Looking for help

[TheJanitor]

So, I finally got past January in FM18, playing with Liverpool. I'm far from doing badly, 3rd in the table, reached the League Cup final and in the CL knock-out stage. Even though things are going well in this department, I feel like I'm struggling at achieving the sort of identity I want my team to have. Play often feels cluncky and a bit forced. My main issue is that I'm not sure how to approach the tactics creator. I want to encourage a certain play but on the other side I don't want to force things. I just want to reach a point of balance.

Overall, I want to play a quick tempo sort of game both in defense and in attack. When out of possession I want my players to press high and in possession I want to move the ball from back to front with speed. I don't care about losing the possession battle as long as I use whatever possession I have to create quality chances. When looking at my side - Liverpool 1st season, only important transfer is orignally Virgil Van Dijk - I think my most out-right dangerous attackers are Mohamed Salah and Sadio Mane. Both are supremely quick (18 Pace and Acceleration for Salah, 18 Pace and 17 Acceleration for Mane), good finishers (Salah has 16, Mane has 15) and great off the ball (15 for Mane while Salah is world class with 18 and his Anticipation is 18 as well). I also have Roberto Firmino who I feel has the right attributes to be a creative, hold-up striker (15 Balance, 14 Strength, 16 Composure, 14 Desicion, 17 First Touch). All this leads to the popular False 9 with Inside Forward combo but I don't want go down that rabit hole so quickly. I always struggle with this sort of set-up. Then I thought about a 2-2 sort of set-up, kind of inspired by Arsenal's invincibles. Salah as the leading forward stretching the opposition defensive line while Firmino drops deep to link play. Coutinho as either a playmaker or an inverted winger and Mane stretching play on the opposite flank. This could probably work as a 3-1 with Firmino in the middle of the 3. Something that looks like this:

---------AF---------

--WP/AP--DLF/AM--W--

So I feel like I know how I want my attack to opperate, but I'm not sure about how to translate it to the TC. Not sure what right combination of duties to start with. Also not sure how I should support my attack with my midfield and defense. I also am not sure how to start with giving instructions as well as designating Shape and Mentality.

Now, I'm not looking for someone to just "build me a tactic", but rather help me get started and direct me in the right way. Any sort of help will be massive!

[Dr. Hook]

As a starting point for roles and duties, the first thing I would do is look at how I want to the play to look in an ideal situation. You've listed some of your key players above, so start there. Who is going to responsible for what? If you have a Salah pushing the line and being ready to run onto balls or get it in scoring areas, who is getting it to him? Build front to back in thinking about what you want each player to do out there. Things can and will go pear shaped in the course of a match, but you have to start somewhere, so idealize things. Then you can figure out who your playmakers are, who is covering what areas when the attack goes off, where do you want each man when it comes back the other way. If you get a sense of what each position should do in your system (and you've gotten off to a good start in thinking about a style) it becomes easier to design mentalities, shape, roles, and duties. With mentality, remember that it is essentially a risk level- how far players go forward, passing styles, risky plays, all are affected by the mentality, so you have to decide what your risk tolerance is. That's pretty much the basics of mentality. Shape will govern how your team transitions from attack to defense and back- if you want your defenders to be more involved in transitions moving forward, you want fluid (and attackers more involved in transitions to defense). Obviously there are a lot nuances, but hopefully it will get you jumping off on creating your system.

[TheJanitor]

@Dr. Hook Thanks, great comment that makes thing a lot clearer in my mind. There are so many options I feel like a mate of mine who can't eat an apple without a knife because he don't know where to start. I don't quite have the knife yet but you gave me the handle, if this makes any sort of sense 

[TheJanitor]

After finishing my first season, I have some time now to think about how I will develope my vision. So far I have this in mind:

Verticality

I want to encourage a direct style of build up. Moving the ball forward at high tempo. It's been my favorite style of play even before Klopp made it popular with us Liverpool fans. This pose a problem since as I'm playing as Liverpool, I'm bound to face teams that are happy with dropping deep and not giving my space.

Medium Block

To try and solve the problem, I don't wish to play with the popular high block, to not crunch the space I have available to me and draw the opposition forward. I don't want to play a deep block, because I do want my CBs more involved with ball retention in the final third.

Scorer Not Focal

I said in the opening post that I struggled with having my scorers playing out wide or behind the striker, but I want to change it and try something else. This is because I have the lethal Firmino-Mane-Salah at my club, and I really rate Firmino, both in game and IRL. He could, and should score, but I view Salah as my poacher. However Salah lacks the Strength and Balance to play up-top in my opinion. So I do want to have a false #9 - false 10# combo between them.

Formation

Thinking about a 433 Barcelona. It fits my squad, as I just sold Coutinho while Keita and Wilshere (injured himself on the first week ) joined. I feel well stoked in centeral positions and that it fits us better. It's also a better formation for a striker dropping deep due to the space in the AM slot. Thinking along the lines of this:

Mentality: Standard

Shape: Flexible

Team Instructions: More Direct Passing, Close Down Much More

The aim is to overload the left side of the pitch, in order the create space on the right side for Salah on the right, hence the AP/a role in MCL and duel support roles on the left flank. The IF/s and CAR/s could  morph into a bank of 4 in defence, that should be an interesting experiment.

Trying it during pre-season, will report back.

[jc577]

Really enjoyed reading this thread, eager to see how you get on. Whilst being a United fan I can appreciate the fluidity of Liverpool’s attack, especially in transition, they’re just brilliant to watch. And Firmino is one of my favourite players, hugely underrated imo.

I’m having success with a 433 atm, also playing a vertical style (although will play out differently due to having different players), and the two keys to getting good performances from a wide-attacker is support and supply (Thanks Cleon ). For this reason i’d change the WB-D to a FB-s, as the WB-D may not be high enough to give the RMD adequate support. I’ve often seen my FB play balls down the line for my IF, who can then either cross/shoot depending on the situation.

Just my two cents, good luck 

[TheJanitor]

8 hours ago, jc577 said:

Really enjoyed reading this thread, eager to see how you get on. Whilst being a United fan I can appreciate the fluidity of Liverpool’s attack, especially in transition, they’re just brilliant to watch. And Firmino is one of my favourite players, hugely underrated imo.

I’m having success with a 433 atm, also playing a vertical style (although will play out differently due to having different players), and the two keys to getting good performances from a wide-attacker is support and supply (Thanks Cleon ). For this reason i’d change the WB-D to a FB-s, as the WB-D may not be high enough to give the RMD adequate support. I’ve often seen my FB play balls down the line for my IF, who can then either cross/shoot depending on the situation.

Just my two cents, good luck 

Thanks, I've opted for the WB/d for now to just see how he plays. I like the idea of a FB hanging back in a 433 to support the DM. I think he could offer support in a way, because he is still a Wing-Back, but in a more subtle manner. I will see how both roles compare in pre-season though.

[summatsupeer]

11 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

The aim is to overload the left side of the pitch, in order the create space on the right side for Salah on the right, hence the AP/a role in MCL and duel support roles on the left flank. 

The thing i'm not sure about is how many risks a IF-S + AP-A will take.  I think its more a creative flank than a supportive flank that will look to keep the ball and then allow for a switch of play to the opposite flank.  They're more likely to try and force a through ball or run at a defender etc and unless this is during the first attack there's unlikely to be space for them to play through the RMD.  Once into the attacking phase and the defence has got back those two left sided creative players are unlikely to be able to play through the RMD.

Will be interesting to see if your review matches my assumption.

[TheJanitor]

47 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

The thing i'm not sure about is how many risks a IF-S + AP-A will take.  I think its more a creative flank than a supportive flank that will look to keep the ball and then allow for a switch of play to the opposite flank.  They're more likely to try and force a through ball or run at a defender etc and unless this is during the first attack there's unlikely to be space for them to play through the RMD.  Once into the attacking phase and the defence has got back those two left sided creative players are unlikely to be able to play through the RMD.

Will be interesting to see if your review matches my assumption.

So far, I had two matches during pre-season. Cruised through both since I was playing against weak sides. My main issue with the tactic so far is that we struggle to create quality chances for the Raumdeuter other than counter attacks (and they are few as well). His chances are mainly created through cross-field passes from either my IF/s or AP/a, so I guess that you are right. Only two matches though, so maybe I need more time, but how do you feel I could solve this potential problem? I thought about switching the AP/a and CAR for starters, so I could have my playmaker close to the the goalscorer, then maybe toy with the CAR role, as I really don't need him defending the flank with an IF/s dropping.

[summatsupeer]

I would try that switch of AP and CAR but it does go against your overload one flank to make space on the other.  Instead it will rely more on the RMD's positioning (not the attribute) and the CF+AP drawing players to them.  I use a very similar system and it creates some lovely moves and chances but that is with a different group of players.

[TheJanitor]

These are the changes I made:

Changes made:

- Swaped the AP/a to the right side to offer a creative outlet for the RMD.

- Changed CAR to CM/s support, since he no longer required to defend the flanks.

- Changed DM/d to DLP/d. I think through-out the season I'll go in two different ways about this, either DLP/d combined with CM/s or DM/d combined with DLP/s. Depends on opposition.

- Made the right center-back a BPD/d, just to have someone making direct punts from deep towards the RMD.

- Added Distribute Quickly to my SK/s. I brought Alisson who have the Uses Long Throw To Start Counter Attacks PPM and I'd like to see if he does set-up counter attacks.

Just crashed Gladbach in a friendly 7-1. Salah Played as the RMD in the first half and scored 3 times while Mane who played there in the second half scored once. I really wanted to upload highlight because 3 goals were amazing, but I have an issue with it right now. But looked much better then the previous games.

Re Alisson and the Uses Long Throw To Start Counter Attacks PPM: did anyone experienced with this PPM and can tell me how well it works?

[Gegenklaus]

Great read so far.

How do you find your WB(D)? 

[TheJanitor]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

Great read so far.

How do you find your WB(D)? 

Had only two games, against Tottenham and a strong Stoke side. He is great at providing cover and balance, almost like a back three at time. While he still offers something going forward, I guess that against teams that are happier to defend in numbers I might change it to something more advanturous that offers more support in the final third and looks to overlap more often.

[permanentquandary]

7 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Had only two games, against Tottenham and a strong Stoke side. He is great at providing cover and balance, almost like a back three at time. While he still offers something going forward, I guess that against teams that are happier to defend in numbers I might change it to something more advanturous that offers more support in the final third and looks to overlap more often.

I'd be quite concerned you have two attack duties on that flank and no support. IMO WB(S) would be more beneficial but maybe slightly more of a defensive liability, and I would try also switching the left back to FB/WB(A), FB or WB depending entirely on how good your left back is at dribbling and how fast he is. As I understand it the FB(A) doesn't run with the ball so much.

Alternatively, switch the AP(A) to the MCL slot and the CM(S) to the MCR slot and that should provide the kind of support you need.

If you're in need of some extra oomph during games within the system you're going with right now I recommend changing the DLP(D) to a DLP(S) or DM(S) with hold position TI, so he still holds position but provides more support, and you can then switch the CM(S) to CM(A) and change the AP(A) to AP(S) or CM(S).