Celtic 4-3-1-2 attacking/counterattacking: Have I got this right?

[decapitated]

Hi I’ve been thinking of creating my own formations and tactics rather than rely on downloaded ones. I’ve been reading a lot of the threads in this forum, but I’m worried I haven’t properly understood them. I’ve created a 4-3-1-2 in both Counter-Attacking and Attacking modes (I was thinking of creating a 3^rd ‘direct passing’ tactics set but not yet).

 

Here’s what I’ve got. Does this make sense?

[Fosse]

Your midfield is exposed, the ball winning midfielder has too much to do and he'll leave a huge hole in midfield. You need to change the midfield roles and duties.

Do you really need so many team instructions, could you explain the thought process behind each of them?

[decapitated]

35 minutes ago, Fosse said:

Your midfield is exposed, the ball winning midfielder has too much to do and he'll leave a huge hole in midfield. You need to change the midfield roles and duties.

Do you really need so many team instructions, could you explain the thought process behind each of them?

Which midfield role should I choose? I have a very good CM whose good as either a ball winning midfielder or a box to box midfielder but also kind of good as a generic CM, but I'm guessing that role won't suit the role either. would a generic Central midfielder role work and it would it be better to have him as a defense duty rather than support?

 

I think the problem I have is, I felt that I had to have as many instructions as possible, which I'm guessing isn't such a great idea?

I read that for a 4-3-1-2 its best to concentrate on the middle of the field so that's why its a narrow formation and I told them to exploit the middle, though I also thought keeping possession would be important which is also why I told them to play out of defence. I thought for a counter attack passing into space would be a good tactic a and I kept that on for the attacking formation as well. My strikers are useless at jumping which is I went for low crosses. I went for early crosses as I thought it would mean they would create confusion in the box on the counter attack (again I kept it on for the attacking strategy). I also thought that both approaches needed tacklers to get stuck in to win the ball back. The main difference between the two is that the counter attacking has a deeper defensive line and lower tempo and the attacking one is the opposite. 

 

[jc577]

In regards to your attacking tactic, are your players good enough to retain possession and play at a higher tempo? First touch and composure becomes vitally important here. There is no need to use the exploit the middle ti as your team will naturally do this anyway. Early crosses should be used situationally, and can become quite predictable. 

[lemeuresnew]

13 minutes ago, decapitated said:

read that for a 4-3-1-2 its best to concentrate on the middle of the field so that's why its a narrow formation and I told them to exploit the middle

a bit over kill, how will you brake down deep teams in the league without trying to stretch them a bit?

17 minutes ago, decapitated said:

read that for a 4-3-1-2 its best to concentrate on the middle of the field so that's why its a narrow formation and I told them to exploit the middle, though I also thought keeping possession would be important which is also why I told them to play out of defence. I thought for a counter attack passing into space would be a good tactic a and I kept that on for the attacking formation as well. My strikers are useless at jumping which is I went for low crosses. I went for early crosses as I thought it would mean they would create confusion in the box on the counter attack (again I kept it on for the attacking strategy).

this all contradicts itself. how are you retaining posession if you arent passing to feet and hitting early crosses? if you are attacking how much possession do you waste from early crosses being low into a packed box? how are you retaining possession properly in the middle if they are shooting on sight?

i really dont understand how this team would play, is it just random? 

[lemeuresnew]

1 hour ago, decapitated said:

 

why are you playing through middle with 1 midfielder? how do you defend with 1 midfielder? why have a mr + ml and go through 1 man in middle? your att mid would be trying to get into box and run, just focusing on him?

[decapitated]

21 minutes ago, jc577 said:

In regards to your attacking tactic, are your players good enough to retain possession and play at a higher tempo? First touch and composure becomes vitally important here. There is no need to use the exploit the middle ti as your team will naturally do this anyway. Early crosses should be used situationally, and can become quite predictable. 

We are 1st in the league for composure and first touch. Posting the screenshots of those stats screens to provide further information. I'm getting the feeling I added too many instructions and some are contradictory? I'm going to cut them down to 6 or 7.

[decapitated]

25 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

a bit over kill, how will you brake down deep teams in the league without trying to stretch them a bit?

this all contradicts itself. how are you retaining posession if you arent passing to feet and hitting early crosses? if you are attacking how much possession do you waste from early crosses being low into a packed box? how are you retaining possession properly in the middle if they are shooting on sight?

i really dont understand how this team would play, is it just random? 

I did worry that the tactics contradicted themselves somewhat, which is why I made this thread as I couldn't understand how exactly that was so  This is only the 2nd time i've made my own formation so I'm not very good at it and I apologise for the glaring errors.  What would be better for an both an attacking and a counter attacking side? retaining possession or not emphasizing that aspect of the game?

[lemeuresnew]

4 minutes ago, decapitated said:

We are 1st in the league for composure and first touch. Posting the screenshots of those stats screens to provide further information. I'm getting the feeling I added too many instructions and some are contradictory? I'm going to cut them down to 6 or 7.

dont focus so much on league comparison. you can be the best team in an under 11s league but doesnt mean you can play like barca...

6 or 7 is still a lot. why not read a few threads in this forum to get a better idea of what you are doing? try this as a starter  http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/422913-FM-15-A-Basic-Guide-for-Tactics-and-Training-UPDATED

this image gives you an idea of the problems your formation will cause. where is the space you have in midfield and can you control anywhere on the pitch playing narrow with no one in the middle?

[lemeuresnew]

1 minute ago, decapitated said:

I did worry that the tactics contradicted themselves somewhat, which is why I made this thread as I couldn't understand how exactly that was so  This is only the 2nd time i've made my own formation so I'm not very good at it and I apologise for the glaring errors.  What would be better for an both an attacking and a counter attacking side? retaining possession or not emphasizing that aspect of the game?

counter attacking basically puts men behind the ball. your team will naturally break away in any circumstance like a corner in any formation. there is very little point trying to use this formation with a counter attack logic, as your front 3 players will just not get back enough to help in my experience

have a read of some threads, other people have explained things better than i can

 

[OhhScottySinclair]

The shouts are completely contradictory and the shape leaves your central midfield and back line completely exposed, especially because a BWM roams from position you have no one you can rely on in the middle of the pitch to retain possession. Here are some tips so you can improve it.

In the attacking tactic - 

- You are playing a high line and you more than likely don't have any of your players pressing from the front, this will give the opposition time to play a ball in behind your defence as you are giving them too much time on the ball, if you play a high line you need to be aggressive in winning the ball back.

- You are playing on a higher tempo with a highline which is telling your players to pick there passes out faster whilst most of your players are committed to attack, they have no one they can use as a pivot in midfield to retain the ball. Try setting your BWM as a DLP/ D OR S but even still it will be pretty easily exposed through the middle (especially if a team plays a diamond shape.

-  You are telling your team to exploit the middle, this makes your team play even fast and more risky through that area to expose an opposition weakness, if the opposition is playing a static defence and you can't break them down then your team will prioritise through the middle and you will keep losing the ball, falling into the hands of the opposition, due to your teams weakness through the middle as there is practically no one there sitting in the hole to retain the ball you may be counter attacked very easily, you don't necessarily need to play someone in CM as a holding midfielder you can use many other roles aslong as they have high work rate determination etc to get back into position.

- Your shouts hit early crosses and shoot on sight, if you are playing a higher mentality also this will encourage your team to prioritise shooting as soon as they get in a position to do so and crossing the ball as soon as they are out wide, although this may be successful in some circumstances teams in the SPFL playing against us are more than likely going to sit deep and defend so you may find that it is difficult to break them down, I would suggest that you remove these both and make sure you have attackers who are going to pull opposition defenders out of position and players going to make runs into space to penetrate their defence, you are trying to force your way through which may end with you not scoring any goals and getting counter attacked especially due to your lack of numbers in the middle of the park.

- Retain possession is also similar to my last point, this removes risk from passes and prioritises keeping the ball, the opposition have basically shut up shop especially in Celtic park so you need to find a way to pull the opposition defence out of position and players to penetrate, retaining possession will make your side lack penetration and find it difficult to break the opposition down, I would also put it on control/fluid to encourage a bit of risk whilst also involving other players in the attacks whilst not leaving yourself too exposed but if you need to you can increase/decrease it.

In the counter tactic - (which I assume you will be using in Europe!)

The shouts are not as bad as the previous tactic but rather the shape you are using to achieve this, to counter attack a team you need to have men behind the ball and invite them to attack, when they come forward they will leave space in behind the defence that our fast players can exploit Roberts, forrest, Sinclair, Dembele, Griffiths are all players capable of achieving this.

First of all I would completely change the shape to what ever you want as long as it has numbers In the middle of the park and wingers capable of getting back to defend, personally I recommend playing a 4-3-3 with a DM have a CM/S and an AP/S with a DM/D in behind them with one of your wingers on support, if you need to set the in game marking of your wingers on the opposition full backs. Have your striker play as a DLF/S with roam from position so he can receive the ball up the pitch and hold onto and distribute it whilst your other players surge forward to exploit the space in behind. I would also play on structured/control to make sure not too many players get forward and you keep your shape whilst also taking a bit of risk in your passes to exploit the space in behind.

Now your shouts - 

- Retain possession with a counter attacking tactic is like trying to drive a car with no wheels, you absolutely must prioritise getting in behind at a high tempo even if you may be a bit wasteful and once you gained the lead shut the opposition out, with retain possession you will find it extremely difficult to exploit the space in behind the opposition as it is telling your team not to take risks, this will slow your attacks down and allow the opposition to reorganise.

- I would also take of exploit the middle as if the opposition doesn't have a weakness there then it is pointless and it takes a bit of focus away from the flanks which I feel are the most important part of a counter attacking tactic, having a fast wide man able to get in behind and be a pain in the b**** for defenders getting crosses into supporting midfielders and striker whilst also getting shots away is how your going to score your goals, although if the opposition lacks numbers in the centre of the pitch then you can change your shape to include more players in the centre of the park and create overloads where you can penetrate the opposition in the centre of the field.

- I would also take of shoot on sight as you aren't going to get too many opportunities this will waste the ones you will get instead of playing the ball into dangerous positions and actually scoring.

- Some people may disagree with play out of defence in a counter attacking system although I like it as being wasteful playing from the back will be extremely hard to get forward and playing a long ball is exactly what teams that employ a high press want you to do, if you play it fast and precise from the back with lots of passing options it increases your chances of getting forward and through the opposition's defence.

 

Good luck and let me know how it goes mate, going for 10 in a row!