burnum
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Posts posted by burnum
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@Experienced Defender Thanks for your suggestions, they really helped a lot (from a small sample-size of 5 test games against Hoffenheim). Switching to a mid block really helped defensively. My testing with your suggested changes showed that my 'normal' base tactic (with the Wingbacks and IW/IF) somehow works better against that 532 than my Guardiola-inspired '532-beater' tactic (with IWB and Wingers). In theory that doesn't really make sense to me but as long as I've found a way to be successful against the 532 I'm content.
Now one thing that still needs improvement after the changes to mid-block is possession. At home with Bayern against Hoffenheim I only average around 40 percent (should be more around 60 percent with Bayern at home). Don't get me wrong, your tweaks to my tactics have been tremendous - they just changed the way my team plays.
Here are some ideas of how I might try to improve possession numbers (my board wants possession football as part of the club vision - and to be honest, I like possession football):
- lower mentality to Balanced (do I still have enough urgency to break down defensive/cautious teams?)
- lower tempo (not sure about lower tempo paired with shorter passing)
- remove 'Be More Expressive' (although I think I have the right players to use it to my advantage with Thiago & Coutinho)
- remove 'Counter' in transition (does it rob me of some some good chances?)
Any ideas how to tweak the tactic to get possession up into the 50-60 percent range (Bayern averaged around 63 percent in real life last season)?
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As the topic suggests, I need help with my tactics against the CPU using 532 formations. Against most other formations I have found good ways to play them from my base 433 formation (4141 DM Wide in FM20 terms). To test my tactics I've set up a test-save with FC Bayern in the German Bundesliga. I have superior players by a pretty wide margin, so I should have an advantage in terms of individual player quality in most games. Against most other formations that advantage is enough to easily win those games. However, as soon as the opponent is playing some form of the 532 in combination with counter pressing, I just can't beat them at all. Leipzig and Hoffenheim are two teams in Germany who use the 532 (inspired by Julian Nagelsmann). Both teams usually sit back and protect their box with everyone but their 2 strikers (who pressure my buildup-play) and then, as soon as they win the ball, they fly forward to hit me on the counter - either with long balls over the top to their strikers, or with runs from their wingbacks or midfielders.
This is the formation that I need help against:
Hoffenheim 532 Gegenpressing with Cautious mentality
Leipzig 532 Gegenpressing with Defensive mentality
This is my normal formation, which I use as my base formation. Depending on opposing shape/mentality and game situation I might tweak slightly from game to game. But against anything aside from 532 formations, this is my base formation: pretty standard 433 formation, created to fit the strengths of Bayern. Alaba bombs downs to help on the left flank, Kimmich is a tad more conservative on the right, as he needs to cover for the AP-a. Gnabry on the right is more of a goal-scoring threat while Coutinho/Coman on the left are more creators than finishers. Lewandowski might be the best allround striker in the world, thus the CF role (although I could also see him as a PF-a). I usually change the DM role from game to game, based on opponent and in-game-situation.
I've tried to educate myself on the subject and tried to replicate what Guardiola did when he faced Chelsea under Conte (who was using a similar tactic at the time):
This is my tweaked formation to combat the strengths of the 532 Gegenpressing formation - I changed the wingbacks to IWB-s to act more like midfielders and to take away the numbers advantage of the 532 in the centre of the pitch. I also changed my DM to Halfback to help against the two opposing strikers but also provide a passing outlet. On the flanks I now use Wingers to provide width and stretch the opposing defense (because the Wingbacks are now inverted and won't do that anymore). I also added TI to play as wide as possible.
No matter what I do, it just won't work. If I increase mentality to Attacking I get hit over the top with long balls. If I lower mentality to Balanced I can't seem to break them down.
Long story short - I can't get anything to work against that 532 Gegenpressing formation described above. I need your help!!!
@Experienced Defender @Rashidi @herne79
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I'll give this a go, let's see if it still works...
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Being 6'6" myself, the TM is my favourite role in all of football, although I rarely use it on FM, as I usually prefer lone-striker systems. Wout Weghorst (Wolfsburg), Mario Mandzukic (Juve), Wesley (Villa), Ishak Belfodil and even Andy Carroll (when he's not injured) should all make for great Target Men. If you're a smaller team you could try Yaya Sanogo (usually gets transfer-listed by Toulouse). Pietro Pellegri and Gobe Gouano are two youngsters from the Monaco Reserves who could be developed into great TM as well.
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb knap:
The set up and test only uses 1 mentality.
I didn't mean the test runs. Do you only use 1 mentality when you actually play the game (e.g. your 'main save')? Or do you switch it up, based on opposition and/or situation?
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@knap Do you ever change mentality based on home/away or based on opponents or do you just plug and play regardless of the matchup?
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I don't understand how this isn't getting more love. Great tactics for any mid-table or below team. All you need is a good passing DM and wing-backs who can run up and down the field all game.
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Ok, I did some testing and fine-tuning. First thing to say - this tactic works really well when implemented correctly. But the tendency remains that it's better suited for underdog or mid-table teams than for the giants of their respective leagues. Using Bayern München I beat Real Madrid (CL group stage game, tough draw) away at Bernabeu. Won the game 1-0 with the goal coming with a header from a corner, but the result could've been even better if my strikers could convert some one-on-ones. We've had 3 CCC and an additional 5 half-chances (Real: 0 CCC, 1 HC). Most of my chances came from long through balls by the RPM. The RPM player is basically your Quarterback - he decides when and where the ball goes and chooses his receivers (the strikers, Mezzalas and sometimes even the wing-backs). You need a creative, passing player in the RPM position for this to work - he's the most important player on your team. Think of someone like Pirlo or Xabi Alonso in their primes.
However, when you play against smaller teams who park the bus and stay deep with 9 or 10 players, this tactic has some problems in breaking them down and creating clear chances. Your attack in this tactic is very reliant on through balls from the RPM but if the opponent are sitting deep to only protect their own box, then you simply don't have any space for your 'receivers' to run into. In those cases we're lacking a 'Plan B' to break down the opposing defense. Maybe lowering the mentality and/or instructing to a shorter passing game could help in those situations. I beat Real Madrid, the next game I went to a 1-1 against Augsburg. I beat Benfica 2-0, then had a disappointing 0-0 against Union Berlin (17th in Bundesliga).
Some tweaks I've made when defending a narrow lead in the last couple of minutes:
- lower mentality (obviously)
- change both CWB from Attack to Support duty
- change RPM-s to DLP on Defend duty (he'll still play those through balls but he'll stay in a deeper position)
- (depending on how your opponent attacks): change the middle CD to a Cover duty and remove offside trap to to decrease chances of being hit over the top
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Thanks for the reply, makes perfect sense on paper. Last question for the moment: Do you care about what your player's strong/weak foot is? Your tactic has several positions that mirror each other (DCL & DCR, Mez-L & Mez-R, STC-L & STC-R), conventional wisdow would suggest to play players to the side of their stronger foot in case of the CB and Mezzala positions - not sure about the strikers (meaning I'd put my lefty DC to DCL and my lefty MC to Mez-L and vice versa).
Do you care about those details or am I overcomplicating things?
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As someone who's new in the 3-in-the-back world, I've never played with CWB-at. What would you do with those typical Inside Forward guys (Coman, Gnabry, Perisic)? Would you retrain the usual DL/DR (Alaba & Kimmich in my case) to play CWB or does the role allow for a more attacking wingman, like Perisic, Gnabry or Coman? I have 3 good Wingers/IF in my squad but now that I don't use that role anymore, I need to find other roles for them.
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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Mr U Rosler:
Hi Burnum
Good to see you're still around, wasn't it Paderborn you played back in the day?
You're right, that was back in FM18 (I skipped FM19 and just went from 18 to 20). I live in Paderborn, so they're my hometown team. I live 2 miles from their stadium.
'Work Ball Into Box' is already ticked (green) in your tactic. Did I miss anything? One more change I made was to the GK distribution: Your tactic instructs the GK to throw long to the Wing Backs. I've changed it to simply distribute to either the Full Backs or the Centre Backs (all of my back 5 are ok at the ball). Also I don't want to restrict Neuer to always throw the ball, so I just removed the 'throw long' instruction and left it up to him to decide.
Another change I'm contemplating has to do with the middle guy of the three Centre Backs. I might tinker with using him as a BPD as I have several CD who fit the role and have the PPM 'brings ball out of defense'. I thought someone like Boateng, Javi Martinez or Pavard should be able to bring the ball out and lay off to Thiago in the RPM position.
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Glad to see you back, Rösler. I've been trying to create my own tactics the last few days but I can't get my style of football ('Guardiola'esque') to work consistently on the current ME. Those Gegenpressing tactics with 3 centre-backs seem to be the flavour of the month. After experimenting with different versions of my favourite formations (4123 and 4231) I've given up for the time being. As I've always liked your tactics and your open way of communication, I've decided to give these tactics a try.
You've mentioned that the tactic is designed for smaller teams as some kind of underdog tactics. I'm going the completely opposite direction, trying to fine-tune your Stockport version to fit for bigger teams (who the AI will park the bus against). I'll test it with Bayern in the German Bundesliga. First impressions are really promising (albeit a very small sample size).
I've made the following changes to fit my team:
- remove 'Get Stuck In' (to avoid too many yellow/red cards as a top team like Bayern shouldn't be dependent on extreme physicality)
- changed GK to Sweeper Keeper on Attack duty (playing a very high D-Line and we have THE prototypical Sweeper Keeper in Manuel Neuer)
- switched 'low crosses' to 'mixed crosses' (we have Lewandowski up front who is quite good in the air; also our wide players should have good enough decision-making to decide on their own whether to cross high or low)
I'll see what I can do with it and if/how I need to tweak it any further against teams who park the bus. First impressions show that we don't get a lot of possession using this tactic, so maybe I can tweak it to become a bit less direct in favour to gain more control of possession (although I don't think the current ME is suited to possession football)...
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@Experienced Defender Thanks for your feedback. I've toned it down considerably. This is how it looks now when I play decent teams who are good on the counter. You mentioned there would be a couple more issues to resolve. What should I change from here on?
Note: Both WB have the PI to stay wider in possession to bring width to the formation when attacking. On paper, my theory was that Alaba, Müller, Coman (and even Thiago to an extend) could overload the left side to free up Lewa and Gnabry. Ignore Goretzka in the screenshot, he doesn't fit the role. Usually I have Tolisso or Martinez playing in that spot.
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I have real problems using a 4123 or 4231 against Leipzig. I have the slightly superior individual players but I can't create anything from open play. The play a 532 formation on Defensive mentality. I've tried multiple different mentalities/instructions/roles against this. Any ideas?
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Against smaller teams like Mainz, Paderborn or Augsburg I usually have no problems to dominate the with my 4231 with Bayern. However, I keep getting destroyed on the counter against better teams like Leipzig, Dortmund or Schalke. I switch mentality based on opponents (Attacking at home against small teams, Positive away against small teams, Balanced against good teams).
Here are my two tactics I use (based on who plays in the AMC role). Whenever I play decent or good teams, I switch to Balanced mentality and drop my D-Line to 'Standard'.
@Johnny Ace @Experienced Defender Any suggestions what I should change to be less vulnerable against gegenpressing & counter attacking teams?
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Johnny Ace:
If you look how they lined up yesterday, they played Kimmich DMC, he quite often plays the holding midfielder role. Couthino plays out wide left in an assumed playmaker role with Gnabry over on the other flank. Muller doesn't play all that often & if he does it's in centre mid of out on the right but he plays like a shadow striker, sits very narrow in behind the striker constantly in the box. I think the RMD game role is far to aggressive for that.
You could even say they do line 4-2-3-1, I can't see Muller sitting in the centre of the pitch so he may well play AMC but I didn't see the game
With the Bayern squad you have options but I'm waiting for ME updates before I go for a 4-2-3-1 again
As a lifelong Bayern fan from Germany I'm usually watching all the games (although I've only seen the 1st half yesterday). Bayern had a coaching change 3 weeks ago, so they're in a bit of a 'regrouping stage' at the moment under new Interim Manager Hansi Flick. Under fromer Manager Kovac, Müller and Javi Martinez didn't play at all, now under Flick Müller's place in the first team seems to be safe again (he's been playing instead of Thiago for the last 3 games, Thiago seems to have fallen out of favour of the new coach).
In real life Müller is somewhat a player without a real position. He's played as a lone striker, as a second striker in 2-striker systems, out on the right flank and also in an attack-minded central midfield role. In my personal opinion, Müller has been at his best when used as a second striker behind a more advanced striker. In FM terms that could either be as a Shadow Striker from the AMC position or as a DLF in a 2-striker formation (e.g. 442).
The Raumdeuter role was named after Müller (former player Mehmet Scholl once created the term Raumdeuter for Müller when he was a youngster under Louis van Gaal). In FM terms I agree with you that Müller is not really suited for the Raumdeuter role, as he simply lacks speed and technical skills to play on the flanks. In any single-striker system his best positions are probably a Shadow Striker from the AMC position in a 4231 or as a Mezzala on attack duty from the right CM spot in a 4123.
As for Coutinho, I usually play him as an AP in the AMC position because I use Coman and Gnabry as my wingers/IF. Sometimes I use him as a IF on the left, if Coman is unavailable or in need of a rest. Not really committed to creating a tactic around Coutinho, as he's only on loan and I'm reluctant to pay 100+ million for him (I might consider bringing in Havertz after the season should I decide to continue using the 4231).
You're correct on Kimmich being used as the DMC at the moment. Pavard is used as the RB (where Kimmich used to play). However, in FM Pavard is more of a central defender and lacks the speed and technical skills to get forward as a wing back - thus I prefer Kimmich as my DR and Pavard is my #3 centre-back.
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Those are my two preferred tactics as well. In a perfect world I'd find a way to use both tactics (4123 and 4231) based on opponents' strength, formation and mentality. With Bayern I've found the current squad is more suited to a 4231 because Javi Martinez is basically the only one who could play a defensive-minded DMC role (assuming you use Kimmich as your right back). Also Coutinho and Müller don't have a real place in a 4123, whereas in a 4231 we could use at least one of them in their strongest position (AMC). I usually try to use Coutinho as an AP (with Lewandowski as an AF in front of him) or I use Müller as a Shadow Striker (with Lewandowski as a F9). I might as well use Müller occasionally on the right wing (AMR) as a Raumdeuter with Lewa in a F9 role but usually Gnabry is my first choice as an IF there.
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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:
Yeah, I've moved onto FM20 now, the 4-2-31 isn't working as I'd like right now, I pretty much moved on from that save as soon as FM20 dropped
What tactics/style are you using in FM20 then?
I'm starting a FM20 save with FC Bayern, looking to make either a 4123 or 4231 work.
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@knap I'm looking for a Guardiola'esque tactic for big teams, either from a 4231 or 4123 base. A lot of possession and high pressing, basically dominating inferior competition. Anything you could recommend?
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Trying to replicate this tactic for FM 18. Looks promising so far (small sample size). Could you post individual player instructions for each position (e.g. BBM get further forward, move into channels)?
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Cleon, do you think it makes sense to play wider to create more space?
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I know you want to keep it simple but wouldn't it make sense to use the 'Pass Into Space' TI? Our main goal is to sit deep to have space ahead of us - so why not instructing our players to use this space with the TI?
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Do you recommend inverted feet for the Wide Midfielders (right footed player at LM) or a classical setup (right footed player at RM)? If they don't cross a lot then inverted should make some sense, right?
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This is a great article, thanks Cleon for writing this. I just got Brentford promoted to the Premier League, so I can use any help possible to keep them up.
Just one small question about your tactics: why do you use Wide Midfielders for the LM/RM roles instead of classic Wingers? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?
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Need help against 532 Gegenpressing formations
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Again, thanks for your advice. My thought behind the Dribble Less TI was to replicate the Guardiola style to a certain extend with a shorter passing game and heavy ball-circulation. I had my IF/IW (Coutinho/Coman left, Gnabry right) on PI to Dribble More.
Will now implement some of your suggested tweaks to increase possession:
- switched AP from attack to support
- removed 'Dribble Less', only put a PI on my DM to dribble less (both centre-backs have it hardcoded already)
- removed 'Counter'
- removed 'Be More Expressive' with the option of turning it back on during a game if in need of a goal
I'm not touching LOE at this time but that would be the next step if possession numbers are still too low. Will see how it all works together once I get back from work tomorrow afternoon.
Thank you, you've been incredibly helpful.