Realistic Attributes replacing CA/PA

[Mitja]

PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.

if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. but to set his limit to 135 is dumb, becouse on next FM his PA might turn into 185. and this happened many times.

far better thing for PA would be a scale system from -1 to -10, for any player not just youngsters. -1 for an old bull, and -10 for best young prospects.

since this is a game, no problem but in real life only god knows someone's potential, but I'm not a believer, I think everything's random

[chopper99]

Having had a few good debates with Mitja about PA I can tell you he's not likely to change his stance on PA

Believe me, I've tried

Anyway, that being said he does put forward some good arguments. I just don't agree with them for many reasons which I've already said lots of times so won't go into again.

What I think we're both edging towards though is the idea of a more fluid development model.

In my version there will be more players with a higher PA, so that more players could become top class. But at the same time a lot more factors would impact development than they do now meaning a lot less players actually would reach their potential.

In essence you'd end up with pretty much the same number of 180+ CA players as you do now, but being able to tell which players they would end up being would be much more difficult. There would be a lot more players who had haigh PA but never got anywhere near it, as well as youngsters who've started nearing their potential before they're 20 (i.e Messi).

But in it all there would still be PA, as some value is needed in the game to stop crazy happenings and top teams just constantly churning out top youngsters because they have the best facilities.

[KK2003]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.

if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. but to set his limit to 135 is dumb, becouse on next FM his PA might turn into 185. and this happened many times.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should a player be limited in this way? You say a player with a CA or 80 CAN'T reach 180, well how high can he reach then? There has to be a cap somewhere, but there will be plenty of 18 year olds with a low CA who can become world stars, similarly there are a high number of young players with a similar CA who won't/can't reach the same heights.

You can't just say Player X has a CA of 80 he can't reach a PA of Y and leave it open-ended. There has to be a limit in place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

far better thing for PA would be a scale system from -1 to -10, for any player not just youngsters. -1 for an old bull, and -10 for best young prospects.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There -1 to -10 is a better system for young players - and is widely used for young players. There's no need to have it in for more established players where it's easier to judge their potential. It would be silly to give C. Ronaldo a potential of -10 when it's clear to anybody that potentially he is one of the best in the world (certainly he's there already).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

since this is a game, no problem but in real life only god knows someone's potential, but I'm not a believer, I think everything's random

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The concept of 'potential' in the real world shouldn't be that hard to grasp - I don't want to debate it too much because the concept doesn't really have a lot to do with FM and therefore needn't be discussed in any great length on here.

In a footballing sense is perhaps one of the easier areas to see that everybody does have a 'cap' on how good they can be. Similarly in an academic sense - if everybody is equal then how come there are people that are naturally more intelligent that others? I consider myself fairly intelligent - I have a GCSE's, A-levels and a degree - but there are many people who are far more intelligent that I am.

With regards to football, even with the best coaching in the world in the best facilities with the greatest will in the world I wouldn't have become a professional footballer. I'd have probably been somewhat better than I am now (ie I'd have a greater 'current ability') but my potential will always stop me from reaching the heights of a Ronaldo or Kaka.

[sten_super]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KK2003:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.

if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. but to set his limit to 135 is dumb, becouse on next FM his PA might turn into 185. and this happened many times.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should a player be limited in this way? You say a player with a CA or 80 CAN'T reach 180, well how high can he reach then? There has to be a cap somewhere, but there will be plenty of 18 year olds with a low CA who can become world stars, similarly there are a high number of young players with a similar CA who won't/can't reach the same heights.

You can't just say Player X has a CA of 80 he can't reach a PA of Y and leave it open-ended. There has to be a limit in place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is, I think, the key part that I don't agree with Mitja on. If you have an open-ended system, constraining development would be a lot more difficult. For example, you would have to stop any development beyond the age of (say) 23, in order to stop all players becoming uber-good. But then you prevent the creation of any "slow-burners", players that get steadily better with age (e.g. Luca Toni). So you can't use that. How do you stop all players improving infinitely?

At the risk of repeating myself, there should definitely be a link between CA and PA (to ensure that you get a spread of youth players, some of whom are good enough to go into the first team almost straight away, while at the same time ensuring that they have room for development). But PA is a realistic and entirely necessary way of capping player ability.

[Law_Man]

Mitja - just to go back to real life for a second (as in fact that is what FM is trying to replicate), when you say that we should have potential ability, what are your views on say a young kid's:

(a) Genetics

(i) Intelligence

(ii) Physical: size, speed, injury

proness

(b) Home environment

© Personality/general outlook on life/keeness

(d) other talents/interests outside of football

For me, (a)(i) intelligence: is fixed.

Alot of (a)(ii) i.e. injury proness, size etc is fixed. Although strength and stamina can speed to a lesser extent can be improved with training.

(b) whilst technically not fixed, in most cases will not change.

© Again, in general this is fixed from a fairly early age and is unlikely to dramatically change in real life (contrary to the 'magic' of FM tutoring....lol)

(d)many good footballers could have gone on to play other types of sport and the intelligent ones could even go onto other professions. Indeed, often you find other sportsman who were in football club youth academies when they were younger.

All of the above points to potential being fixed. Certainly I think by the age of say 15 (i.e. when you get players under your control in FM) then potential is much more fixed too.

[Law_Man]

Just to add to that, in the majority of cases of top top players such as Rooney or Owen, the coaches coaching them knew at a very early age that they were going to be top players. The same coaches also knew that perhaps the majority of their academy 'class-mates' weren't going to be absolute top players. Once in a while a coach might be wrong about a player (a la Andy Johnson - although saying that I don't really count him as a top top player like a Rooney or an Owen) but in general the coaches know what they're doing.

Again, this points to fixed potential ability. I think the best way to avoid having problems with potential ability is not to use FMM or something similar to find out potential ability as it takes some of the realism away.

[Dave C]

Anyone who thinks PA is unrealistic just doesn't understand the first thing about human development.

The use of CA and PA is the simplest way to achieve realistic results. The development model still needs a lot of work, but that's not a flaw of the system.

Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.

We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!

The question isn't one for science, it's for ethics committees and governments.

[Mitja]

law man

I don't think anything is fixed or predetermined in life. oportunities, work an a little bit of luck. no one can tell where's the limit.

I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.

anyway I don't think is that important to argue here about this. you think there is PA in life, I think there isn't. I don't see any problem. we are different we come from diffrerent mentalities, different culture...and everything's ok. we have good proverb in our country; "do you know what was first, a chicken or an egg".

Dave C

"Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.

We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!"

- let's hope that day doesn't come, lol

[Dave C]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

Dave C

"Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.

We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!"

- let's hope that day doesn't come, lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If SI will permit this little wander off-topic, I agree.

I think hope/ambition is one of the most important aspects of humanity, and there are examples of people who have surpassed their genetic limitations through sheer force of will.

On the otherhand, even within your genetic limitations your options aren't likely to be especially narrow. If you are suited to one sport (for instance) there will be plenty of other areas the same gentic skill set will translate to with a different training path.

[KK2003]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, when Zidane was younger there may have been players better than him. And no he didn't just 'stand there and wait for his PA to show up' he had to work hard to reach that level, but the reason he did so was because he had the potential to get there.

Not everyone can succeed. Not everybody can become a professional footballer. Are you seriously saying that with a little more hard work when you were younger (I've no idea how old you are now mind) that you could have become a professional footballer? If you honestly believe that then you are living in a fantasy world.

It's nice to tell everyone that they can succeed, and obviously people have to work very hard to reach their peak, but at the end of the day everybody has a peak and everybody's peak is different.

[Law_Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

law man

I don't think anything is fixed or predetermined in life. oportunities, work an a little bit of luck. no one can tell where's the limit.

I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.

anyway I don't think is that important to argue here about this. you think there is PA in life, I think there isn't. I don't see any problem. we are different we come from diffrerent mentalities, different culture...and everything's ok. we have good proverb in our country; "do you know what was first, a chicken or an egg".

Dave C

"Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.

We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!"

- let's hope that day doesn't come, lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Mitja, we have that proverb too

Don't worry I wasn't trying to have an argument, was just explaining things as I see them.

The reason that Zidane (but Gary Neville is a MUCH) better example succeeded is because they have fairly rare mental attributes that most of the people around them didn't have. This is a personality trait (i.e. extreme determination in the case of Neville) that is rare, and is established a visible from an early age. It is fixed. You can't learn it on a training ground or in a book. You either are like that or you aren't. One of the ways FM tries to replicate this is that if two players have the same PA, and the same training facilities, the one with higher determination (Zidane, Neville a lot of top players generally in any sport, or indeed most people at the pinnacle of any profession or walk of life) will get closest to reaching their potential or indeed reach it.

The fact that Gary Neville was so ultra determined and focused made him train hard and put everything he had into becoming a Man Utd player. It was that determination that gave him the potential to become a Man Utd player. It was then the guidance of his family, of Ferguson, and the coaching and facilities of Man Utd that allowed him to use his determination to achieve it.

[Law_Man]

It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Law_Man:

It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks for proving me right. I agree. that's what is happening now. becouse of PA.

[SiDolman]

in the current system, does the CA rise at the same speed after 23?

If a player has a high PA but languishes in a bad team with little first team experience between the ages of 16-21 (meaning his CA stagnates), if he moved to better training facilities etc which would allow his CA to improve, would he still be able to meet his PA but just at a very late age? Is this possible?

[Mitja]

I think he should be able IRE. but in the game, I don't know.

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is exactly what blows your earlier argument about potential being decided by stats at an early age right out of the water.

You said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.

if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But as your Zidane example proves, attributes at a young age aren't always what really decide how good a kid is going to be in the future. Zidane would have been the kid with the CA of 80 that you said couldn't possibly reach a 185 PA. And his friends at the time may have had a CA of 100+. But their PA would have only been perhaps 120 so they never made it, despite being better than Zidane at the time. But because Zidane always had the potential he just kept getting better and became world class.

[DonnyNoel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Mitja wrote:

quote:

Originally posted by Law_Man:

It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.

thanks for proving me right. I agree. that's what is happening now. becouse of PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. No it isn't. If they were unambitious with low mental/technical attributes they would have either a low PA or have little chance of reaching it. Your arguments are fantastic. But your arrogance is breathtaking.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DonnyNoel:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Mitja wrote:

quote:

Originally posted by Law_Man:

It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.

thanks for proving me right. I agree. that's what is happening now. becouse of PA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. No it isn't. If they were unambitious with low mental/technical attributes they would have either a low PA or have little chance of reaching it. Your arguments are fantastic. But your arrogance is breathtaking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it's important what system there is, more important thing is that it works. my main offence to this system is that everything spins around CA/PA and that isn't realistic at all. performance, stats and atributes are things to be watched, not just CA/PA. and I have nothing more to add about player improvment, I said it all.

[sten_super]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I don't think it's important what system there is, more important thing is that it works. my main offence to this system is that everything spins around CA/PA and that isn't realistic at all. performance, stats and atributes are things to be watched, not just CA/PA. and I have nothing more to add about player improvment, I said it all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is undoubtedly the key. Although everything should continue to spin around CA/PA, it's just that CA and attributes should be much more closely related, and everything should then feed off from this.

[KK2003]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't think it's important what system there is, more important thing is that it works. my main offence to this system is that everything spins around CA/PA and that isn't realistic at all. performance, stats and atributes are things to be watched, not just CA/PA. and I have nothing more to add about player improvment, I said it all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is the current system does revolve around performance, stats and attributes - as these are all you have access to as manager, you're not supposed to know the CA and PA of players, they are there is the background to provide the boundaries.

Also players stats are linked to their CA, hence why some stats will be altered from those that appear in the database to match their CA.