Help Needed - Narrow Diamond - Creating Chances

[Amphibious]

Hi all.  I'm a former tactic downloader learning how to make my own things work.  Using Arsenal, I'm trying to get a possession-based narrow diamond 4-4-2 to perform better.  I wanted to use Auba-Lacazette together as a strike pair, and take advantage of the excellent passers in the midfield.

My current setup is:

Control - Fluid;  Play out of Defense, Roam from Position, Slower Tempo

     AFa      -     DLFs

               APs

     CMs    -   CMa

              DMs

FBa - CBd - CBd - FBa

The results have generally been good.  I'm seeing possession around 55% against good teams and near 70% against poor ones, and I win most of the games.  What I'm not happy with, though, are the scoring chances we're creating.  Rather than central through balls played into my speedy strikers, what usually happens is my midfielders pass around for a while until they run into a dead end at the opponent's box, pass out to a wide open FB, who crosses into a well-covered striker.   Corner, clearance, rinse, repeat.  Even in games where I get a lot of shots, they're usually low % crosses, and my strikers aren't they type who will win those battles most of the time.

I've tried a few things, but I haven't found the trick to improving the quality of our chances.

• I changed the LB/RB from WB to FB.  They were dribbling & losing possession too much, and I also wanted to reduce the crossing.  This helped a little, but they still tend to always be the open outlet once we get to the final 3rd.  
• I've tried setting up more structured based on Cleon's art of possession post.  I definitely noticed the additional space for the midfielders, and this may be the better approach.  But the chances created were still the same...low % crosses leading to goal kicks or corners.
• Various role changes for the STs and midfielders.  To be honest, I was really just throwing **** at the wall and hoping something would stick.

So, while my possession play goal is mostly achieved, I think the results have more to do with better players than better tactics.  Any advice would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

[djpdavey]

Your build up is too slow bodies are behind the ball before you've got to the box. I'd set back to a normal tempo and maybe throttle it up to slightly faster. Also, somehow you need a couple of runners to drag the opposition defence out of position.

[Cleon]

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Your build up is too slow bodies are behind the ball before you've got to the box.

Not true, he's actually very aggressive and will have bodies infront of the ball, he's playing on control. No way is his build up slow, especially with the roles he has. Even though he's used 'slower tempo' it's still faster than what it would be on a less aggressive mentality. It's just a slightly slower version of 'controls' tempo.

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I'd set back to a normal tempo and maybe throttle it up to slightly faster.

 

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Also, somehow you need a couple of runners to drag the opposition defence out of position.

He has runners, possible too many of them all in none dangerous areas. The issue is he has no-one taking advantage of them.

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What I'm not happy with, though, are the scoring chances we're creating. 

Without even looking at your other issues yet, this is because two of your front 3 are dropping deep or hanging back. You have a playmaker behind the 2 strikers yet one of the strikers drops deep and away from goal initially. This means that realistically your playmaker is creating mainly for the AF. Do you need 2 of your players dropping deep? Seems a bit of a waste to me if you persist with a playmaker. At the very least, look at a more pro active support role for the DLF and maybe consider a CF support instead.

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 Rather than central through balls played into my speedy strikers, what usually happens is my midfielders pass around for a while until they run into a dead end at the opponent's box, pass out to a wide open FB, who crosses into a well-covered striker. 

Your players are naturally high up the pitch due to using control mentality. So they'll be positioned higher and maybe too high for the midfield. Or they'll not be able to make any runs due to being advanced. I wrote about this a bit ago and while it's about a different formation, the point still stands and it goes for all shapes not just the 4231 deep I wrote about. Have a read of it here;

https://teaandbusquets.com/4-2-3-1-standard-vs-attacking-mentality

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I changed the LB/RB from WB to FB.  They were dribbling & losing possession too much, and I also wanted to reduce the crossing.  This helped a little, but they still tend to always be the open outlet once we get to the final 3rd.  

What's the main reason for using this shape and the ideas behind it? I'm asking because a big part of this shape is the wide play and the crossing it offers. That's actually one of the strengths of the tactic and one of its core principles. So if crossing and dribbling isn't what you was wanting, then maybe a different shape is more practical? After all, the wingbacks/full backs are the only wide players so they're encouraged to cross and dribble more than in most other formations.

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I've tried setting up more structured based on Cleon's art of possession post.  I definitely noticed the additional space for the midfielders, and this may be the better approach.  But the chances created were still the same...low % crosses leading to goal kicks or corners.

I still think some of the issues are due to you being aggressive and using control.

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Various role changes for the STs and midfielders.  To be honest, I was really just throwing **** at the wall and hoping something would stick.

Well what do you actually want from the tactic and what style? Possession isn't really a style nor a strategy as that's easy to achieve. But more so, what do you want to do with the ball when you're seeing a lot of it and how do you want that distributed? Answer this and it will basically give you the ideas for what you need to do.

I also wrote this and while it's a fw years old now, the principles and ideology are all still very relevant today and work.

 

[Amphibious]

Thanks for the input.  Like I said, this is a learning process for me.

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

What's the main reason for using this shape and the ideas behind it? I'm asking because a big part of this shape is the wide play and the crossing it offers. That's actually one of the strengths of the tactic and one of its core principles. So if crossing and dribbling isn't what you was wanting, then maybe a different shape is more practical? After all, the wingbacks/full backs are the only wide players so they're encouraged to cross and dribble more than in most other formations.

It's an experiment based on how I think Arsenal might set up next year with the players they've signed.  The starting point was the players I have, rather than a desired style of play (because I know more about the players than how to execute a particular style in FM).

• I wanted to play Aubameyang and Lacazette together as a strike pair, rather than setting up in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 with Lacazette wide.
• Arsenal have a lot of good midfielders who can pass the ball well in midfield, but not many natural wide attackers.  In my brain, Ozil made sense as the playmaker, and I figured a lot of the play would center around him distributing.  Ramsey would be the more aggressive runner on the right, and Xhaka hanging back in a supporting role on the left.  Torreira sweeping up as DM.  But was really just trying to keep the roles simple at first. 

I started with just the formation and Standard/Flexible, and through trial & error ended up here.  A lot of what I did was trying to squash bugs.

• I ended up with control because, as Arsenal, I expected to be better than our opponents most of the time, so I could afford to be more aggressive.  The idea was that I could dominate possession through pass & move play through the middle until the chance for a killer ball to the strikers opened up.  
• The WBs were losing possession constantly, either by getting tackled trying to dribble past their man, or by crossing into a well-defended box to strikers who aren't that strong in the air.  That's why I gave them the more conservative roles.  It's not that I'm against play going wide to the WB, but from what I was seeing, it was resulting in a lot of lost possession and poor quality chances.  Maybe I could instruct them to use low or whipped crosses, but I also thought the box was too crowded and the STs weren't really open.

Anyway, one step at a time.  I'll dial back to standard mentality and put the DLF in a more advanced role and see how that goes.

[SeanRTG]

8 minutes ago, Amphibious said:

 

• The WBs were losing possession constantly, either by getting tackled trying to dribble past their man, or by crossing into a well-defended box to strikers who aren't that strong in the air.  That's why I gave them the more conservative roles.  It's not that I'm against play going wide to the WB, but from what I was seeing, it was resulting in a lot of lost possession and poor quality chances.  Maybe I could instruct them to use low or whipped crosses, but I also thought the box was too crowded and the STs weren't really open.

 

I've had some success with low crosses and using a WB(S) and a WB(A) just so each side offers something an attacking threat but one is slightly more conservative. I would try a WB(A) on the side with the CM(S).

It might also be worth trying a Mezzala instead of your CM(A) (If you don't mind sacrificing a bit of defensive responsibility). I've found them to be a very effective attacking option.

[Experienced Defender]

On 10/07/2018 at 18:44, Amphibious said:

Hi all.  I'm a former tactic downloader learning how to make my own things work.  Using Arsenal, I'm trying to get a possession-based narrow diamond 4-4-2 to perform better.  I wanted to use Auba-Lacazette together as a strike pair, and take advantage of the excellent passers in the midfield.

My current setup is:

Control - Fluid;  Play out of Defense, Roam from Position, Slower Tempo

     AFa      -     DLFs

               APs

     CMs    -   CMa

              DMs

FBa - CBd - CBd - FBa

The results have generally been good.  I'm seeing possession around 55% against good teams and near 70% against poor ones, and I win most of the games.  What I'm not happy with, though, are the scoring chances we're creating.  Rather than central through balls played into my speedy strikers, what usually happens is my midfielders pass around for a while until they run into a dead end at the opponent's box, pass out to a wide open FB, who crosses into a well-covered striker.   Corner, clearance, rinse, repeat.  Even in games where I get a lot of shots, they're usually low % crosses, and my strikers aren't they type who will win those battles most of the time.

I've tried a few things, but I haven't found the trick to improving the quality of our chances.

• I changed the LB/RB from WB to FB.  They were dribbling & losing possession too much, and I also wanted to reduce the crossing.  This helped a little, but they still tend to always be the open outlet once we get to the final 3rd.  
• I've tried setting up more structured based on Cleon's art of possession post.  I definitely noticed the additional space for the midfielders, and this may be the better approach.  But the chances created were still the same...low % crosses leading to goal kicks or corners.
• Various role changes for the STs and midfielders.  To be honest, I was really just throwing **** at the wall and hoping something would stick.

So, while my possession play goal is mostly achieved, I think the results have more to do with better players than better tactics.  Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Given that I don't know which of your players occupy which position, I can only give you some basic suggestion based on the well-known quality of Arsenal and on what you'd like to achieve:

P    F9

APMa

BtBM     CAR

DLPs

IWBd    CD    BPD     FBa

Control+Fluid is a good idea IMO, so I would keep it for now.

TIs - shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, low or whipped crosses

GK - roll it out to fullbacks, fewer risky passes

FBa - run wide with ball

DLPs - more direct passing

BtBM - move into channels, get further forward (if he has good passing, vision, technique and decisions - maybe more risky passes, albeit not necessarily)

Both strikers and AMC(APMa) - close down more

[westy8chimp]

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Given that I don't know which of your players occupy which position, I can only give you some basic suggestion based on the well-known quality of Arsenal and on what you'd like to achieve:

P    F9

You are on commission for some sort of false 9 charity! How/why do you dig up these old posts

Its from months ago. 

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

You are on commission for some sort of false 9 charity! How/why do you dig up these old posts

Its from months ago.

Well, when there are not interesting new posts, I sometimes like to search older posts to see what kind of issues people have with their tactics and what is their overall line of reasoning, and then try to help if I can. Quite simple 

[kashfi_mohd]

i used a diamond  4 4 2 too, and I had quite a success using it in FM18 wih Everton. One of my beloved formations to be used too. My setup was:

AFa         CFs

APa

DLPs            MEZs

HBd

WBa     CDd     CDd    WBs

Mentality Control with Flexible shape.