2 HALF BACKS - My Crazy Formation

[BallHogging]

I wanted to have a chat about my formation, whether anyone has used or at least tried something similar.

On my long journey creating tactics in line with my philosophy (LvG memories....*shudder*) I have gone through many many iterations of tactics, saving the different versions as I tweak them in case I had to look back and remember what was bad. One such saved tactic was "Espanyol 4132 v7"! And each version (v) was at the time thought to be close to the final product!

And now, after many frustrating hours spent analysing 2D players' movement round a pitch...attempting to have them play exactly as I want...I've found my way to a tactic which looks crazy. A tactic that could only be arrived at by people the likes of which have spent too long on this game using trial and error making millions of adjustments all of which seemed minute at the time...yes...but which end up giving birth to this Frankenstein - behold:

And the team instructions:

So that was my home formation. Away I make a little change:

TI's:

Yes...two Half Backs, no strikers....magnificent. It certainly throws up some ropey moments....but no more than any other formations!

So, anyone used something like this? Any thoughts or questions? There are multiple reasons and things learnt that led me to this insanity...I can explain some of them later...but I'll leave it at that for now!

[jozza800]

What does the Average position of your team look like in game?

[HaroldHammond]

Have you used this is fm16? Would be interested how it works with this ME

[Jean0987654321]

Oh my word. I hope to see a breakdown of that monster formation...

[BallHogging]

Have you used this is fm16? Would be interested how it works with this ME

I haven't. The last FM I had wasn't even an FM, it was a CM...01/02. Going on that record....I probably won't have another FM till 2029.

[BallHogging]

Oh my word. I hope to see a breakdown of that monster formation...

what sort of breakdown of the monster would you like?!

[BallHogging]

What does the Average position of your team look like in game?

Your wish is my command.

So 1st, the results so far this season with the formation:

Easy games and a loss to Chelsea yes, but Chelsea were lucky, they're ridiculously strong on the counter and I went 4213 Target Men direct for the last half hour and failed miserably.

So here is heat map/average positions for each game:

Man Utd - 0:2 - Chelsea (Neutral Ground)

Man Utd - 4:0 - C Palace

West Brom - 0:3 - Man Utd

Man Utd - 3:0 - Fulham

Man Utd - 3:2 - Everton

Analysis & The Defensive Conundrum

So, I had a lot of problems with various roles and positions doing what I wanted them to do. Some of my biggest issues defending on this game were related to man marking or not, players pressing or not, attacking players not tracking back etc. This included teams that would sit back and park the bus, to then counter with a sole winger who would get a free run all the way to my full back/wing back. I commented about this on another post, I'm sure many feel my pain:

"I cannot stand not having the ball. Why? I would rather like to limit the amount of times the opposition wideboys(men) "opportunistically" whips one into a box containing 4 well placed defenders but also 1 late arriving... off the ball movement god of an individual who proceeds to slap one past my quality gk at his near post. It's criminal."

Perhaps the lone striker would do the same thing, run to collect a cleared ball in a channel ahead of 4 defenders and then proceed to carry the ball toward one defender whilst the other 3 back off in a line. I wanted pressure in the right places especially against poor teams.

And so to this end I decided that for a great part of the time the two CB's were doing nothing, not pressing but waiting till the opposition had advanced to tackle (despite much higher defensive line). Against the parked bus they didn't move forward into the chasm to help my possession hungry team start again, nor did the rest of the team use them because their role under the hood is CB, the team would rather try and pass to a role/position that in the match engine is more linked with supporting attacks. I tried all the different DM's and although I liked using 1 regista in some formations I still needed to find something that did not waste 2 centre backs and that did not allocate too many defensive players in order to be ready to win back a ball from lone strikers/wingers.

I tried a libero-a, but it was, as you might expect, too deep. It did not help the offside trap, and they didn't seem to be alert to what they needed to sweep up enough of the time. Nor were they used by the team in constructing moves further up the pitch, with the creative players once again preferring to try something ridiculous instead of using the Libero in space.

So I set about creating my own 'false sweeper' formation. And as you can see from the heatmaps and positions as far as the defensive setup is concerned I have managed to replicate what you would expect from an actual sweeper system that presses high up the pitch. The challenges presented by this are related mainly to having the half backs actually take up a CB position when under severe pressure. Sometimes they do, sometimes they run off to the touch line to murder the winger. But in a way, this is the sort of intelligent pressing that I was craving. If there is only 1 opposition player central, not many in support yet behind, and then that 1 troublesome guy out wide, then yes I want my left or right Half Back to go and help the appropriate Full Back. Go and flippin well win back possession early, don't allow the opposition to get their teammates up the pitch.

Yes sometimes the half backs go off to press incorrectly, making the wrong decision to move forward ahead of the pseudo optimal defensive line, i.e. forming 3 CB's. This creates some dodgy moments whereby a quality attacking team like Liverpool who bombard the centre with runners suddenly overload my CB-X who has no chance. So yes, this system needs to be used wisely, but for me first and foremost it was created to help stop the smaller teams from scoring rogue goals and maintain my pressure on them, pin them as far back as possible. Yes this means I can't take advantage of space in behind and counter, and that their bus remains parked.....but then i set about creating a good attacking system to compliment my fake sweeper system.

Another thing that happens through using one CB-X and then HB's is the FB-A's do sit in a little more than they would otherwise. It's only slight, but it makes a difference. And sometimes the HB's are effectively anchor-manning in front of a fairly narrow back 3. Now this isn't ideally what I want, but the overall result is nigh on the solution to my quibbles.

[BallHogging]

.....Analysis Continued

Also just to bring something to attention. My defensive backbone as you can see from the first image in the thread is: Gustavo - Dante - Papasthathopoulos (what a name). My issue of getting these would be CB's involved in ball retention, recycling earlier, 'starting again' with attacks that hit cul-de-sacs has been well and truly fixed. Previously the CB's would not touch the ball often, nor would they make many passes throughout the course of 90 minutes. Below is a screen shot from a game where I went for Gustavo - Papasthathopoulos - Wanyama, one that shows you how well they get involved now.

Look at how well the Half Backs Luis Gustavo & Wanyama are involved. Luis Gustavo made the most passes of any player, and Wanyama the third most. They both made more tackles than the centre back and even had a few shots between them for good measure. The centre back Papasthathopoulos did not shoot, made practically all of his passes to FB's or HB's, and was mainly noted for having the most headed clearances...exactly what my theory was, that he would be there to clear crosses, set pieces, and hopeful punts to a lone striker dead central on the pitch.

One thing to note is that I had a particular skillset/attribute requirement for my Half Back personnel:

* Ability to play CB

* Height

* Composure (especially necessary if Vision attribute is low)

* Passing >10

* 1st tier obvious requirements - marking/positioning/tackling/agression

* 2nd tier preferences - strength/pace/accel/teamwork/workrate

* 3rd tier luxuries - firsttouch/technique/vision/decisions

* Other PPM's from: plays way out of trouble / plays no through balls / plays short simple passes / stays back at all times. etc....

So I would not use a centre midfielder who can play defensive mid roles, or a defensive mid who sort of matches my above requirements but cannot play CB. I really wanted a CB who can play DM, or even a CB who needs to be trained as a DM HB but has my requirements.

To my surprise during my third season's pre season the England job became available as Roy Hodgson stepped down. I thought why the hell not and applied for the role as I always felt I could do better with the players England have had over the years. Unlike the old CM's where you could see your ranking of all managers in your home country and worldwide on FM I'm not too sure as to how well I really am received, my reputation.

1st season: PL = 4th. CL = n/a. FA Cup = Winners

2nd season: PL = 3rd. CL = 4th in group . FA Cup = Winners

So I took a punt but followed it up by keeping quiet when the journalists starting calling. If I was to be laughed off or embarrassed by rejection I wanted it to seem like it was baloney anyway and that I could end by asserting that it never happened. It seems my silence and refusal to proclaim how 'it would be my honor' and what 'a wonderful dream' it had been all my life to manage England worked in my favour. France suddenly offered me the role, even before the England position had been decided upon. I took it. England decided to go for Roberto Martinez. And so I went about instilling my philosophy using the French players at my disposal.

Again you can see I've used natural defenders in the Half Back positions and a tall beast at CB. Shame he's not that good in real life

[BallHogging]

Match Example: Managing Defending

Someone once said, "Contain mentality isn't for scoring". They were wrong.

Ok so it's only Viktoria Plzen but we won 3-0 and hit the woodwork twice, all without a striker, on Contain mentality, retain possession, working it into the box...etcetera, etcetera.

So as I was playing this fixture I thought it would make an interesting case study on the tactic on a number of levels. I called this section 'Managing Defending' because let's face it, my formation is crazy, shouldn't work, should leave holes everywhere and so on; and today's opponent use a tactic that I really dislike playing against.

Yes, the Narrow 4321. The formation that ends in your box getting a bum-rushing like the alamo (No puns intended), but one that also makes scoring very hard as central areas become so claustrophobic limiting your attacks on the periphery with low percentage crosses.

Last year in the CL I finished 4th in the group and we were generally unlucky but definitely not good enough. So in this opening fixture away from home I was keen to not just win but to shackle my opponent and reduce their scoring opportunities, as general good practice for all away games.

Looking at their line-up my main concern was augmenting my defence and ensuring we got enough men behind the ball to stop their (pretty much) front six, and yet...as always I stuck with playing a 'Much Higher Defensive Line'. Now initially I wasn't sure how their full backs would behave and whether they'd bomb on, but I took a gamble that they wouldn't and I was right. I would usually instruct the inside forwards (who 10 minutes in got changed to Raumdeuters) to man mark their full backs, but this time I made them man mark Plzen's outer CM's. I then asked my AM's to man mark their AM's so that the Half Backs didn't feel they alone had to press them and get drawn out. Fellaini was free to press as he saw fit.

These man marking instructions worked an absolute treat as they effectively created a pseudo drop deeper command that drew the attack back, but which worked in tandem with the Much Higher Defensive Line instruction and ended with us choking the opposition's out ball & supply routes even though they liked to play out from the back. It completely cut the area they could play in without straying offside. Take a look at the average positions/heatmap:

Notice how having this security centrally with the CB, HBs and CM allows me to choose two very attacking minded full backs, well wingers practically. Andre Ayew is fantastic & Pione Sisto has been a revelation for me. Their mix of pace, dribbling, aggression, work rate, general attacking prowess, and PPMs of getting forwards means they are fantastic for turning defence into attack in one swift phase and also for recovering to get goalside in defensive situations. Ayew is natural in LCM/LM, Pione in RWF, yet they have performed superbly and led to Bayern wanting Ayew and Real wanting Sisto.

Finally, here's the final stats and the formation in which we saw out the game. If you thought the formation in this thread couldn't get any more absurd....prepare yourself:

So we had 58% possession, and that was allowing them to pass it around their backline till they mess up. The Half Backs were once again the highest passers in the team taking home a 1,2 in that regard. TI's ended with everything the same apart from the addition of Much Lower Tempo & Waste Time. Full Backs were told to sit narrower, as were the WM-A's. Everyone had a dribble less instruction.

So in conclusion it was a success. Yes it's only Plzen, but the 4321 is a formation and direct countering style that can end in major overloads and tears, whilst throttling your own attacking success. It was an away fixture and by 60 minutes with a little more luck with the woodwork the score could have been 5-0 before we proceeded to be distinctly Italian and shut up shop like Inter v Barce, and in honour of the defensive stalwarts of Italian past.

[Svenc]

Looks pretty creative. However like many unusually formations this would have one obvious weakness, which is when AI managers would field 3 central forwards, which can happen either because they prefer that full-stop, sometimes it can also be applied when they make a switch mid-match, typically it's a prefered attacking formation of theirs. Firstly, a makeshift back three of FB-CB-FB as can be second-guessed from the tactics screen, opens channels in between them as wide as the hips of Kim Kardashian. In particular the wide central forwards can have a field day here.

What's more, as central forwards don't track back much, eventually the wide guys in particular could sit and drift into space if the full backs bomb forward. If the interception would reach him, the only CB as the only central defender really would tend to engage him, and the other guys are through on goal.

It's not a default loss or point drop at all, and as said many times AI isn't programmed to "crack" or respond to anything such (arguably it should...), but depending on who you play, something you may watch out for. It's not common typically, but it can be depending on who takes the jobs in the league and what their preferences are.

[mikcheck]

It's similar to WM formation, at least in the defense. I've tried but couldn't make it work because there is a huge gap between the fullbacks and the lone central defender and that's a big problem and always very well exploited by other teams with lots of through balls and 2v1 and sometimes 3v1 situations. All sorts of problems

[BallHogging]

Hi Svenc. Good shout. I've not seen a team play that yet, but a team that plays the 4321 or 3421 generally presents this sort of danger when they reach my final third. So in these instances I'd try to nullify the attack early or encounter a problem on those direct clearances that's for sure!

As a first reaction in game I'd probably consider having the FB-A's turn into FB-S & then to man mark the outer strikers if they did indeed sit on the touchline like that...but I highly doubt in counter situations that it would work. It would probably lead to the usual defender man marking problem where their opposite number suddenly dashes past them leaving them at the half way line, or where one of their midfielders makes a run for the box and ultimately has no one marking him.

So in reality if I encountered a true 3 striker formation and not one where it was SS's/AM's or CM-A/S's on attacking mentalities making dashes for the box that I felt I could pin back and nullify earlier....then I'd definitely have to change the formation, because my other idea to this of not crossing and attempting to hog possession and work ball into box would still lead to a direct counter and serious danger.

I'd have to accept the Frankenstein of a formation would need surgery! First against this I'd be playing my away version of the formation where there is no striker. Instantly I would change the current CM-A to a CM-D.

Then I'd simply have to drop the half backs back into centre back to have the 3 man defence, thus accepting they won't be on the ball much. I'd retain the FB-A's. Then depending on how the opposition defends perhaps return the Raumdeuters to IF's for a more pinpoint attacking outlet and then go more direct myself.

But yes...the moment I see that formation or even a 42121 using IF's away from home.. it's time to be concerned and tweak...especially against a good quality opponent. But generally as I say this formation was developed to stop poorer teams from even getting close to my final third and I've not seen one team play a 3 striker formation where they really are strikers and not forwards who at least drop to press us whilst we attack. Each day that goes by that I don't encounter these goal hangers is a good day!!

[BallHogging]

It's similar to WM formation, at least in the defense. I've tried but couldn't make it work because there is a huge gap between the fullbacks and the lone central defender and that's a big problem and always very well exploited by other teams with lots of through balls and 2v1 and sometimes 3v1 situations. All sorts of problems

I've certainly encountered this problem! More so in days gone by when I was working out exactly what the roles do. I did once try a single CB with FB-S instructed to sit narrow, TI's to play narrower, perhaps two DM-S's in front...and all sorts of other make shift attempts. But of course the FB's didn't respond properly to central danger and could not be told to man mark properly. IWB's not cutting it either.

But it all led me to trying the Half Backs based on their role description and then to develop a formation where offsides are common, but one where the personnel really are quality defenders. Luis Gustavo is world class defensively. Wanyama & Papasthathopoulos are immense also. Phil Jones can do a job there. But I couldn't use this formation with anything other than either Contain mentality, or at the most Control against a deep defending lone striker opposition, or at most a 4411 side. In this way at least one of the HB's is dropping right back alongside my lone CB. And then if the FB's are at least coming slightly narrower then things operate ok. There are dodgy times for definite but usually one of the HB's gets me out of jail. And it may help having the HB's set to close down less/much less.

But I'm about to click start match against Arsenal away! So we'll see how long I stick with it before cracking. We've got the CM-A set to CM-D and man marking duties for all the attacking players!

When you say WM formation do you mean one using wide mids, or is that the name of a stock formation available on here? But if you meant wide mids I agree that my making the Raumdeuters man mark is close to a sort of false WM-A setup. Going for the Raumdeuters was a way to encourage them higher up the pitch and to be more consistently dangerous in the final third for setups where I play a single striker or none at all.

[mikcheck]

WM is a formation used by Herbert Chapman and consist in a W shape in attack and M shape in defense, as you can see here http://www.sportskeeda.com/football/using-chapmans-w-m-a-reverse-evolution-for-football-maybe

Cleon used to create a WM tactic for every FM version but it stopped doing since left and right forward positions no longer exist in the last FM versions.

[Lordluap]

Considered using a Sweeper or Libero (s) instead of a CB?

[Jean0987654321]

what sort of breakdown of the monster would you like?!

Well, you already done that it seems

[BallHogging]

Well, you already done that it seems

Haha, thought you might consider it so!

[BallHogging]

Considered using a Sweeper or Libero (s) instead of a CB?

Yeh I tried it but it didn't fit my overall ethos. I spoke about it in the write up in post #7.