Tottenham Save

[The Roaming Regista]

I have decided to begin FM19 with my team, Tottenham. I am a massive fan of Pep's style of football, so have included some of his ideas as you can probably tell, however, it's not meant to be a recreation of City by any means.

Haven't play any games with it yet, but I would appreciate it if you could make any suggestions as to what I can improve/fix, as I am pretty new to the franchise.

[Experienced Defender]

I would suggest being a bit more restrained with duties of your most advanced players. For example, I like your setup of the back 4 and midfield 3, but would change the duties of the winger (AMR) and the striker from attack to support, and not (only) for defensive reasons but to make them more involved in the build-up phase. In this particular setup, I would even consider changing Kane's role from CF to F9 or DLF. Lloris also might be problematic as a SK on attack duty. I managed Spurs in FM18 and his attributes did not suggest at all that playing him as a SK on attack (or even support) would be a good idea. And I suppose his attributes haven't dramatically changed in FM19.

As for your team instructions, I think your defensive (out of possession) section of the tactic is overly aggressive, which not only makes your defense potentially vulnerable but also reduces the space in the attacking third for your players when attacking and attempting a counter-attack. 

In transition, the TIs are more or less okay, except that I'm not sure you should use counter-press all the time. 

Finally, in possession - too many instructions at the same time tend to cause trouble, unless you are a tactical genius (like Rashidi) that perfectly knows when and why to use each instruction. What I would personally immediately remove from your (starting) tactic is - dribble less, narrow(er) width and focus play through the middle.

P.S: I hope you don't intend to use this tactic against top teams (City, LFC, Utd, Chelsea...) without any tweaks that would make it less attacking and aggressive.

[Hoosier_76]

I'm gonna echo what the post above me said. I think you're midfield setup is fine, but I'd play the winger on support and Kane as a DLFs. ( Nothing to do with this tactic, but both Son and Lozano make great Raumdeuters.)

You definitely need to drop your defensive line. Outside of Sanchez there's not a lot of pace/acceleration in the spurs defense. Also, why are you playing low crosses to Kane?

[The Roaming Regista]

7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would suggest being a bit more restrained with duties of your most advanced players. For example, I like your setup of the back 4 and midfield 3, but would change the duties of the winger (AMR) and the striker from attack to support, and not (only) for defensive reasons but to make them more involved in the build-up phase. In this particular setup, I would even consider changing Kane's role from CF to F9 or DLF. Lloris also might be problematic as a SK on attack duty. I managed Spurs in FM18 and his attributes did not suggest at all that playing him as a SK on attack (or even support) would be a good idea. And I suppose his attributes haven't dramatically changed in FM19.

As for your team instructions, I think your defensive (out of possession) section of the tactic is overly aggressive, which not only makes your defense potentially vulnerable but also reduces the space in the attacking third for your players when attacking and attempting a counter-attack. 

In transition, the TIs are more or less okay, except that I'm not sure you should use counter-press all the time. 

Finally, in possession - too many instructions at the same time tend to cause trouble, unless you are a tactical genius (like Rashidi) that perfectly knows when and why to use each instruction. What I would personally immediately remove from your (starting) tactic is - dribble less, narrow(er) width and focus play through the middle.

P.S: I hope you don't intend to use this tactic against top teams (City, LFC, Utd, Chelsea...) without any tweaks that would make it less attacking and aggressive.

Have made some changes with TIs using your suggestions and to involve Kane in the buildup and have the two IFs make the runs in behind.

 

Would you suggest a normal defensive line and line of engagement then?

 

I have minor adjustments for matches against the top 6 that I would make, only played 3 so far but managed to beat Chelsea 4-0 using the original system but slightly more reserved, although the chances weren’t exactly from beautiful football. 

 

 

[SD]

Midfield setup is definitely fine as it is, I successfully used Eriksen as AP(S) for a long time, but RPM is a whole other level. He has good playmaking attributes, but where stands out among other playmakers and makes him world class is his outrageous values for teamwork, workrate and stamina so using him in a static role is a bit underplaying these strengths.

Also, personally in the DM slot I use a HB or a DLP(D), depending on the opposition's formation, and I can go at depth into why if you're interested to hear the nuances, but again, DM(D) should definitely work just as well.

Where I strongly object is your choice of roles for the three up top. I'm sure others will disagree but I found there are two ways you can set up your attack in a possession based 4-5-1. Either with one or possibly two attacking wide forwards(IF, RMD), paired with a support duty centre forward such as a F9 or DLF(S), or an attack duty centre forward paired with two support duty wide players such as IF/IF or IF/W. In the former case the midfield needs to be more static(AP, DLP, BWM), while in the latter you want a more dynamic midfield, with roaming roles and preferably one attacking duty(CM(A) or MEZ). In the case of Spurs I think the 2nd setup is definitely preferable, as your central players(Kane, Eriksen, Alli) are far superior to the wide players, both in the starting squad and what you can bring in at game start.

Defence-wise, it is true neither Alderweireld nor Vertonghen are particularly pacy and furthermore, their defensive skills are not world class either, but where they shine is their ball playing skills, so all in all a high defensive line is still better than the alternatives. 

[SD]

6 minutes ago, The Roaming Regista said:

 

I just noticed your post as I was typing mine, the new iteration of the tactic looks a lot better.

I'd drop the tempo at least a notch, though(personally I use -1 notch on positive mentality).

Also, pass into space is does not go well with a possession setup, it's a speculative TI that will see you lose possession more often and Spurs squad lacks the pace to benefit from it.

The only glaring issue left is with the engagement line, unless you are trying to draw out a vastly inferior opposition parking the bus, you need to match a high def line with a high line of engagement to prevent precise balls over your defence and force the opposition to hoof the ball instead.

[The Roaming Regista]

7 minutes ago, SD said:

I just noticed your post as I was typing mine, the new iteration of the tactic looks a lot better.

I'd drop the tempo at least a notch, though(personally I use -1 notch on positive mentality).

Also, pass into space is does not go well with a possession setup, it's a speculative TI that will see you lose possession more often and Spurs squad lacks the pace to benefit from it.

The only glaring issue left is with the engagement line, unless you are trying to draw out a vastly inferior opposition parking the bus, you need to match a high def line with a high line of engagement to prevent precise balls over your defence and force the opposition to hoof the ball instead.

Hello, apologies was busy so could only quickly drop in the screenshot, but thank you for these replies.

 

Do you think it would be better for me to drop my defensive line by 1 or to increase the line of engagement by 1; as the others above have said, dropping your line of engagement can help draw out the opposition to allow for more space to attack on transitions, which is what I was intending. And yes I see what you mean about the “pass into space”, will change that as well as dropping the tempo to normal, and work from there.

[The Roaming Regista]

3 hours ago, Hoosier_76 said:

I'm gonna echo what the post above me said. I think you're midfield setup is fine, but I'd play the winger on support and Kane as a DLFs. ( Nothing to do with this tactic, but both Son and Lozano make great Raumdeuters.)

You definitely need to drop your defensive line. Outside of Sanchez there's not a lot of pace/acceleration in the spurs defense. Also, why are you playing low crosses to Kane?

Interesting point, how would the raumdeuters movement differ to the IF, as I ideally want them to make lots of runs in behind to stretch the defence. And yes I will have a look at the defensive line, and select mixed crosses.

[SD]

Personally, these these are the two variations I'm using. First is vs similar strength opposition, 2nd is vs weaker opposition. 

Vs team parking the bus I use overlap and focus play for both flanks, as well as instruct the IFs to sit narrower. This will lower the mentality and instruct the IF's to hold up the ball, while at the same time bring the mentality of the support duty wingbacks to very attacking, without having to use the duty that comes with increased crossing and dribbling.

Another adjustment I often make in these instances is to give stopper duty to one or even both CBs and give them the dribble more PI. The mentality is still low enough that they won't make them try to take on opponents one, but what you will see them a lot doing is advancing with the ball to draw one or two opposition players enough to free up a passing option.

[SD]

2 minutes ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Interesting point, how would the raumdeuters movement differ to the IF, as I ideally want them to make lots of runs in behind to stretch the defence. And yes I will have a look at the defensive line, and select mixed crosses.

Cross type depends on the opposition in my opinion. Kane can hold his own in the air but he's by no means a beast. So I still go low crosses vs Lpool's VvD, for instance.

[The Roaming Regista]

5 minutes ago, SD said:

Personally, these these are the two variations I'm using. First is vs similar strength opposition, 2nd is vs weaker opposition. 

Vs team parking the bus I use overlap and focus play for both flanks, as well as instruct the IFs to sit narrower. This will lower the mentality and instruct the IF's to hold up the ball, while at the same time bring the mentality of the support duty wingbacks to very attacking, without having to use the duty that comes with increased crossing and dribbling.

Another adjustment I often make in these instances is to give stopper duty to one or even both CBs and give them the dribble more PI. The mentality is still low enough that they won't make them try to take on opponents one, but what you will see them a lot doing is advancing with the ball to draw one or two opposition players enough to free up a passing option.

Interested to know where most of your chances come from, if the IFs tends to hold up the ball. Is it pretty much all from crosses by the wing backs?

[SD]

9 minutes ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Hello, apologies was busy so could only quickly drop in the screenshot, but thank you for these replies.

 

Do you think it would be better for me to drop my defensive line by 1 or to increase the line of engagement by 1; as the others above have said, dropping your line of engagement can help draw out the opposition to allow for more space to attack on transitions, which is what I was intending. And yes I see what you mean about the “pass into space”, will change that as well as dropping the tempo to normal, and work from there.

I'd say definitely increase the line of engagement as a default, dropping the LoE to draw out the opposition is an adjustment you can make in specific situations, but it does have trade offs and done against Leicester's or Bournemouth's pacy forwards will quickly get you punished on the counter.

Another aspect is that vs some formations the 4-5-1 will simply not cut it and you might have to change the formation altogether, such as vs Conte's 5-2-3 Wide for example.

[The Roaming Regista]

10 minutes ago, SD said:

I'd say definitely increase the line of engagement as a default, dropping the LoE to draw out the opposition is an adjustment you can make in specific situations, but it does have trade offs and done against Leicester's or Bournemouth's pacy forwards will quickly get you punished on the counter.

Another aspect is that vs some formations the 4-5-1 will simply not cut it and you might have to change the formation altogether, such as vs Conte's 5-2-3 Wide for example.

How can you tell whether you need to change formation or not? 

[Hoosier_76]

15 minutes ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Interesting point, how would the raumdeuters movement differ to the IF, as I ideally want them to make lots of runs in behind to stretch the defence. And yes I will have a look at the defensive line, and select mixed crosses.

The two roles aren't all that different. RMDs are constantly on the move trying to find space and they move into channels which can certainly open up defenses. I find they offer more variation to attacks but the downside is they do less defensively. 

[SD]

1 minute ago, The Roaming Regista said:

How can you tell whether you need to change or not? 

Heatmap and average positioning are the most important for me. It shows what areas of the pitch they're most active in, where you need to reinforce and where you can afford to weaken.

13 minutes ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Interested to know where most of your chances come from, if the IFs tends to hold up the ball. Is it pretty much all from crosses by the wing backs?

On the contrary, this is a map of the shots from a cup match vs Cardiff, I'd say it strikes a good balance.

 

 

[The Roaming Regista]

Just now, Hoosier_76 said:

The two roles aren't all that different. RMDs are constantly on the move trying to find space and they move into channels which can certainly open up defenses. I find they offer more variation to attacks but the downside is they do less defensively. 

Might try one as a RMD and one as an IF, which out of Lozano and Son do you think would be best at RMD

[The Roaming Regista]

1 minute ago, SD said:

Heatmap and average positioning are the most important for me. It shows what areas of the pitch they're most active in, where you need to reinforce and where you can afford to weaken.

On the contrary, this is a map of the shots from a cup match vs Cardiff, I'd say it strikes a good balance.

 

 

And that was with overlaps selected as well as focus play on the flanks? Did sitting the IFs narrower allow closer passing then to create chances in the centre

[SD]

1 minute ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Might try one as a RMD and one as an IF, which out of Lozano and Son do you think would be best at RMD

I'd say definitely Son, weaker dribbling but better off the ball movement and shooting than Lozano.

[SD]

Just now, The Roaming Regista said:

And that was with overlaps selected as well as focus play on the flanks? Did sitting the IFs narrower allow closer passing then to create chances in the centre

Yes, overlaps and focus play on both flanks. Both CBs were on stopper duty and instructed to dribble more.

IFs were positioned by default, I usually instruct them to sit narrower when the opposition doesn't field a DM, for instance in a flat 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1.

[Hoosier_76]

1 minute ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Might try one as a RMD and one as an IF, which out of Lozano and Son do you think would be best at RMD

Oh, yeah, definitely don't use two RMDs haha Son's got the better off the ball and work rate so I'd use him first. In my head I was thinking you'd rotate the two of them at the position and play someone else on the other wing.

That they can be good raumdeuters was just an observation I made. IFa on the left wing should work just fine you definitely need a support duty on the right wing though.

[The Roaming Regista]

7 minutes ago, Hoosier_76 said:

Oh, yeah, definitely don't use two RMDs haha Son's got the better off the ball and work rate so I'd use him first. In my head I was thinking you'd rotate the two of them at the position and play someone else on the other wing.

That they can be good raumdeuters was just an observation I made. IFa on the left wing should work just fine you definitely need a support duty on the right wing though.

Maybe Son RMD on the left with Lozano as an IF (s) on the right. Not sure which side to play Eriksen (RPM S) and Dele (Mez A) as IRL Eriksen prefers to drift around the right so that he can swing balls in on his right which he seems to prefer to use. But here I’m worried that Dele will occupy one of the wide forwards’ space. Should I put Dele on the RMD side or the IF (s) side?

[The Roaming Regista]

7 minutes ago, SD said:

Yes, overlaps and focus play on both flanks. Both CBs were on stopper duty and instructed to dribble more.

IFs were positioned by default, I usually instruct them to sit narrower when the opposition doesn't field a DM, for instance in a flat 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1.

Interesting point, more space between the lines. I will definitely also experiment with the stopper and dribble more PI on the CBs

[SD]

Just now, The Roaming Regista said:

Interesting point, more space between the lines. I will definitely also experiment with the stopper and dribble more PI on the CBs

About the stopper adjustment, it goes without saying that:

1. Your defenders need good mentals and decent passing/technique. Not necessarily dribbling, a bit counter-intuitively, as they will never actually take on anyone, just advance with the ball the way the way many modern defenders do IRL(Sanchez often did this tonight IRL). All four of Spurs starting defenders are more than capable of this playstyle, but it's not something I would use with someone like Smalling.

2. It work best against isolated strikers with poor mobility. Do not try it vs Liverpool's 4 man high press.

[The Roaming Regista]

1 minute ago, SD said:

About the stopper adjustment, it goes without saying that:

1. Your defenders need good mentals and decent passing/technique. Not necessarily dribbling, a bit counter-intuitively, as they will never actually take on anyone, just advance with the ball the way the way many modern defenders do IRL(Sanchez often did this tonight IRL). All four of Spurs starting defenders are more than capable of this playstyle, but it's not something I would use with someone like Smalling.

2. It work best against isolated strikers with poor mobility. Do not try it vs Liverpool's 4 man high press.

Yes that makes sense, Jan also did this a lot last season, I often think our defenders could do this more than they do!

[The Roaming Regista]

6 minutes ago, SD said:

About the stopper adjustment, it goes without saying that:

1. Your defenders need good mentals and decent passing/technique. Not necessarily dribbling, a bit counter-intuitively, as they will never actually take on anyone, just advance with the ball the way the way many modern defenders do IRL(Sanchez often did this tonight IRL). All four of Spurs starting defenders are more than capable of this playstyle, but it's not something I would use with someone like Smalling.

2. It work best against isolated strikers with poor mobility. Do not try it vs Liverpool's 4 man high press.

If I could just get your view on my post just above about the roles of the wide midfielders and the sides of Dele and Eriksen I’d really appreciate it, then I will leave you alone 😂

Really appreciate your help btw, I’ve learned lots from this discussion 

 

 

[SD]

17 minutes ago, The Roaming Regista said:

If I could just get your view on my post just above about the roles of the wide midfielders and the sides of Dele and Eriksen I’d really appreciate it, then I will leave you alone 😂

Really appreciate your help btw, I’ve learned lots from this discussion 

 

 

Glad to hear you found this helpful.

Personally I prefer the attacking central forward/support wide forwards route, and I'm also not a big fan of the RMD role as I find it too rigid, so I don't have much experience with it.

Intuitively, though, I'd say the MEZ should be on the same flank with the RMD, as the latter would often find himself making runs in the box, although I would consider changing the MEZ duty to support in this case.

Other than that, I can't say I've noticed any difference to what side of the partnership Dele and Eriksen are playing as both of them are capable with both feet. You could even try instructing them to swap positions if you're feeling extra cheeky .

[The Roaming Regista]

5 minutes ago, SD said:

Glad to hear you found this helpful.

Personally I prefer the attacking central forward/support wide forwards route, and I'm also not a big fan of the RMD role as I find it too rigid, so I don't have much experience with it.

Intuitively, though, I'd say the MEZ should be on the same flank with the RMD, as the latter would often find himself making runs in the box, although I would consider changing the MEZ duty to support in this case.

Other than that, I can't say I've noticed any difference to what side of the partnership Dele and Eriksen are playing as both of them are capable with both feet. You could even try instructing them to swap positions if you're feeling extra cheeky .

Will have a play with the RMD/IF. Wait you can instruct to swap? How? Thought they removed that feature

 

EDIT: Nevermind, found it online. Thanks for  all your help and I’ll let you know how I get on in the next few days 😄

[SD]

Just now, The Roaming Regista said:

Will have a play with the RMD/IF. Wait you can instruct to swap? How? Thought they removed that feature

You can still do it from the Players tab in the tactics screen, select the position and there's a drop-down at the bottom.

I can't say I've found the feature that useful, though, as the two players wouldn't swap dynamically depending on where each phase of play finds them, they'd just take turns at filling eachother's role in spells of 10-15 mins. And if you do this to shake off a man-mark, the AI seems to react immediately, but I need to test this some more before I draw a definite conclusion.

[The Roaming Regista]

3 minutes ago, SD said:

You can still do it from the Players tab in the tactics screen, select the position and there's a drop-down at the bottom.

I can't say I've found the feature that useful, though, as the two players wouldn't swap dynamically depending on where each phase of play finds them, they'd just take turns at filling eachother's role in spells of 10-15 mins. And if you do this to shake off a man-mark, the AI seems to react immediately, but I need to test this some more before I draw a definite conclusion.

Ah ok, might have a go with this if I’m in the mood  again, thanks for all your great advice and will update in a few days with my thoughts and results

[SD]

1 minute ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Ah ok, might have a go with this if I’m in the mood  again, thanks for all your great advice and will update in a few days with my thoughts and results

Sure, best of luck, mate.

Looking forward to hear how it worked out for you.

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, The Roaming Regista said:

Would you suggest a normal defensive line and line of engagement then?

In FM18 I was usually playing with a normal d-line in my Spurs save, which does not mean a higher d-line would have been wrong (because 2 main CBs may not be particularly fast, but do possess good tactical intelligence). And I used a 4231 as my primary formation with Spurs (only on occasion switching to a 4321 wide). Now, in FM19 we have the LOE as an innovation. And if I managed Spurs again, I would probably start with this combination as part of my main tactic: standard DL / higher LOE / tighter marking / default pressing (medium setting), and then would see if any adjustment is needed based on what I see when watching the games. But I am someone who likes to experiment a lot and so I tend to make tweaks all the time (never too many at once, but step by step and cautiously), especially when I have such a great bunch of players like the Spurs. For example, I sometimes used Kane as a RMD on the left or Dele as a trequartista in various positions. In fact, these two guys are so good that they can play many different roles, provided of course these roles fit in well with the overall tactical setup.