Unique and highly aesthetic football - papamogls 5-4-1

[papamogl]

Hey everybody

I finally managed to implement exactly the way I want my team to play. The tactic is based upon fluid quick tempo, short passing football and yet is possession driven. The 5-4-1 shape may seem to be quite defensive and yet it provides that great attacking flair. Before I try to explain some of the conceptual ideas, please have a look at the formation:

Why the three defenders, isn't that giving away domination somewhere else on the pitch? Well, it probably would be if the defenders weren't used the way they are here. Some background: I found it very difficult to set up a tight four man defense that could push high up the pitch without being prone to through balls. In fact, I was never happy with either the amount of goals conceded or the pressure my team was able to set up. With three DCs I found it much easier to achieve a stable d-line. So here's what I did: I chose three DCs pushing up high and attacking early. The idea behind is always to have a spare man at the back. So when facing a two man attack there's always a third DC to cover which enables a high pressing game. When a pressing DC lost a one on one there's always the spare CD to cover up. And it also gives the Wing backs the opportunity to join the attack because when a wing back is high up the pitch and caught on a counter attack, one of the DCs will step out to cover the open flank.

But the three DCs are also not lost for your attacking phase. Because they are pushing up high and outnumber the opponents attacking players, they offer valuable passing options (at least one of them is always free!) and are indeed very often involved in build up play. This is a very effective protection against opponents playing themselves a strong pressing game. There's always at least one man free at the back so the opoonents will run themselves to exhaustion when trying to regain possession high up the pitch.

Now onto the attacking phase of play: The CM and, to some degree, the wing backs are your linking players between the d-line and the AMs/FC. The idea of having three AMs is simply to have enough passing options upfront and in the same time having four different players who always can go deep to exploit space. This is difficult to defend against. If the opponents CDs step up to attack the AMs this gives you space behind the defense to exploit. If they stay deep you'll have plenty of space between the lines. And with the wing backs stepping up you end up pretty much having six man in the midfield offering a lot of passing options while still outnumbering the opponents attack at the back and therefore having enough cover. For me this turned out to work very well!

A screenshot:

What players you need:

GK: You're defending high so get a sweeper keeper who's good at 1on1s

DCs: pace, pace, pace. At least one of the DCs should be fast, at least one of the others should be good in the air. Positioning is important and all three should be able to play simple passes.

WBs: modern wing backs going forward whenever possible. So apart for the defending stats pacey, good crossing and dribbling.

CM: the core linking player and your playmaker. Very good passing and decision stats, good mental attributes. If he's good at long shots that'll help a lot

AMs: all three good passers (passing, decision, mental attributes). Good finishing helps.

At least one of the four attacking players (AMs and FC) should be good in the air and at least one of them should be fast. I like to play a fast striker (Walcott)

In game I always use the "look for overlap" shout. If you need to score apart from switching to attacking/overload don't forget to untick/lower time wasting

Finally, two videos showing the style of play:

5-4-1 modern video

2nd video

And here's the download link:

5-4-1 modern outdated Filefront

5-4-1 modern outdated Mediafire

With this tactic I finally won the championsleague (on penalties against Inter:cool:) with Arsenal, sth I never achieved before in FM10

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Here's the new download link for v2: 5-4-1 v2 Mediafire

Some changes you should be aware of:

• A pacey striker works best for me. If possible, one AMC should be good in the air.
  
• Please do adjust team mentality during game[/size][/b] Standard is set as default now. I often start with standard and see how things go. If the opponent is having more of the game (more chances/posession etc) I often switch to control to take over. When in front, standard mentality worked well for me. Your opponent will face some nasty counter attacks
  
• I'm still using the "look for overlap" shout
  

Please don't hesitate to give me feedback Thanks and enjoy

[papamogl]

Some more screenshots:

Oh, I forgot: I created it on 10.3

[Elhan]

Do you use any particular shouts?

[TIR669]

Will try if you can upload it to say mediafire as I can't download from filefront... Don't know why.

The tactic itself looks great, I was impressed by that video and the speed of play.

[papamogl]

I always use "look for overlap" from the beginning. Other shouts just as I see fit.

Will upload to mediafire later on today, as soon as I'm home

[Elhan]

Although I have never been a fan of short passing/quick tempo (is the high time wasting there to ballance things out?), this tactic has some really interesting ideas. Defensively it looks promisisng although I've only had time to try this for a few games, it seems to handle counters reasonably well. I've only had two problems so far. Quick tempo + short passing for the defenders has resulted in some misplaced passes that led to conceding. Secondly, there is noone to cover for overlapping fullbacks, wich again cost me a goal or two. Here is a screenshot of what I mean:

[Elhan]

Although I have never been able to make short passing/quick tempo work properly (is the high time wasting there to ballance things out?), this tactic has some really interesting ideas. Defensively it looks promisisng and although I've only had time to try this for a few games, it seems to handle counters reasonably well. I've only had two problems so far. Quick tempo + short passing for the defenders has resulted in some misplaced passes that led to conceding. Secondly, there is noone to cover for overlapping fullbacks, wich again cost me a goal or two. Here is a screenshot of what I mean:

[papamogl]

Elhan which team are you managing? Who are your defenders?

The Time wasting is indeed to balance the quick tempo and possession. I found my team to choose chances more wisely and trying less risky balls rather than rushing in with higher time wasting. So you'll keep possession and take risks only when it's worthy

[S!lver]

I gonna give it a go on a fresh save. Will probably try with Athletico Madrid.

I'll post some results and impressions later.

[Elhan]

Tried a few games with Roma and a few games with a Wolves team for testing various formations,. Roma's defensive line is really a quality one both for DCs and fullbacks, the Wolves one is not terrible. This has nothing to do with the quality of the defenders though, it is a drawback of the formation itself, there are no "natural" players to mark offensive fullbacks unless you ask your left/right AMC to specific mark them but that will really hurt your offensive threat. For narrow formations this tends to be a problem but usually you can solve it by adjusting the MCs a bit, if you use a formation wich features a diamond or a triangle in the middle. Obviously, this solution can not be employed for this formation though.

If you look at the screenshot my fullback is marking the oponent's winger, but their fullback is completely free to either offer support and play a 1-2 with their winger, or put a cross in or anything really. In this particular case he had the time to pick a very good cross wich ended up in me conceding. The same is true for their left fullback (Evra) just look how much space he has.

[papamogl]

I see the problem there. The solution should be the DCL stepping out to attack the opponents Wing back. In your screenshot the marking is weak with one free attacker in the penalty box and two DCs doing exactly nothing. Will have to look into this thanks for the tip

[S!lver]

I've been trying the tactic for 12 games + 6 friendlies.

6W - 4D - 2L (6W during friendlies)

The attacking part is good enough, pretty fluid. Not a lot of CCC's but entertaining to watch (one of the AMC is playing weirdly sometimes)

The main issue is in the defensive part; espescially down both flanks. The fact that WBs bring a lot in the offensive part tend to put you in extremly dangerous situations against potent wingers (Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi had a lot of fun there ^^)

There is a problem in the midfield too. Good AMC's like Kaka can bring so much threat between the lines that I didn't know how to counter them. He usually gets the ball behind the MC, running until he meets a DC, and gives a nice ball to the wingers or the ST's that run through the DC's.

[papamogl]

Uploaded to mediafire:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/j5yuqomn5ztos0j/4-5-1%20modern.tac

Thanks for the info Silver. Could you please specify which of the AMCs is playing wierdly and how so? I'll try to strengthen the defending on the flanks and in front of the DCs. Will keep you updated

[michaelthestrange]

At least one of the four attacking players (AMs and FC) should be good in the air and at least one of them should be fast. I like to play a fast striker (Walcott)

So you say you are using an AMC with good jumping/heading (quite heard to find)? In which position do you put him? It feels like the left and right AMCs should be rather fast, so I guess you put him in the middle?

I really enjoy this tactic so far. 7 games played - 5W, 2D.

But I really feel like my tall strikers do not work, since they only shot 3 golas (2 penalties, 1 long shot I think), so I want to install a fast striker plus an AMC with good heading. That is why I am asking.

[papamogl]

Thanks Michael. I'm playing Marouane Chamakh as the middle AMC

I'm interested how you guys are conceeding goals since I try to overhaul the defensive concept. Is it mostly through the flanks?

[michaelthestrange]

I only conceded 2 goals in those 7 matches. One of them was a dumb goal after a corner, the other one I cannot remember. I am pretty satisfied with the defence so far, but as soon as I spot weak areas I will let you know.

[Elhan]

Thanks Michael. I'm playing Marouane Chamakh as the middle AMC

I'm interested how you guys are conceeding goals since I try to overhaul the defensive concept. Is it mostly through the flanks?

Personaly, yes. I don't concede much and I like the overall defensive setup but when i do concede it's from the flanks yes.

[papamogl]

Just played against ManU, them playing three AMCs themselves, and haven't had many problems dealing with the space in front of my backline. By far the most goals I'm conceding are from corners or free-kicks.

Btw I just bought Neymar for the new season and playing him upfront. He's tremendous for me as striker. Just the sort of guy you need: pacey, good dribbling, "move into channels" as PPM... His finishing skill can still improve though

[papamogl]

Quick update: Will be posting another video soon. Still messing around with the defense settings. It is a fiddly task however and still the initial settings do work very well for me. How many goals are you guys conceeding?

[michaelthestrange]

I conceded 2 goals in 14 matches (friendlies excluded). 11W - 3D. I am satisfied with the defence obviously, but I agree that the most danger seems to loom from the flanks.

[papamogl]

Thanks Michael. Wow, from what I see you haven't conceded in the last seven games and won them all! That's quite a good run of form Looks like the tactic needs some time to settle

Btw which team are you managing?

[michaelthestrange]

I am managing Hamburger SV from German Bundesliga in the first season playing with Forbes Database Update. The fact that I do not play euro/champions league and got knocked out from the national cup in round 2 definately makes things easier in the league though.

[papamogl]

Pretty good team

I'm still working on shutting the flanks. It's a bit of the Chile against Brazil at the world cup dilemma: te AMs should bind back the opponents full backs. Now the question is to what degree the AMs should track back if the wing backs are pushing forward all the same (Robinho against Jara at WC. Robinho didn't track back all the times and this resulted in dangerous counter attacks for Brazil). It's difficult to find the balance between defensive stability and being able to launch dangerous counters

[Vinsanity666]

If you set up attacking set pieces making all 3 DC's join the attack this is a great tactic to work with. I didn't manage to create a lot of chances untill i changed the passing to default and tuned the tempo down with a bit less time wasting... worked wonders! I have yet to encounter the Wing Back problem...

[papamogl]

Thank you Vinsanity. Will test your suggestions and see how it works.

Aren't the three DCs already set to join the attack on set pieces? In my version they are (2 on go forward and one on mark keeper)

[papamogl]

Here's another video

2nd video

[papamogl]

Hey guys I'm working on version two right now and so far it looks good

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[michaelthestrange]

An even better version? I am currently on a 39 games unbeaten streak in the league and lost only 2 games since I started using your tactic (one of those against Barca in CL, the other one against Wolfsburg in the cup).

[papamogl]

Nice run of form Michael. Let's hope v2 gets even better I'm currently testing some nice new feats for the attacking phase and so far apart from it being fun to watch I'm scoring more than with v1. The defense is stable for me, conceded least goals of all teams twice in two seasons, so I'm quite happy with that.

[sostoss]

Can u post the new tactic ?,i would really like to try it

[papamogl]

Hey sostoss I'm still testing. But if things go welll it shouldn't take too long anymore. Alternatively I could pm you the beta version this evening but be aware that some things still might need to be straightened. It's still beta after all

[sostoss]

ok,thank you papamogl,if it's short before u release the final it's ok i can wait :-),but if u sent even the beta version this evening i would be content.

[papamogl]

Sent you a link sostoss Thanks for your interest

[papamogl]

Two more screenshots. v2 is making good progress

The result against Munich should have been a clearer matter though

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[Ufo]

Hm, i´m really looking forward to try this in the german bundesliga :-)

[AnarchyAnt]

So far I'm 1 win 1 loss with a thoroughly average St Pauli team in Bundesliga 1. I'll keep you up to date!

[ruudvanwarren]

Hi Papamogl, your version 2 seems to be coming along nicely - have you got any idea as to when you'll release it???

[papamogl]

Please do, AnarchyAnt. I'm interested in your findings and results

ruud I can't promise anything but I'm doing some final testing right now. If I don't encounter any flaws or stumble upon some new ideas I want to try I might release it this evening or tomorrow. But if I do it might not be until next week. Stay tuned

[ruudvanwarren]

Please do, AnarchyAnt. I'm interested in your findings and results

ruud I can't promise anything but I'm doing some final testing right now. If I don't encounter any flaws or stumble upon some new ideas I want to try I might release it this evening or tomorrow. But if I do it might not be until next week. Stay tuned

tuned in my friend, tuned in...!!!

[papamogl]

Time for a new screenshot. Just won the Champions League and Premier League second time de suite

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[ruudvanwarren]

Well done mate!!! looks as though it's coming along a treat!!!

[papamogl]

Hey everybody. v2 is up now! You'll find the download link at the bottom of the first post. Have fun and please report back how you like it

[ruudvanwarren]

Have you got a screen shot of your current team?

[papamogl]

Here you go:

Enrique Gonzalez is a regen I played regularly. Not top class yet, but he's young. Hope he'll improve

[Elhan]

Would it be too much to ask what the most mportant changes are in the new version and what the reasoning for them was? I honestly can't see any major changes apart from a few individual instruction tweaks. Lately I've been toying with 3 man defense systems myself (I was originaly trying to counter 3 striker systems in FML, now I'm working on a tactic inspired by Chile), and I can honestly say that you've done a very good job with your defenders. I've made a few tweaks to better suit my teams, and the games I've tried this far have gone quite well, so thumbs up for a excellent implementation of a three man defense and an overall ballanced and stable tactic.

[AnarchyAnt]

I've downloaded version 2, but I think I might stick with 1 for a couple of more games before switching so I can keep you updated on how things go with my average players.

[papamogl]

AnarchyAnt please keep us updated

Thanks Elhan, I too was interested in the Chilean three man defense and took that as a starting point. There are no huge changes in the new version since I wanted to retain the overall style. As you mentioned I tweaked individual instructions, made some changes to the attack (AMCs swapping position, striker as a target man) and adjusted tempo, mentality, and time wasting. So nothing groundbreakingly new but as I think a solid overhaul which should make your team more wayward in the attack and lead to more chances while still retaining defensive stability

[AnarchyAnt]

Just a quick update. I was in 17th place with 1 win, 2 draws and 3 losses when I started using version 1. Since then lost 0-2 away, won 1-0 home, lost 0-3 away, won 1-0 home, draw 1-1 away and draw 1-1 home. I'm now 3-4-5 and in 12th place with my junk team.

If I have a concern it is the amount of shots. I'm averaging less than 10 shots a game. In a few games I've had less than 5. I don't think the problem is the tactic as much as I think it's my team. I'll continue to run this up through the first half of the season before I switch to version 2 and see your changes. I'm super happy with the defense on this tactic!

So far so good! I may not get relegated because of you!

[Elhan]

Just a quick update. I was in 17th place with 1 win, 2 draws and 3 losses when I started using version 1. Since then lost 0-2 away, won 1-0 home, lost 0-3 away, won 1-0 home, draw 1-1 away and draw 1-1 home. I'm now 3-4-5 and in 12th place with my junk team.

If I have a concern it is the amount of shots. I'm averaging less than 10 shots a game. In a few games I've had less than 5. I don't think the problem is the tactic as much as I think it's my team. I'll continue to run this up through the first half of the season before I switch to version 2 and see your changes. I'm super happy with the defense on this tactic!

So far so good! I may not get relegated because of you!

It could help to watch a game in full duration or on extended at least, if your passing is a bit sloppy and you're loosing the ball before you have a chance to play a good final pass, you could perhaps look into adjusting the tempo and time wasting sliders. In my opinion, this tactic does require some technical level from your offensive players, if their first touch is terrible for example you will loose the ball before you can create a good chance.

[AnarchyAnt]

Thanks for the input! I think those are both great ideas, I'm just trying to get a feel for the tactic as built.

I think a lot of people are in my position, there are 1000 tactics out there that work great if you are ManU or Madrid, but what about the people that play Derby County, or St Pauli like me? I was hoping that Papamogl's tactic would be a great starting point for mid-ranked teams or relegation teams (because of the 5 defenders!) After trying the first version for half a season, I'll move to version 2 for half a season and see how everything plays as is. Then it would be much easier to give an idea on slider adjustments for poor teams like mine!

I think you are right, tempo would be one of the first things I would change!