here - just post your system.

[Tetsuro P12]

1 hour ago, rockpie said:

Like @herne79 said above, if you post detailed information about the tactics you used -- the one you started with, and the one you changed to -- then people can explain to you why you may have got the same result.

Screenshots would be great, showing Mentality, Team Instructions, Player Roles and Player Instructions.

If you don't, I guess mods will just close this because you are not interested in help. You just want to complain.

You have already been told that is not how the game works. And I know from my own experience that if you make the correct adjustments, you can see huge improvements.

It's up to you if you want to receive help or just continue being wrong about things.

I want to share my opinion, not sharing my tactics/games. I think opinions should be respected (no matter what). Can't share anything without sharing my 'tinkering', and since I'm jealous about my tactic I wont. Still I would like to see the proper respect to others opinion. You said you can overturn a match when an opponent is annihiliting you. If you allow it I do express my doubts. Even when sharing a save there is no guarantee that with a match redo that opponent will still annihilite you (playing the same tactics), so it's even useless.

x Herne79: That's your opinion marked as fact. Close it then, I'm accustomed to anglosaxon way of 'moderating' opinions. Like the 'Reddit' way (that's 'OT' ).

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[herne79]

27 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

x Herne79: That's your opinion marked as fact.

No, just fact.  It's fact that such coding doesn't exist, not opinion.

Anyway despite several requests to share your tactic and repeated notices that the thread will be closed if you don't share it (in order for you to get help), you refuse to post it, so thread now closed.  It's your own fault.