burnum
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Posts posted by burnum
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I've got some questions about this tactic as I'm trying to implement and tweak these tactics for my West Ham team:
Who is usually your top scorer (goals) in this tactic and where do the most assists come from (which position)?
Any ideas on getting another role for the striker to work in this tactic? I've got a great striker (Odsonne Eduard) who is a clinical scorer but doesn't offer much as a passer.
I assume you put your best playmaker-type at Regista. What type of player are you looking for in the Mezzala role? Would you recommend more of a playmaker-type (Fornals in my case) or more of a physical guy (size/speed) in the Mezzala role?
Is there any downside to playing both DC as BPD if I have two guys who are good on the ball?
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This looks very promising. Exactly the type of football I want my team to play. The fact that you didn't use a ton of PI gives us a lot of room to use this tactic as a base and tweak from there (e.g. tell your REG to take more long shots if he's good at it or employing a hard-tackling pressing block with your midfielders). I tried to make something like this work a couple of weeks ago but I failed - now you've created exactly what I had in mind all along. Thanks!
One note: Set pieces can be improved upon quite easily, should make this tactic even better.
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vor 5 Minuten schrieb knap:
Tested like that and most of my tactics are not the same either side to create variety.
If I wanted both sides the same, would you rather add man-marking to AML or remove man-marking from AMR?
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@knap In HGF 451 the IF on the right side (AMR) is set to man-mark the opposing DL but the IF on the left side (AML) is not set to man-mark anyone. Is that done by design or is it an error in my version of the tactic? If done by design, could you explain why the DL gets man-marked and the DR does not?
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A ton of great tactics, as usual. However, I personally just don't like the 'Get Stuck In' TI, as it's just about the polar opposite of how I want my team to play. Nothing bad with it in general, it's just a matter of my personal preference.
If I just removed the 'Get Stuck In' from any of your tactics (e.g. 4231 Parisienne or 4123 Time), how much of a dropoff in performance would you estimate?
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Am 8.3.2020 um 09:57 schrieb nexting:
Boubakary Soumare?
Nice one, he was one of my final candidates for the Vidal-role in the end.
Am 8.3.2020 um 10:29 schrieb calvin:
Bought him from Lanus. With AZ though, don't know wether he'll be any good in a top top team. But I guess so ...
Had him scouted but my scouts came back and only gave him 2,5 star potential, so he just wasn't good enough in my save.
vor 2 Stunden schrieb Blue 4 Life:Tonali
Good player, no doubt. But he's not the type of player I was looking for. Tonali is more of a typical DLP, like Veratti (PSG) or Thiago (Bayern). Tonali is simply not physical enough and not defensively strong enough for my intended role. He's Pirlo, not Vidal.
After scouting around 20 players for that "Vidal'esque" role, I ended up signing Florentino Luis from Benfica. Quite expensive but he seems to be exactly what I was looking for. Great mentals and defensive stats, decent physical and technical stats.
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I'm looking for a player who can play a role similar to Arturo Vidal when he was with Juventus & Bayern. An allround midfielder with strength, workrate, tackling but also some technical and passing skills, playing from either the MC or DMC position. Camavinga comes to mind (he could be molded into such a player) but he's already moved to PSG in my save.
Any suggestions?
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2 more ideas:
- What do you think about changing the DM-s to Halfback on defend duty?
- What about instructing the keeper to distribute to Centre Backs and Full Backs to encourage building up from the back instead of playing the long ball? This should also increase possession numbers.
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@crusadertsar In the tactic you've put up for download (LeftRaumdeuter) the AML is in a IF on support duty, while in the screenshot in your main post Villa is a IF on attack duty. Which one would you recommend? In theory, that position should be one of your main goal scorers, so attack duty should make sense. Could you elaborate on why he's on support duty in the download version?
Why do you use the 'Run At Defense' TI? Aren't Guardiola's teams known for passing rather than dribbling? In theory that TI tells all players to dribble more. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it unticked and tell the AML/AMR and the Mezzala to dribble more on an individual basis (via PI)?
Don't get me wrong - I love what you're doing. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.
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Awesome. This is exactly the way I want my teams to play, although I've struggled mightily so far on FM20...
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This is actually a great way to make the transfer market more realistic. This thread deserves more attention!
@majesticeternity: Did you ever think about sharing your data with SI so they can implement a more realistic transfer model into future games?
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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Experienced Defender:
If you are asking about your right back, then yes - switch his duty from
attackto support and that should be okay. When I use such combo - FBsu, CMat and Wsu - it generally works well for me, both in defense and attack (speaking of course about the 4141dm wide formation). Depending on how good as a player your RB is, you may even consider an IWB on support, but that's a more demanding role and requires a different set of attributes. And given that you are in a lower league, I guess the IWB would not be a good idea in this particular case though.No. I would rather go with a WB on support (instead of
FBon support). With a DLP and attacking IF in front of him, WBsu would make most sense in terms of overall tactical balance. Of course, pay attention to the player playing the role to see if he can perform it properly.As for the rest of your tactic, your instructions suggest you are basically trying to play a counter-attacking style of football (although a couple of TIs are still confusing me a bit). If so, then probably some more tweaking would be needed.
Could you explain the differences between a FB on attack and a WB on support? I understand that a WB offers better support going forward whereas a FB starts from a deeper position. My theory always was that a FB on attack duty bombs forward as soon as he sees the chance, although he starts from a very deep position. Basically he needs to be able to run up and down the flank all game. In comparison I always thought a WB on support duty starts a bit higher in his basic position but doesn't bomb forward as far and as often (due to being on support duty and not attack duty).
Obviously my logic is flawed. Could you explain what the difference is between those positions?
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@Experienced Defender I could really need your help here... After some testing, the Regista system seems to work half-decently but the Halfback system is completely useless.
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I'm trying to make 2 versions of a 433 work (4141 DM Wide in exact FM terms, but it plays like a 433). The 2 systems look similar on paper but there's a big difference in how they (should) play. I'm testing both systems with Bayern. They're the strongest team in the German league, they have the squad to play a possession based 433. If I can't make it work with Bayern, I'm basically lost and shouldn't bother trying with other teams...
What am I trying to achieve?
- 2 different tactics from the same shape/formation to attack opponents in different ways
- functional possession: Winning games is, of course, the main goal. But we want to play in a dominant way. I don't need to completely dominate possession but I'd prefer if we kept 50+ percent possession in most games. Being dangerous but also keeping possession a bit.
- replicate the way Bayern have generally played over the last decade under Van Gaal, Guardiola, Heynckes and now Flick (I'm aware there are differences in how they played under the different managers but the general emphasis on 'dominant football', patient buildup until an opening comes up has always been the same).
Both systems employ 'Positive' mentality and a split pressing block. All front 5 players (with the exception of Thiago) have a PI to press more. I use 'dribble more' and 'be more expressive' (both only apply to the attacking phase in the final third) as it suits my players. But this is not something I insist on. If it helps to enhance performance, I'm more than willing to change this.
Non negotiables in the playing style:
- Play out of defense
- GK distribution to defenders & fullbacks
- Work ball into box
- The use of either a 433 or 4231 system
Here are my 2 systems: The first one (433 Halfback) spreads the ball around with a Playmaker and attacks the opponent on the flanks. The second one (433 Regista) makes use of a creative passer from deep to funnels the buildup inside to the Regista.
433 Halfback: A HB to protect the 2 CB, while both FB run up and down the flanks to provide natural overlaps on the wings (thus no additional overlap TI). Thiago as the focal point in MF in as the sole playmaker and a BBM next to him to provide runs from the center. Both wings on support duty as they should provide double-teams with the attacking Fullbacks. However, Gnabry is a bit more of a finisher (IF role) while Coman is more of a dribbler/creator, so I have him as a IW. Lewandowski can basically morph into any role you want him to play, but for a possession based style I thought a deeper role like DLF-a should do well. The idea is to attack teams down the flanks and use Thiago in a central role to spread the ball around.
Maybe I should add 'focus play down left/right flank' TI with the natural overlaps on the wings?
433 Regista: Same TI as above but different roles. Thiago is in a Regista role and should be THE focal point of our buildup play (think Xabi Alonso or Pirlo). He's basically our Quarterback. Both Fullbacks are in IWB roles to screen and protect the Regista. In front of the Regista are 2 runners from deep who should attack space between the lines. Müller has 20 'off the ball' and outstanding mentals in general, with 18 'stamina' and 19 'natural fitness', so he can run up and down the seams all game. With Müller in an attacking role to create overloads on the left with Coman, I've set Gnabry to an attacking duty on the right. Lewandowski remains in his DLF role.
Maybe I should add 'focus play through the middle' TI with the Regista and both IWB in central areas?
That was my way of thinking. So far the results have been fairly poor, so I need your help to improve both tactical setups. At the moment I'm struggling even against teams like Köln or Paderborn (1-1 in both games, with around 42 percent possession). What am I doing wrong? What do I have to change to make it work?
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vor 52 Minuten schrieb Experienced Defender:
Now, there is a style which I call progressive possession football (as opposed to classic patient possession styles of tiki-taka and similar boring stuff). That's actually the style of football I would recommend for top teams (including your Bayern). It combines possession-based football with more penetrative attacking styles.
That sounds exactly what I'm looking for and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Feel free to teach me/us - whether in this thread or in an own related topic...
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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Experienced Defender:
But if you insist on playing possession-heavy football, why on earth have you opted to use wingers (role) on both flanks and extreme width ??? I mean, none of these is possession-friendly.
vor 1 Stunde schrieb Experienced Defender:Okay, but who actually attacks that space in your system? You don't have any direct deep runner. BBM can occasionally try to exploit that space, but I fear not to a sufficient degree. The winger on attack will look to attack the far post area at times, but his primary responsibility is to provide width and deliver crosses, rather than act as a direct central runner. In my Newcastle save, a good number of goals are coming from a winger, but my tactic is very different from yours (and I don't play possession football, even though I do have pretty good possession numbers in general).
Ok, switched wingers to IW-s (AML) and IF-a (AMR) and changed width back to normal.
In addition I changed LOE from normal to higher to help with possession numbers.
vor 1 Stunde schrieb Experienced Defender:Avoiding 2 PMs next to each other absolutely makes sense, and I personally never play that way. However, if you want to emulate City's midfield duo de Bruyne - Silva, then I believe it's actually a mezzala (Silva) and RPM (de Bruyne).
Switched to your suggested Mezzala/RPM duo. Mezzala at support duty for the moment but might switch to attack if I don't get enough runs up front.
vor 1 Stunde schrieb Experienced Defender:On top of that, even if you manage to achieve the possession stats you are aiming for, what's the point of having possession purely for the sake of 'possession?
I do understand that tactics should be measured by goals scored against goals conceded first and foremost and chances created against chances conceded to a lesser extend. My obsession with possession numbers is just a personal pet-peeve because I like dominant possession football since Louis van Gaal brought that kind of football to Bayern ten years ago (which was followed up by Heynckes and Guardiola). I simply like it and so I try to make it work on FM20. But I do realise I might be a bit 'nerdy' about it ;-)
Don't get me wrong - I don't want pure possession. I want a tactic (preferably a 4123, but a 4231 would also be ok) that combines possession football with a lot of created chances and solid defense. I'm not sure if that's possible, but that's exactly why I'm asking for help.
With the tweaks mentioned above I beat Leverkusen 2-0 at home after two late goals. 15-8 shots, 4-2 CCC but only 50/50 possession.
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@Experienced Defender You've helped me achieving my goal of being able to defeat those 532 formations. Even better, you've shown me a way to make my tactics more efficient through better (more balanced) defense. If I could ask for one more favour - let's try to turn this 4123 base into a possession-heavy tactics. Basically I'm looking for Guardiola-style football in a tactic that works on FM20. I can't seem to get possession numbers in the 60+ percent region.
So let's kind of evolve this topic to 'I need help to make a possession-style 4123 work' ;-)
Here's my first take:
Reasoning behind it:
Team Instructions:
Playing with Bayern I am heavy favourits in most matches, thus Positive mentality. Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense and Work Ball Into Box were chosen to increase possession and create a slow buildup. Extremely wide width was chosen to stretch defenses as far as possible and create space inside or in the half-spaces. GK Distribution to CB or FB was chosen to stop GK hoofing it and build-up from the back. I added Counter-Press to instruct my players to try to get the ball back quickly if it's lost (kind of like Guardiola's 6-second-rule). Higher DL and Offside Trap should go hand in hand, especially with pacey defenders like Hernandez & Süle (both have 17 pace).
Also set up a split press with more pressing by my front 5.
I purposely left out Be More Expressive to use it more on a situational basis whenever I struggle to break down a defense. In a pure Guardiola-style tactic it should probably be added.
Roles:
SK-s: High DL with offside trap on positive mentality needs a keeper who is aggressive sweeping out of his box. Neuer is the perfect fit for the role. Might even go with SK-a as long as I have Neuer.
CD-d: Both centre-backs in a normal role. I don't want BPD to avoid the long balls. Just move the ball to midfield (or the IWBs) and defend...
IWB-s: Both wing-back in an inverted role to create Pep's famous W-shape in the back-5. The IWBs are basically wider defensive midfielders.
DM-s: Still undecided on this role, so I left it as a pretty generic role. Also thought about using a Halfback against good teams or against teams with 2 true strikers. Also thought about a Regista against lesser teams.
AP-s: The David Silva role; playmaker with forward runs and a creative passing outlet.
BBM-s: The Kevin de Bruyne role; a bit deeper than the AP and also takes on more defensive duties. Thought about RPM-s but I wanted to avoid 2 playmakers next to each other. Does that make sense?
W-s & W-a: Stretch the defense as wide as possible, basically touchline players with the license to find space. Midfield setup could create overloads on left, so AMR is set to attack duty to finish off.
F9-s: Drop deep and drag defenders out of position to create space for the wingers and midfielders to attack.
With all that laid out - it doesn't work. 42 percent possession at home against a decent but still clearly inferior Leverkusen side has nothing to do with possession-oriented football. What am I doing wrong?
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vor 16 Stunden schrieb fmjeros:
anyone tried to emulate pep in FM20 ?
Yes, I've tried but failed miserably...
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Ok, so results basically show how effective a tactic is when simulating ('holidaying') games. How much does that correlate with actually playing the games?
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Not exactly an expert opinion but I do have a question about your testing. How do you play out the games? Do you actually play all the games, do you use 'Instant Result' or do go on holliday?
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I've had the same exact problem and discussed it in this thread:
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Thanks, I had my striker set to press more anyway. Now also added the BBM and both wingers (IF/IW), let's see if it improves performance and/or possession...
vor 34 Minuten schrieb Experienced Defender:You may need a couple more tweaks to roles/duties to get more penetration, but for now keep this setup (as long as it works).
If in need of a goal I usually change the AMR (usually Gnabry) from IF-s to IF-a. And I also change the role of the DMC based on opponent formation and in-game situation. Usually start him as either DM-s or DM-d (for tough away games), sometimes change him to HB-d if my opponent plays 2 true strikers. He's basically my "wildcard role" - the one role I change from game to game.
One position I'm currently not overly happy with is the striker role. I have him set as CF-a because it suits Lewandowski's skill set. But whenever Lewa is not on the field (injured or rested) his replacement seems to struggle (as they're not really 'complete' forwards). My backups are Müller and youngster Arp. I've even experimented with Coutinho as a F9-s but it didn't work at all.
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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Experienced Defender:
And you can also try a split block as an additional pressing tool (either together with the higher LOE or alone).
LOE higher or standard doesn't make too much of a difference in terms of possession, maybe 2-3 percent.
Could you explain what you mean with 'split block'?
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Ok, back testing yesterday's tweaks after getting help from @Experienced Defender.
This is how my tactic looks now (after the tweaks):
And this is what happened in my very first game after the tweaks:
Won 6-0 at Augsburg, even with resting some of my regular starters. Stats show we were the better team but not completely dominant (22-15 shot, 7-4 CCC), so the result was probably higher than the stats would suggest. Possession was up from 40 to 49 percent but I'd still prefer higher possession. In a perfect world we could build a tactic from my 4123 base which gives me good results, realistic play and 60+ percent possession on average.
Now it's time to find out if the result was due to the tweaks really working well or just a lucky one-off performance...
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Difference between Regista and Roaming Playmaker?
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Could someone explain where the differences between the Regista and the Roaming Playmaker roles from the DMC position are? I do understand that both roles are supposed to be your main creator from deep and both are supposed to be free-roaming around the pitch to find space to influence play (which is the difference between these 2 roles and a DLP, who is more static in the deep centre of midfield).
REG and RPM seem very similar to me. Where are the differences between these 2 roles?