Ajax System for FM2011 onwards “AFC Ajax“ 1990s (Discussion)

[Marz]

Marz are you playing FM10 again at all?

I ‘am restarting my Ajax career game, with the 10.3 data patch. Looking forward to see what the effects of the roaming/free role instructions are.

Good, very good thanks. The 2 CM's the roaming is optional, by default I left them with "no roaming". Check it and see which one suits you best.

Why do you leave your #8&6 (2 CM’s) with instructions to not roam?

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

How are you coming along in your new game?

[Marz]

Marz:

How are you coming along in your new game?

Just in pre-season as I started the game in May (Croatian game start), I was in two minds about playing FM10 at all. The reason I chose the May start was that, it is then possible to choose when to play the mandatory friendly match with Ajax CT (which I like to have as a season opener).

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

Are you still using 3-4-3?

Just in pre-season as I started the game in May (Croatian game start), I was in two minds about playing FM10 at all. The reason I chose the May start was that, it is then possible to choose when to play the mandatory friendly match with Ajax CT (which I like to have as a season opener).

[Marz]

Yes I'am using 3-4-3.

[crazyscotsman]

Have you started regular season play as of yet and if so how is it going?

Yes I'am using 3-4-3.

[Marz]

Still in pre-season, so still busy tweaking and getting to know my staff and playing staff.

[crazyscotsman]

Good Deal - Will you be updating your progress?

Still in pre-season, so still busy tweaking and getting to know my staff and playing staff.

[Marz]

So far I can say with 99% certainty that the system should look like this:-

SL S SR

AMC

MC MC

DMC DR

SW

I ‘am pretty settled on the on the #5 & 2 playing from DL & DR. As playing them from the DC positions destroys any form of build-up in the current match engine. Very obvious when the goalkeepers has a goal kick/or is in possession deep in the teams own half (hopefully semi-positions are introduced with FM11, especially for #8 & 6 MLC & MRC; diamond formations).

I ‘am going to try playing the #4 from DC, but in previous experiments this has failed for me and grimness confirmed that.

[crazyscotsman]

I agree with you both _ didnt work for me either - I'll be interested to see your findings

So far I can say with 99% certainty that the system should look like this:-

SL S SR

AMC

MC MC

DMC DR

SW

I ‘am pretty settled on the on the #5 & 2 playing from DL & DR. As playing them from the DC positions destroys any form of build-up in the current match engine. Very obvious when the goalkeepers has a goal kick/or is in possession deep in the teams own half (hopefully semi-positions are introduced with FM11, especially for #8 & 6 MLC & MRC; diamond formations).

I ‘am going to try playing the #4 from DC, but in previous experiments this has failed for me and grimness confirmed that.

[Marz]

My findings are, that this system or indeed diamond formations (midfield), cannot be replicated accurately. Till Sports Interactive decide to implement MLC MRC DLC DRC positions in the match engine.

[Marz]

Out of interest has anyone tried positioning the players like this in defence:-

DMLC (just of centre towards the left)

DL DR

SWRC (just of centre towards the right)

Or vice-versa DMRC & SWLC?

[crazyscotsman]

I tried it early on in 2010 but felt that the dm played to much on top of the sw

Out of interest has anyone tried positioning the players like this in defence:-

DMLC (just of centre towards the left)

DL DR

SWRC (just of centre towards the right)

Or vice-versa DMRC & SWLC?

[Marz]

That should in theory make it more stable from a defensive point of view. I played with a defence of DL DMC SW DR, for most of pre-season. But the #5 & 2 are playing as if they are in a back 4 (even with the lowest player mentality). And playing them from DC positions makes build-up (goalkeeper distributing to defenders) almost impossible.

So although it looks ridiculous on the tactic screen the DMC playing with a defensive mentality would fill the large hole left by the #5 & 2.

One thing I have not tried yet is to set the full-backs mentality to the team mentality, with the team mentality set to Ultra defensive.

From an attacking point of view the distance between the #3 and #4 should not be that far. If the defence is pushed up to the halfway line, the #3 should be inside your half just inside the centre-circle. With the #4 being inside the opponents half, just on top of the centre-circle.

The #5 & #2 should be between the touchline and the centre-circle.

There are some other factors that come into play like #5, #2 or #4 being further up the pitch, due to being involved in establishment of play, etc.

The opposition’s team behaviour would also count, how many people they leave in counter attacking positions.

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

Correct, defence acts more stable. I had the full back's and dm's mentality set on defensive and Sweeper on ultra

[grimness]

I think that Ultra defensive or offensive team mentality overwrites individual mentality. Someone with insight wrote it some time ago but can't recall was it SI guy or wwfan.

[grimness]

I've just loaded game and Zico10's tactic posted above and moved SW and DM to right and left, so far positioning looks good. When defending fullbacks play narrower and go wide while in possession.

Edit:

On first sight it looks nice but no.8 should be playing further up the pitch so no.4 has space. Also wide play settings for no.8 should be hug touchline as he moves to the center too much, but I think with higher mentality it should be good.

This is just quick observation but point is that DML and SWR seem to work.

[Marz]

Just a quick update.

I have moved the #3 (SW) from off centre, to the centre. The #4 can then go to DMLC or DMRC depending on where you see the opposition threat or weakness (and your own player pool). I think, I will play the #9 (Target man) from the same side as the #4. So DMLC & SLC or DMRC & SRC.

In terms of progress for the midfield, only the developer (Sports Interactive) can help us; as no amount of tinkering will make this aspect realistic. Positioning the midfield with MC MC MC, the central MC (#10) in this match engine pushes out the wide MC’s. Which in turn means that the #8 & 6 (wide MC’s) link up with their wide defenders and wingers; as they are supposed to do. Obvious problem with this is, that the #10 should be playing from the AMC position when the team is in possession and not be making runs to the AMC position. If anything the #10 (AMC) should be making runs to the Striker space.

[Marz]

Marz:

Correct, defence acts more stable. I had the full back's and dm's mentality set on defensive and Sweeper on ultra

I would not recommend instructing the #3 to play an ultra defensive game, as he may become to isolated in defence. His contribution in build-up and establishment of play would also suffer, I have problems with my players contribution from that position (with a mentality setting of 6).

I thought the ultra defensive mentality for the #5 & 2 (fullbacks) would make them play deeper; as they play too much like full-backs in a back 4. But as my assistant manager would use a higher preferred team mentality this idea is just not going to work.

I currently start matches with the #3 (& #4) on the highest defensive mentality (6) with the #5 & 2 on the lowest defensive mentality (1).

On first sight it looks nice but no.8 should be playing further up the pitch so no.4 has space. Also wide play settings for no.8 should be hug touchline as he moves to the center too much, but I think with higher mentality it should be good.

This is just quick observation but point is that DML and SWR seem to work.

I noticed the same problem with my set-up DMLC (mentality 6 & ‘runs from deep’ on rarely) and MCl (mentality 13 with RFD on rarely), both on roaming. So I instructed the #8 to hug the touchline, but this creates a problem. As the player in question then interferes too much with the space of the #11 (left winger). So I instructed the #8 to move back into the channel but set his RFD to mixed, might even try often or use a higher mentality for the #8 & #10; like you already mentioned.

This brings me onto another point. Which is that the more attacking one of either #8 or #6 (aMC) needs to be the one who is supported/covered by the #4 with the other MC being on RDF rarely:-

aMCl MCr

DMLC

Or

MCl aMCr

DMRC

When possession is lost the team should have DL SW DR covering the defensive line left, centre and right. While the #4 together with the normal holding midfielder would cover the space in front of the defensive line. Basically a 3-2 set-up when possession is lost.

[SUCK IT]

Marz what is the general shape and philosophy of this tactic

[Marz]

I do not use the tactic wizard so I can not advise you 100% correctly on that aspect. From the FM online manual I understand its "Philosophies can range from Very Rigid to Very Fluid". My guess is that this is in terms of player roles etc, with total football being very fluid (and something like Carlo Ancelotti Milan being very rigid).

One of the criticism towards Van Gaal’s system/tactics when in charge of Ajax, were that his team was less creative and fluid, than past Ajax sides. For one the traditional switching of the players was not encouraged as much as in the 1970s and onwards.

So you can rule out a very fluid approach. A very rigid approach can also be ruled out on the basis that the back 3 have to participate in build-up and establishment of play. This is due to the teams’ aim of trying to play in the opponents half.

I would say the aim is for the team to play fluid football. This seems to be supported when you look at the changes in mentality when switching from rigid to balanced to fluid.

Shape should be a diamond 3-4-3 when in possession, with the wingers and half-backs taking care of the flanks, which then means a narrow diamond (but not as narrow as the current ME allows).

When the team is not in possession the teams shape should be 4-3-3, but this is generally speaking.

[SUCK IT]

Thanks for the input Marz

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

What kind of results have you been getting Home and Away?

[Marz]

So far only one bad result against PSV, were they equalised in injury time to get a draw.

[crazyscotsman]

marz:

By what kind of margin are you winning?

[Marz]

marz:

By what kind of margin are you winning?

H 2-1 AC Milan

H 2-0 At. Madrid

A 2-1 FC Groningen

H 3-0 RKC

A 1-1 PSV

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

When introducing substitutes to replace low conditioning at what point are you sending them on 75%?

H 2-1 AC Milan

H 2-0 At. Madrid

A 2-1 FC Groningen

H 3-0 RKC

A 1-1 PSV

[SUCK IT]

Marz, could you post a picture of your current so we can get a more visual idea of your formation, rather than text

[Marz]

Thank you Zico for the screenshoot

[SUCK IT]

Interesting Set Up There, will look to try it after my current 4-4-2 venture. Im sure it is something we can get working to some extent

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

Did you try playing the L & R strikers from the AMR and AML position as true wingers?

[Marz]

Marz:

Did you try playing the L & R strikers from the AMR and AML position as true wingers?

Yes of course I have tried that. But historically speaking they are only true/real wingers, when you play them as SL/FL and SR/FR.

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

Are you then training your SL/FL and SR/FR as strikers or wingers?

[Marz]

Marz:

Are you then training your SL/FL and SR/FR as strikers or wingers?

Both, as I need them to be accomplished at S and AML/R. If I retrain a player who has no positional sense in either of the positions, I start training him at AML/R ability first (if he is a right footer then AMR and vice versa). Followed by the S position and then the other AML/R position to give myself more options.

[grimness]

I think the biggest problem everyone faces is setting up the back four. To make my life easier I started test save with Holland and Brazil loaded and game start set at December 2008. That leaves me plenty of time for testing without competitive pressure and transfer battles.

I decided to go with Creator and then tweak as needed.

Philosophy was set to Fluid as I've discovered that defense works better then with Rigid or Balanced. Players cover for each other when one leaves his position, especially when chasing the ball, this was also noticed by SFraser so I knew I saw it correctly.

With Attacking strategy defensive line was set to first notch of Push-up so defenders were pretty much near the center line when having the ball.

Initial Individual roles were like this:

#2 & #5 - Fullback - Defend

#3 - Ball playing Defender - Cover - with one centerback there is no difference regardless which duty you put but it's good to have in case you play Libero at CB position for some reason.

#4 - Deep lying playmaker - Defend

I've went for #3 at centerback position because Vertonghen is only SW in the team (I play him as #4) and I wanted to see how will things work with CB-DM combination. Things worked better then with SW-DM as both players were covering each other and when needed played as pair of centerbacks. When #3 would come out with the ball to start a counter, #4 would drop on his place, something that lacked with SW-DM positioning.

Fullbacks on Creator settings didn't look as good as I planned so I tweaked them. Mentality to highest defensive, Creative freedom to lowest normal and Closing down to highest of own area.

Still there was difference in how Atouba and Ogararu played with Atouba playing narrower and Ogararu really wide. First thought was PPMs.

Ogararu has Run with ball down right side and Gets forward while Atouba has Tries to play way out of trouble.

Since those tweaks didn't help with Ogararu, Oleguer was tried as FB as he has Stays back and Plays out of trouble PPMs and things looked as they should.

#4 participates in build-up and in defence. I'm satisfied so far with what I've seen and both Vertonghen and Gabri have good mental stats so they are playing positionally very well.

Gonna play with attack settings but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Initial settings:

Wingers on support with Hugs touchline and Man marking seems to stretch the defense, without that they played somewhat narrow, regardless of maximum width in team settings.

Attacking Midfielder with attack duty seems to play better with Move into channels and no roaming as Advanced forward creates space.

Central midfielders are on Attack and Support duties and Move into channels seems to add some width. Not as I would like but still better then without any.

This were just tweaks I've done so far and it's nowhere near done but I want to do it step by step.

[Marz]

I've went for #3 at centerback position because Vertonghen is only SW in the team (I play him as #4) and I wanted to see how will things work with CB-DM combination. Things worked better then with SW-DM as both players were covering each other and when needed played as pair of centerbacks. When #3 would come out with the ball to start a counter, #4 would drop on his place, something that lacked with SW-DM positioning.

I too have gone back to playing the #3 from DC, but lowered the CD (closing down) to just in front of the own area. With #5 & 2 and #4 having the same closing down instructions.

Fullbacks on Creator settings didn't look as good as I planned so I tweaked them. Mentality to highest defensive, Creative freedom to lowest normal and Closing down to highest of own area.

Still there was difference in how Atouba and Ogararu played with Atouba playing narrower and Ogararu really wide. First thought was PPMs.

Ogararu has Run with ball down right side and Gets forward while Atouba has Tries to play way out of trouble.

Since those tweaks didn't help with Ogararu, Oleguer was tried as FB as he has Stays back and Plays out of trouble PPMs and things looked as they should.

#4 participates in build-up and in defence. I'm satisfied so far with what I've seen and both Vertonghen and Gabri have good mental stats so they are playing positionally very well.

CF (Creative freedom) should not be on the lowest normal setting (I too started like that). As that will result in hurried clearances when possession is regained deep in your own half (one way of looking at CF is, how much time you allow your players on the ball). They should when possible play themselves out of trouble. The other side effect of low CF is that in build-up and establishment of play, they will also be hurried and take safe options.

Closing down, when in control (normal/standard Ajax playing style) should be around the half-way line from your defensive line. I currently have the #5 & 2 and #4 on the highest own half, with the #3 sweeping (lower CD; although mine might be to low at the moment). This then allows the #8 & 6 and #10 to close down inside the opponents half (3 notches up from the defensive line/defenders #5, 2 & 4). While the Wingers are 2 notches up (19 CD) from the #8 & 6 and Striker is closing down all the way towards the opposition GK.

But this needs to be tweaked according to the opposition and your own players. For example at the moment Wielaert is injured, so I’am playing the slower Alderweireld there. So if the opposition have a quick striker I drop all players CD by 3 or 4 along with the (team) Defensive line.

In my game Atouba is Outspoken, Volatile and Confrontational add to that that he has low concentration, decisions, teamwork and workrate, so a player for the transfer list; with Sulejmani and Lodeiro as regular left winger.

I sold Ogararu on to Auxerre, as he refused to adapt his game (forward runs often).

Gabri can play the #4 but his heading might cause you problems in the long run. When Vertonghen can not play the #4, I normally play De Zeeuw there, only problem being his PPM of short simple passes.

[grimness]

Gonna try other settings. Ogararu and Atouba were first choice due to van der Wiel's injury but I'll go with other players. Ogararu can be used as #3. Atouba has right stats for the winger so I'll probably use him there.

Lodeiro is my #10 as Aissati will play from #8. Also in other saves I used him on right wing and he did really well.

Changed central midfielders to Advanced playmakers on support and attack but I'll set them up properly. Running from deep is really powerful so it requires lower mentality if it's on often.

[grimness]

Ogararu definitively isn't player for Ajax in such system. OK if you play with flat back four but when playing with three at the back he pushes forward. Tried him at #3 and due to his PPMs he pushes forward with or without ball which then pushes #4 further and leaves opposition striker behind him. I tried it with adjusted closing down as Marz mentioned.

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

What tempo are you starting with under regular circumstances?

[Marz]

Marz:

What tempo are you starting with under regular circumstances?

Highest normal (14)

[warm]

I've taken the advice from this thread and tried to create the Ajax system with Liverpool. The squad's good, but after some good results the computer has found a way to constantly feed balls to the two attackers who bang goals in. On the other end I have 60% possession and lose.

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

will you be posting your tactic any time soon?

[Marz]

I've taken the advice from this thread and tried to create the Ajax system with Liverpool. The squad's good, but after some good results the computer has found a way to constantly feed balls to the two attackers who bang goals in. On the other end I have 60% possession and lose.

The problem is that the wide defenders in the back 3 in the current match engine have to be played in either DL/DR or DC. When in real life they would play in what would be a DLC/DRC position. So you will have to compensate by playing them at DL/DR when facing wide AM/S. And at DC when facing 2 opposing strikers. That is what I have started to do. The problem is that the managers of your youth and reserve sides will not be able to do this.

[Marz]

Marz:

will you be posting your tactic any time soon?

Sorry I have hardly played FM10 lately. Before that I was working on a few tactics. But I might try the new wizard, as my assistant seem to struggle with classic tactic in their matches with the U18’s and reserve teams (U21).

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

do you have #'s 7 & 11 set up as true wingers or inside forwards?

[quantez3]

I dont think the wingers should be inside forwards because they need to make width so they can cross to nr. 9 (1st post) and nr. 10 (2nd post). Also nr 6 & 8 (&10) can use the space between the winger and striker to run into.

[Marz]

I dont think the wingers should be inside forwards because they need to make width so they can cross to nr. 9 (1st post) and nr. 10 (2nd post). Also nr 6 & 8 (&10) can use the space between the winger and striker to run into.

Correct they are the ones who create the space for the #9 & #10 and midfield runners.

[Marz]

One solution to the current problem would be to position the front six like this:-

SL--------S--------SR

--------AMC--------

----MC----MC----

While either the right or left defender, playing from full-back (the goalkeeper is also set to distribute to this player & defenders to collect). With the #4 (DMC) still playing slightly off centre and the #3 playing from the central DC position. While the last defender plays from the DC on side without the full-back:-

----DMC------------

DL--------DC----DC

or

-------------DMC----

DC----DC--------DR

Not ideal but at least somewhat of a solution to the current problem. On the side without the full-back I normally play my sitting holding midfielder; runs from deep set to rarely. With the more attacking midfielder set to mixed or often.

[crazyscotsman]

Marz:

I am currently playing as follows:

Against 442 _ SL-----S-----SR

AMC

MC MC

DM

DCL-----DCR

SW

Against other formations I move the DCL & DCR to DL & DR.

I like playing with the Sweeper and seems to be working fine for me at the moment.

One question I have for you - can you please explain how and when do you change your tempo.

[Marz]

I’am currently tweaking tempo, it is currently set back to default (10). I did have it at 14 but I had forgotten that, tempo is not just the how fast the players will pass the ball. But also how quick your team will try to create goal scoring opportunities.

In terms of tempo I like to play within a normal style of tempo. When the team is leading, I look to slow down the play. Especially when I have league and cup matches in the same week or close together. I also decrease mentality slight as that will impact on the players risk taking with possession. Time wasting is something I tend not to increase, and leave till the last few minutes of cup games or very important league games when the opponents can still get a result.

In terms of increasing tempo, I do this when the opponents park the bus. The width of the team also needs to be increased. As you want to stretch the opponents defence and penetrate with quick passes.