Tightening up

[LeeWHU888]

After some advice about how to set up away from home. This is how I'm setting up at home which is yielding great football and results. Away from home, it was all going well but in last few games I've started to struggle, tried a few things but nothing seems t be working so hoping someone can throw some ideas my way. We're still quite dangerous going forward, we always seem to score but we are so open, having 20-25 shots against me each game and obviously, the chances of us conceding are much higher. It's hard enough going away from home without gifting the opposition chance after chance.

Is it possible to keep the same formation and be tight or do I drop the 2 wingers back to the midfield?

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

When I look at your left side - both the WB and MEZ on attack duties - I am not surprised that you are so vulnerable defensively. Add to this the Focus play down the (both) flanks TIs, and you have a recipe for disaster. Cautious mentality may mitigate this a bit, but I fear that "a bit" is far from enough. 

 

10 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

Is it possible to keep the same formation and be tight or do I drop the 2 wingers back to the midfield?

You don't have to change the formation. Instead, you need to create a more sensible tactic within the existing formation.

But the first thing you need to ask yourself is: what style of football do I want my team to play and - even more importantly - why (that particular style and not some other)? 

On the other hand, 4th in the EPL is a clear overachievement for a team like WHU (irrespective of the tactical flaws).

[LeeWHU888]

It seems to work at home, but like I say, when we go away we're so open. I've tried changing the roles of the full backs and sitting in a bit but nothing seems to work.

Ideally, I'd like to be solid defensively but quick on the break when we win the ball. Although we've done ok this season, we're not good enough to go and dominate away from home so just wanna be a bit more solid and try to hit teams on break. 

FWIW, we're 4th at minute but it's a bit distorted, I'm a point in front of 5th and 5 in front of 6th but they both have 2 games in hand but still pretty happy with how things are going, I'm hoping if we can sort away form out and be able to pick up a few more points on the road, we might be able to challenge for 4th but at the very least being able to hold onto 6th. @Experienced Defender

Edited September 25, 2019 by LeeWHU888

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

It seems to work at home, but like I say, when we go away we're so open. I've tried changing the roles of the full backs and sitting in a bit but nothing seems to work.

Ideally, I'd like to be solid defensively but quick on the break when we win the ball. Although we've done ok this season, we're not good enough to go and dominate away from home so just wanna be a bit more solid and try to hit teams on break. 

FWIW, we're 4th at minute but it's a bit distorted, I'm a point in front of 5th and 5 in front of 6th but they both have 2 games in hand but still pretty happy with how things are going, I'm hoping if we can sort away form out and be able to pick up a few more points on the road, we might be able to challenge for 4th but at the very least being able to hold onto 6th. @Experienced Defender

May I ask you what's exactly your idea with playing on the cautious mentality? Or what's the reasoning behind it (if you will)? 

I am asking this because WHU certainly isn't an underdog in the EPL (and even being an underdog does not necessarily imply playing on a low-risk mentality).

[LeeWHU888]

11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

May I ask you what's exactly your idea with playing on the cautious mentality? Or what's the reasoning behind it (if you will)? 

I am asking this because WHU certainly isn't an underdog in the EPL (and even being an underdog does not necessarily imply playing on a low-risk mentality).

I started out on positive, was playing great but performances started to drop and I've had this in the past when I've started well, then teams set up differently and I struggle. Once it started to drop, I tried playing cautiously at home and it worked wonders and I've stuck with it since. But again, at home all is well but no matter what I do away, I can't get anything to work and I know I'll tinker so much that eventually I'll just end up so confused and give up lol

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

I started out on positive, was playing great but performances started to drop and I've had this in the past when I've started well, then teams set up differently and I struggle. Once it started to drop, I tried playing cautiously at home and it worked wonders and I've stuck with it since. But again, at home all is well but no matter what I do away, I can't get anything to work and I know I'll tinker so much that eventually I'll just end up so confused and give up lol

Well, rather than making so big changes to mentality - and going from Positive to Cautious is a very big change, given that the mentality affects everything (else) - I would opt for the Balanced, which is much easier to handle once you need to tweak the tactic in order to adapt to new circumstances. 

[LeeWHU888]

23 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, rather than making so big changes to mentality - and going from Positive to Cautious is a very big change, given that the mentality affects everything (else) - I would opt for the Balanced, which is much easier to handle once you need to tweak the tactic in order to adapt to new circumstances. 

Ok so I'll change mentality to balanced, reign in the LCM and LWB, anything else I need to be looking at?

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, LeeWHU888 said:

Ok so I'll change mentality to balanced, reign in the LCM and LWB, anything else I need to be looking at?

There probably will be some more tweaks you'll need to make, but take it step by step. Do this first (i.e. the mentality and the left flank issue), see what happens and then we can discuss further potential changes. Don't make too many (or to big( changes at once, that's a general principle. I basically know how I would play with this WHU team, but that's not the point. The point is that you yourself create a well-balanced and consistent tactic that can work on a regular basis with only minor occasional tweaks.

[LeeWHU888]

On 26/09/2019 at 22:37, Experienced Defender said:

There probably will be some more tweaks you'll need to make, but take it step by step. Do this first (i.e. the mentality and the left flank issue), see what happens and then we can discuss further potential changes. Don't make too many (or to big( changes at once, that's a general principle. I basically know how I would play with this WHU team, but that's not the point. The point is that you yourself create a well-balanced and consistent tactic that can work on a regular basis with only minor occasional tweaks.

Getting thumped still. This game is a complete joke at times. 

Issues arising now are:

1- Players are not closing down, if we attempt a long cross field pass, the opposition are on it in a shot, my players sprint towards it, get to within 5 yards then decided "nah  can't be arsed" and stand off. When we do close down, we put no pressure on ball, it's more chase the ball, get close, stand them up. Problem is, 2 players run towards ball, opposition just flick it round them to a player in space.

2- Players are not tackling, opposition players will pick the ball up and will just drive through my midfield and defence.

3- Players seem to have picked up a habit of a heavy touch, ball comes into them, take a touch, knock it too far in front, opposition nick ball and we're on back foot

4- Playing poor passes and not turning on ball. So many times we mess around with it, I know I have play out of defence we literally pass to players with their backs to goal, straight away forced into a backwards pass before getting it back to GK who thumps it long and we lose the ball

5- Players get the ball in and around the box, the instruction is to work the ball into the box, the full backs have moved up and are in acres of space yet the ball get passed around 3 players, all under pressure before a long shot that goes miles over the bar. Why not use the full backs out in space.

6- We have a corner, ball is cleared midway into their half, my CBs run back, my midfielder on edge of box just stands around watching it, opposition striker drops all the way in unchallenged, picks ball up and we get countered. What's the point of telling players to counter press if they're just going to stand there or drop deep.

7- Opposition corners- Whoever I put on the edge of box is so static. I've watched this a few times now and each time they're facing my goal (why?!) the corner is taken to the player on edge of box, my player on EOB will not move until the opposition player has received the ball, as he receives it, my player turns and tries to press, by this point, the player has had time to do what he wants with it.

There's probably more but tbh, I can't be arsed with it, yet again in the 1st season I've created something that works and we manage to finish 5th and get Europe, yet in the 2nd season,it all falls apart and we suddenly can't play football.

Edited October 2, 2019 by herne79
language

[herne79]

@LeeWHU888  This is a family forum.  We turn a blind eye to the odd slip, but please don't use so much bad language again.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, LeeWHU888 said:

6- We have a corner, ball is cleared midway into their half, my CBs run back, my midfielder on edge of box just stands around watching it, opposition striker drops all the way in unchallenged, picks ball up and we get countered. What's the point of telling players to counter press if they're just going to stand there or drop deep

Counter-press does not apply to defenders - they don't participate in counter-pressing. Btw, you said that your "CBs run back". Are your CBs the ones that are instructed to stay back when your team have a corner? 

 

1 hour ago, LeeWHU888 said:

7- Opposition corners- Whoever I put on the edge of box is so static. I've watched this a few times now and each time they're facing my goal (why?!) the corner is taken to the player on edge of box, my player on EOB will not move until the opposition player has received the ball, as he receives it, my player turns and tries to press, by this point, the player has had time to do what he wants with it

Do you check the relevant attributes of your player who is told to mark the edge of the box (area)? Does he have good/decent anticipation, aggression, concentration and at least some acceleration? 

 

1 hour ago, LeeWHU888 said:

5- Players get the ball in and around the box, the instruction is to work the ball into the box, the full backs have moved up and are in acres of space yet the ball get passed around 3 players, all under pressure before a long shot that goes miles over the bar. Why not use the full backs out in space

Well, the Work ball into box TI actually encourages the behavior you described (more often than not). And this instruction can often be a double-edged sword. But without taking a look at your (current/new) tactic as a whole, one instruction alone means little, if anything. 

[Guerin]

On 25/09/2019 at 20:46, LeeWHU888 said:

We're still quite dangerous going forward, we always seem to score but we are so open,

The advanced fwd is quite an aggressive striking role. Away from home it might be handy to use a DLFa instead. Someone just to hold the ball up a little and relieve some pressure. Give your midfield a chance to move up the pitch.

 

On 02/10/2019 at 22:53, LeeWHU888 said:

There's probably more but tbh, I can't be arsed with it, yet again in the 1st season I've created something that works and we manage to finish 5th and get Europe, yet in the 2nd season,it all falls apart and we suddenly can't play football.

If your tactic and your players haven't changed then it must be the opposition that's changed.

How are they setting up against you? What type of goals are you conceding? Are you still making good chances or not?

 

[Svenc]

On 25/09/2019 at 21:46, LeeWHU888 said:

having 20-25 shots against me each game and obviously, the chances of us conceding are much higher. 

As an ado: Depends a bit what the shots on each side of the pitch actually are like (in the box/out of the box // set piece / open Play // centrally within space // no space, header vs shot etc.).  This sequence was not a fluke. The low number of "Long shots" as well as the high percentage of shots going on target hints at was going on here. (spoiler: Leicester playing a direct counter style of Football; as the AI conceded the 0-1 in each match, which admittedly takes a bit "luck", the AI went even more aggressive in each of those, up to having not even its own attacking Corners protected anymore).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/sports/soccer/burnley-arsenal-premier-league.html

 

Mind you, FM's "chances" stats have never been particularly helpful on that. (They may even make human managed Teams shy away off ever playing counter attacking/defensive Football -- the AI Managers meanwhile don't care About "shots").

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Svenc

[Svenc]

Speaking About which, what if in your first Season you were also a tad lucky? Results always Cloud one's perception of Things. This goes in particular as to FM's match highlight, as each one may naturally start with mistake or easy turnover, or it wouldn't have been flagged as highlight in the playthrough. Some of those perceived issues may have already actually exist in the first Season, however Nothing came off them for the opposition. Results after all in a low scoring Sports as footie in particular are tricky… If some of that wouldn't be in the game, I'd be disappointed, Football Simulation game and all. A single Season in the Grand scheme of things is like a flash in the pan. 


Oh an speaking of, I doubt that Westham can have a Squad 2nd Season that can consistently break into the top of the table -- or should. There will be several Teams either way with at least equal squads or much much better. If you'd simply persisted, you'd be likely getting there. Speaking About the influence of "randomness": Whilst West Ham currently are sitting at an impressive spot in the tables, I personally expect them to come down from that significantly more likely than not (the data on their current Season Shows them as the 2nd highest "overperformers" in Terms of Performance).

You may also enjoy (and considerin West Ham, finding yourself) in this.
 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Svenc

[LeeWHU888]

I gave up with it. I think I'm done with FM. It used to be fun, it's become so complex over the years and I just want to plug in and play, I really haven't got the time to sit and work things out and then when things go wrong sit there, watch the games to find out what the issue is and rectify it. I've tried the touch version of FM but even though that is more plug and play, it just doesn't feel right for me. 

[Svenc]

I'd see this from a different perspective, but that's me. For as Long as you cannot get fairly average Squads consistently into the top of the tables (in a good Football Management game to me that shouldn't be possible anyhow, as what's the Point of Building Teams then?), the game still has some longevithy. Plus see it from the other perspective, what's the Point if this was this easily doable, and where does that leave anybody who would rather like a more "realistic" save Progression? They would need to proactively Sabotage themselves to get that (which many do anyway, for instance, by only signing foreign Players/bringing them up through the youth etc).

Besides, if the game were a Simulation of Football, you could still do Nothing much wrong, and have bad spells of results. 90 minutes of kicking, barely a "point" scored, so but a couple seconds eventually deciding over winner and loser -- the rest of all that kicking accounging for nought.  (Some of that is part of the game anyhow -- that is for as Long as you aren't miles ahead of the AI, and Matches, just in Football, tend to be settled in slighter margins -- not seldom involving Moments of randomness).

If your idea of "fun" is getting West Ham into Europe consistently straight off the bat, without any much slumping, and without ever thinking much, there's still ways to do that.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Svenc

[LeeWHU888]

9 hours ago, Svenc said:

I'd see this from a different perspective, but that's me. For as Long as you cannot get fairly average Squads consistently into the top of the tables (in a good Football Management game to me that shouldn't be possible anyhow, as what's the Point of Building Teams then?), the game still has some longevithy. Plus see it from the other perspective, what's the Point if this was this easily doable, and where does that leave anybody who would rather like a more "realistic" save Progression? They would need to proactively Sabotage themselves to get that (which many do anyway, for instance, by only signing foreign Players/bringing them up through the youth etc).

Besides, if the game were a Simulation of Football, you could still do Nothing much wrong, and have bad spells of results. 90 minutes of kicking, barely a "point" scored, so but a couple seconds eventually deciding over winner and loser -- the rest of all that kicking accounging for nought.  (Some of that is part of the game anyhow -- that is for as Long as you aren't miles ahead of the AI, and Matches, just in Football, tend to be settled in slighter margins -- not seldom involving Moments of randomness).

If your idea of "fun" is getting West Ham into Europe consistently straight off the bat, without any much slumping, and without ever thinking much, there's still ways to do that.

I don't expect to get us into Europe straight away, my main bit of fun when playing FM is the infrastructure of the club, getting finances sorted, building up the facilities and slowly growing a club, that's my enjoyment. I didn't expect to get into Europe in my 1st season, that was an over achievement. My issue has been a constant in most of my games played not just on FM19 but probably 17 and 18 too, I think 16 was the last successful game I had. On the whole, I can take charge of whichever club I choose and in the 1st season can perform pretty well, I get to the summer and I sign better players for the tactic I use but as I've had a good season, teams see me as a more dangerous proposition and then set up differently against me, performances slowly drop, results go against me then I chop and change so much trying to figure it out that I just get lost in a mess of tactics and compound the issue. 

As I said at the top, the tactic was working well, we was playing great football in the 1st season. I had 3 tactics being trained but the main tactic worked so well home and away that I didn't really need to change. 2nd season it was just the away form that was suspect, I tried tinkering a bit but after winning away on day 1, we've gone 11 games on the road without a win in the league, we've now stopped looking dangerous and instead we always look like we're going to concede. I've tried various things to try and change it but nothing seems to be working and obviously the more I chop and change, the deeper into a rut I'm getting. If I sit higher up pitch we get done over the top so I drop the line but then when we win the ball, we're too far deep yet I'masking them to play out from back and shorter passing so we play into trouble, so i tried longer passing but then we were hitting long balls over the top but my striker wouldn't even attempt to challenge for it or it would just be pumped out and collected by their CB. So I went normal line, and tried again to no avail.

So after a few changes the whole idea of how I wanted to play has gone and I'm now at a point where I'm just making changes to try to deal with the issues coming at me, but then, by trying to adjust for the opposition, I've gone away from my style I want and I don't know how to instruct them to play because I don't have an idea myself.

[Guerin]

1 hour ago, LeeWHU888 said:

teams see me as a more dangerous proposition and then set up differently against me, performances slowly drop, results go against me then I chop and change so much trying to figure it out that I just get lost in a mess of tactics and compound the issue. 

When opposition teams start to defend deep the Advanced Fwd is a role that suffers more than any other imo. After the Advanced fwd its direct, fast style of play. Generally you need to be a bit smarter with possession once teams start defending deep. You could build that into your existing tactic without sacrificing your style too much. But yeah, FM is fustrating.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Guerin

[lferreira]

2 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

I don't expect to get us into Europe straight away, my main bit of fun when playing FM is the infrastructure of the club, getting finances sorted, building up the facilities and slowly growing a club, that's my enjoyment. I didn't expect to get into Europe in my 1st season, that was an over achievement. My issue has been a constant in most of my games played not just on FM19 but probably 17 and 18 too, I think 16 was the last successful game I had. On the whole, I can take charge of whichever club I choose and in the 1st season can perform pretty well, I get to the summer and I sign better players for the tactic I use but as I've had a good season, teams see me as a more dangerous proposition and then set up differently against me, performances slowly drop, results go against me then I chop and change so much trying to figure it out that I just get lost in a mess of tactics and compound the issue. 

As I said at the top, the tactic was working well, we was playing great football in the 1st season. I had 3 tactics being trained but the main tactic worked so well home and away that I didn't really need to change. 2nd season it was just the away form that was suspect, I tried tinkering a bit but after winning away on day 1, we've gone 11 games on the road without a win in the league, we've now stopped looking dangerous and instead we always look like we're going to concede. I've tried various things to try and change it but nothing seems to be working and obviously the more I chop and change, the deeper into a rut I'm getting. If I sit higher up pitch we get done over the top so I drop the line but then when we win the ball, we're too far deep yet I'masking them to play out from back and shorter passing so we play into trouble, so i tried longer passing but then we were hitting long balls over the top but my striker wouldn't even attempt to challenge for it or it would just be pumped out and collected by their CB. So I went normal line, and tried again to no avail.

So after a few changes the whole idea of how I wanted to play has gone and I'm now at a point where I'm just making changes to try to deal with the issues coming at me, but then, by trying to adjust for the opposition, I've gone away from my style I want and I don't know how to instruct them to play because I don't have an idea myself.

Why don't you go back to the tactics that brought you success and make minor adjustments then? I know it's easier said than done, but I can tell you I fell pray to the same things and the more you change, the worse it gets.

It's a better idea to fiddle with defensive line and LOE settings plus tempo/directness than changing roles and duties, or even formations for every single match when things go south.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Guerin said:

When opposition teams start to defend deep the Advanced Fwd is a role that suffers more than any other imo

Especially when it's a lone striker.

[Svenc]

11 hours ago, LeeWHU888 said:

I don't expect to get us into Europe straight away, my main bit of fun when playing FM is the infrastructure of the club, getting finances sorted, building up the facilities and slowly growing a club, that's my enjoyment. 

Sign a decent assistant and let him do the matching. Alternatively, feature request improved tactical assistant managing. (I agree that goingn on Holiday and letting the ass man handle match day isn't quite compelling, even though it can be successful -- there should be a middle Ground, no less as actual Managers depending on which work with tactical assistants proper in real Football). There's no much enjoyment delving ever deeper into tactics if that isn't your forte -- even if the tactical Things the game rewards as such, from my end, are mostly fairly "Basic" stuff. Naturally, just chopping Things around just compounds to that. I'd wager the guess that sides on this too can't Play all that "badly" -- and still lose as Football Matches tend to be decided within pitifully seconds of Play. So Looking for the definitive "tactical" reason why you've just lost the last two Matches likely may be no much fun in combination.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Svenc