akkm
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Posts posted by akkm
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6 hours ago, Dadecane said:
Gengen press is the most dominant tactic in world football IRL today. The game properly reflects that. My only (minor) issue would be that it should not work as well with just any talent, or small clubs. But still one could argue its still the tactic most teams are finding success with IRL, big league or little league.
Give examples of the teams using this most dominant tactic please
Do u mean the tactic most used or the tactic that is dominating over others because we know with 100% certainty not the most dominant one success wise as evidenced by man city last year
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that's just a brilliant goal by neymar. That game was like peak Serie A...quality play...tight spaces and good defending overall yet a moment of brilliant is required to break down a defence...what a goal
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5 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:
Not sure Mount offers much to this team.
yep...very little is the answer
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9 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:With the full version of FM23 now available, we thought it might be helpful if we gave you a quick update on our short-term plans for the match engine.
While the current match engine is the same one that featured in the Early Access Beta, this doesn't mean that we’re not working on improvements. In fact, we're currently in the process of taking on board the feedback we received from Beta players and looking to incorporate this a forthcoming major update. We have however, included some animation tweaks with the aim of improving immersion, which as an example, means you'll be less likely to see keepers making odd looking saves with their feet.
Making changes to the match engine is a delicate and complex business. Changes that we make often result in unforeseen knock-ons that we need to chase down and fix... and those fixes then often have their own knock-on effects as well. In a recent internal update we had an engine that ‘felt’ really good and played really nicely… except that central defenders were racking up 200+ passes in some matches, which is unrealistically high. As soon as we discovered that we had to 'go back in' to address that issue without, of course, losing the parts we liked.
Although we're happy with the engine in the current game, we’re confident that we can improve on it with the right update, but we need a bit more time to make sure we balance things out. Thanks for all of your feedback so far, it’s been and continues to be incredibly useful.
The Match Team
Boom...hi Jack,
Even though lots will have wanted an update on launch I really feel that's the type of communication which people have been asking for so thanks for being transparent and giving us an insight into what's been going on behind the scenes...that's helpful. It makes sense what you say re getting things right before releasing an update
Well done
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6 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:
Thanks. If you actually want to follow my 'progress', I've prepared a thread here:
very cool. I'm liking the look of that already. I'll keep a check on how you get on throughout FM23...great approach to FM there
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8 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:
That's why lower league management is so appealing to me. I never get upset with the Match Engine, rather my talentless stupid numpties who can't pass or hit a barn door.
Actually funnily I want to manage lower league teams but the purpose is to be an actual manager...u know...to be able to influence what they do on the pitch...coaching them to move better positionally around the pitch to receive the ball to break a press/pressure from opposition and have my players move into pockets of small space inside to work the ball up the pitch slowly to get into good positions higher up the pitch to create higher value chances and create openings.
At least I want them to try it...if they try and fail all that is on my management and coaching...which is how it should be.
I can try and address it with more time on the training pitch to work it out.
I can try and address it by getting better technical players with good mental attributes
I can try and address it with adjusting my tactics then if all that fails but tactically that's all on me as the football manager.
I shouldn't have to be subjected to old school views that non league football = hoofball/messy play. I watch plenty of non league football and many teams try more and more to play it out from the back and pass it around patiently and have done well this way.
Even say Salford in league 2 changed manager this year and passing completion rate has gone up from 68% the previous 2 seasons to 80%+ this season. So coaching on the training ground and philosophy has changed a lot in terms of how they play and how well they control matches.
This is what a manager can do at any level. The main issues with players a lower level would show up as they play teams from much higher levels but playing at same levels good play can and should unfold given the right philosophy and good coaching.
So currently in FM there are issues with balance too much favouring chaos/battling midfields and the quality possession game isn't being well simulated.
After all this game is football manager and a manager needs to be able to have his way of playing manifest itself on the pitch. Its success will depend mostly on the quality of the players at his disposal but quality possession football over the years has usually shown itself to be consistently the most successful...sure there will always be defensive teams/high work rate teams/pressing teams that will do well and win but the common theme throughout is good possession teams playing cohesively and creatively consistently do well. Of course they will have to marry that with good work rate and effort (especially in modern football which FM is trying to replicate and its clearly not a finger click) but that's the basic of football...pass and move is key to consistently doing well. Klopp/liverpool woes this year and before show its pep views of football that will win the war...just as it did over jose mourinhos view of football...and just as it will in 100 years time as well.
FYI...I don't necessarily mean extreme tiki taka possession football either there re pep.
FM has to get this right first and foremost and then blend in the chaos factor on top...but key piece is good possession football. From that base everything can be built into it. Fingers crossed we get that on release this year.
FYI @phnompenhandyur post re you managing loch ness and your research and prep was awesome dude
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21 minutes ago, TheArsenal63 said:
Long balls from players with 0 pressure on them (using exactly the same possesion formation as last year) is just not fun to watch.
Long shots too, to a lesser extent.
ME feels like a basketball game and there is very short passing chains before the ball is inevitably launched into the stratosphere.
Also CBs have gone back to not being able to defend balls over the top no matter what you do, couple that with your keeper staying on his line and you have a recipe for a frustrating ME.
In their quest for chaotic football, that's the only flavour they've given us. This game in general has a weird attitude towards positional and possesion football. The game has struggled for many years to replicate the sort of tactical battle for positional superiority that exists in reall football today. Creating overloads through slower build up all the way to the box. It just doesn't replicate that that well.
excellent post
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16 minutes ago, 2feet said:
The fact is that it's a fundamental law in football that it's just much easier for a player to defend than it is for them to dribble.
The major leagues are packed with teams who defend brilliantly like it's their religion.
It's so difficult to dribble and go past players.
If you actually manage to, then within one second there is another defender almost upon you, and you then have to try and do it all over again.
Every defender is so fit and drilled and focussed, that the days of long-haired flair players dribbling past multiple players and leaving them trailing in the dirt are long gone.
yip...shorter haircuts these days alright
huh
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6 minutes ago, (sic) said:
The space isn't actually 3D, but 2D. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that players operated as 2D discs on a plane, rather than being 3D entities in the real 3D world. So that could be an issue in itself.
We can definitely observe these things, and report them. But other than that, we don't know why something works like that, and whether its intentional or not. That's something only SI know.
I think there are many underlying issues here, and there are many reasons why something can't be done right now in this current ME.Agree with you re underlying issues affecting things there
Not sure on 2d/3d...thought everything had changed to 3d but not sure on that one at all
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1 hour ago, (sic) said:I'll have to heavily disagree with this.
Players not willing to take on players and not willing to dribble and cut inside on their stronger foot, definitely isn't a tactical issue but the ME one. They did this absolutely fine, a few years ago. Why it's the case now, we can only speculate. My thoughts are that it's intentional, because the defenders simply wouldn't know how to deal with that, for whatever reason.
Players are afraid of the opposition players. They're afraid to go near them, and they're especially afraid to dribble past them in tighter spaces, most notably in the final third.
What they often do, is run with the ball, while making sure to avoid coming close to any opposition players. They aren't dribbling, they're just running and kicking the ball. What this results in, is players just running wide, as that's the only area that they deem has enough free space for them to run into. Or alternatively, they will cut inside, but only when they're completely isolated, and when there isn't an opposition player in sight. Basically, when they don't have to dribble past anyone.
For me that often happens around the middle third, but almost never in the final third. The issue in the final third, is that there's often more defenders in the way, so the player is simply unwilling to go inside with the ball, instead choosing to run wide, and then pass it or cross it.The core issue simply isn't a tactical one.
Actually this is spot on...there's a general issue where players struggle to operate in tight spaces/lack of space/in traffic/when confronted by players close by. Of course in real world football its tricky but not as tricky as in FM and the simulation isn't properly capturing players ability to operate in tighter spaces and in close proximity of players for dribbling/passing/receiving the ball and even for players to select a pass to a player with player/s on him.
Players are very reluctant to dribble into traffic or as you say once closer to people as then it's a turn & pass outside/lay off or generally not try and take on players especially inside and need too much space identified to run into or they won't bother.
Its similar as I alluded to in tight areas for players to pass into and its especially noticeable sometimes in central areas where this year we see that DMs usage can provide serious blockage to that area so play won't even be attempted there so players will choose to go long or wide too deep and too early in FM to avoid traffic and larger spaces are identified as a higher value/easier pass therefore pass decision making will select this rather than operate TIs/PIs to play through the middle at least as a style...yes it is and should be harder but if players will avoid this the way they do in FM then this a core issue to the engine not allowing it to at least be attempted as a style. It often then gives a sense of a user's team playing on the pitch be disconnected to its tactical inputs.
If my team attempts it and keeps failing I should address that tactically or with personnel...ie signing more creative/technical players who can operate in the tight spaces and move around and find small pockets of space and thread short passes along the ground to create chances and openings directly or in passages of play.
At times it seems idenfication of space in FMs 3D modelling doesn't reflect real world abilities to operate in said tight spaces and too much space is what FM needs to identify as a trigger to pass/move/dribble into. FM may need to re tune this decision making to identify smaller spaces and close proximity of others as being ok/good decision making and not a deterrent to passing/moving/dribbling where currently it can deter all of that too much.
Adding in the welcome introduction this year of the chaos factor/battling in midfield and pressing factors this means ability for players to operate in tighter spaces should be at a very high level but the dearth of space in the middle has meant play gets directed too wide or too long too quickly and that possession game that requires rich movement and quality pass decision making isn't currently operating as well as it should. I've seen it in previous versions of FM where higher pressing and congestion on central areas knocks out the ability to play through there too much.
A 're calibration' of how 3D space is calculated may be required to allow better play to unfold ie reduce larger identification of space required to operate in...not really sure but this would obviously help to identify how players identify and make good decisions then whether to pass/move/dribble.
Obv not entirely sure but SI will know more. I've seen SI enable better central play/dribbling before in tricky circumstances so all going well they will be able to do this again for FM23...ideally on release as well. It won't be easy but I'm sure providing as many examples of all of this will help them
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13 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:
Hard to agree with the bolded, i've seen a ton of central play including a lot of central through balls. There's a ton of this visible on various youtubers footage up so far as well.
Also I've seen more goals from rounding the keeper in 10 matches this years that 1000+ hours in the last couple.
Could you post some pkms of games with a ton of central play and a lot of central through balls along the ground if you have them...tks dude
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hmmm...googled it so sorted...tks anyway
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Just loaded up the pre game editor and the name search for players isn't returning any players to visually see there. It's been fine up to that. Any help would be appreciated
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On 12/04/2022 at 01:20, herne79 said:
Ad hominems on the other hand are far more straight forward. These are “arguments” which attack the person not their position. By trotting out “it’s political correctness”; “it’s tokenism”; “it’s getting in early to score some brownie points and take credit” you attack SI, not what they are doing. Such comments are generated solely by your own cynical assumptions and always say more about the person making those cynical comments than it ever will about the person (or in this case company) at which they are aimed.
Actually you are making cynical assumptions about the intent of the poster there yourself...citing politicial correctness/tokenism isn't ad hominem attack at all...of course it could be or just actually pointing out the perceived actions of tokenism/political correctness or it could be both but pointing out the action of tokenism or political correctness (for the record I'm not saying that what SI is doing) isn't an ad hominem attack necessarily but you by inferring the intent of the poster are construing it as such.
One could even make an argument that you by accusing them of ad hominem attacks are attempting to undermine the position of those posters by actually accusing them of certain things or having a go at their personal intentions rather than the points they are attempting to make.
So you could actually be cynically trying to undermine them in this thread by pointing out intentions of an individual rather (especially given the other audience youre posturing towards) than the substance of their points which again is a little ironic given your own post ad hominem attacks above huh...are u attacking the people there to make your point
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hey tks for the quick reply...appreciate that
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obv this could have been asked before but how would one get rid of the long name formatting of team names within the game with this database
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38 minutes ago, WHUkain21 said:
It's just how football evolved. The era of tiki taka and short passes is gone. Just look at football teams now and you will notice how much they relay on crosses. Also in previous fm editions crossing was so weak i think finally we have the reflection of real football.
previous versions of FM were heavily reliant on crossing for goals...well outside real world numbers lol
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12 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:
The only post that literally resonates with my thoughts since the dreaded days of FM19 and FM20. FM21 was very well balanced and a joy to watch / play. This year however seems like SI have improved the match engine in many aspects, but it seems to come at a higher cost than I'm willing to pay, so to speak. I am happy with the ebb and flow of the game, animations and pretty much everything else, but I cannot but notice that I am playing FM20 all over again, just in a much more fluid way. Great post btw, as articulate as it can possibly be.
Yeah agree completely...the improvements came at the detriment of good creative football so that wouldn't be for me to endure a return to the dull and stale version fm19/20 offered up. All going well things can be addressed for this year
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53 minutes ago, XaW said:
This is playing in the Vanarama North, so this is exactly what I expect to see. I don't have De Bruyne or Pedri, but I have Eli Phipps with 7 passing and 8 vision. So that pass looks perfectly good for the level I'm at.
So at a higher level, you could well make an argument for another choice, but for my part, this is a good example of what to expect from very good attacking movement (centrally -> wide) at this level.
Hi...great play there for sure but at any level of football a player can have the vision to play those players in even in that split second. The issue would arise playing further up the ladder where other factors would prevent lower ability players from being able to do it...mostly technique and ability to use technique and vision under more pressure and playing in games where time on the ball is much reduced then
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Hey...no one is saying central playing isn't existing on this years engine and @SebastianRO post above gives a well balanced view of the current state of the unbalanced engine. It is heavily reliant on wide areas for creativity...overly reliant in reality.
Of course teams block central areas as in real world football but pass decision making in FM isn't up to real world standards and centrally it requires very apparent or large spaces where real world football players and teams CAN and DO operate centrally in tight spaces to thread short along the ground passes into players to try and probe for openings. In FM its much much harder and unrealistically the case to try and pass and probe through middle.
Also notice players aren't actually making themselves available positionally in pockets of space inside and in between the lines much and moving dynamically to react to defensive structures to either make themselves available for either a passing option or to drag opposition out of position.
So at the moment this year spaces are out wide and as team move the ball better out wide and crossing isn't blocked as much as last year creativity for chances and goals is heavily skewed towards the wings and its much more akin to FM19/20 than last year.
Thats not to say there isn't some great play and good build up currently in the engine. Agree as @kiwityke1983 mentioned the ebb and flow of a game has been captured like never before however in terms of creativity in FM its heavily skewed the toward the wings so its essentially the opposite to how the real world works. In real world football teams essentially teams will attack the centre or want to...there's a reason team block the centre of the pitch first and foremost...by blocking there teams will clearly move the ball out wide inside and back and forth buts it's with a view to dragging opposition defensive set up/players out of position to slot them in back inside...of course they'll cross and score that way but in FM teams are too happy to get it wide and cross it from...lazily so in that they take rudimentary option to cross instead of coming back inside to keep probing there...its unrealistic and currently not simulating real world footballing behaviour and decision making.
Players in FM need to have a bump up to their creativity vision and propensity to play threaded passes inside along the ground and through balls along the ground inside and movement needs ehancing as well to give them options. Space inside is too restrictive to passing and moving there...of course it should be hard but in FM its unrealistically hard and it's currently not reflecting how teams and players get around that as they do in the real world in central areas and in the attacking third
If anyone is not seeing that all one has to do is check out the analysis tab in FM to see where key passes are played from and do the same on whoscored website and they'll see FM is HEAVILY skewed towards key passes from out wide which is the OPPOSITE to real world football. Its GLARING the difference between FM and real world and proves current engine is lacking quite a lot.
Should this be addressed then that combined with much improved ebb and flow, better animations, improved wide play then the engine will be a magnificent simulation of football and the best yet...without it then the most basic fundamentals of pass and moving will be missing and it will be far too rudimentary and interpretation of football is played...ie crossing trumps all...which just isn't either good or even realistic football14 -
8 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:
A lot of mine are balls down the channel from my fullbacks. Certainly weren't long balls from the keeper.
Thats interesting in itself and actually showing its not central play but emanating form the wings which isn't good play either to be fair
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25 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:
Its in the data hub. I was surprised to find that the majority of my goals came from through balls. I'd have said crosses would have been the majority but nope it was a very nice spread.
But the thing is the way FM categorises through balls is loose enough plus a ball from a keeper over the top is likely classed as a through ball so in FM that assist breakdown isn't necessarily indicative of quality play at all
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27 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:
That depends entirely on your roles and team instructions - I'm getting plenty of central play with my 4-3-3 DM Wide using Play Through the Middle, and long through balls to the striker or inside forwards too.
Yeah but that's not quality play...just long balls through the air which in itself is indicative of issues in that the ball isn't getting moved up the pitch centrally into the top third to pass and probe from there for threaded passes. Was it a build in fm19 that resorted to long through balls to make up for lack of centrally play but it's a bit of a cop out really and lacking sophisticated build up play then
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Hey just fyi don't mean ur personal psyche @enigmatic more that England's style is more geared towards not losing after the many years of underachievement perceived or otherwise england are almost ok with not winning kind of thing
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huh
Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
as a complement to their main style. All styles should complement their basic methods with hard work and elements of pressing. I'm not saying you're suggesting man city style is gegenpressing because it's 100% clearly not that at all
There should be more of a distinction between gegenpressing and pressing/hard work. For sure elements of it are more organised these days but there's always been pressing/hard work/closing down by teams...including possession teams who press/press high to win the ball back...but that doesn't mean it's their predominant style. Teams press high/mid/low as well sometimes with working hard/closing down. It's always been a feature of football and it always will be. Didn't Ian Rush press from the front in those Liverpool teams/saachi's Milan...heck even Jack Charlton's Ireland lol .
With klopp over the years his predominant style has been gegenpressing...you can see how in interviews how often he emphasises how good liverpool's counter press is...as that's what he wants...his comment "No playmaker in the world can be as good as a good counter-pressing situation" sums his view up but of course guardiola's body of work has proved otherwise and that klopp is incorrect in that assertion.
as @whatsupdochas pointed out gegenpressing is absolutely not the most successful tactic these days. Sure, teams utilise pressing but it's usually complementing their overall style.
One of the reasons why gegenpressing works so well in FM is pass decision making still isn't simulated as well as it could be and therefore elements of intelligent pass choice and creativity to unpick passing traps just aren't there. That's also one of the main reasons why Guardiola tactics within FM just don't do what they do in the real world. Teams just cannot pass & move and operate in tight spaces in FM as well as their skilled counterparts in the real world can. It's the area that requires most work in the match engine as only at that point where pass decision making is simulated as well as it can be then defensive elements can actually be simulated as well as they need to be to counter this.
Until then we will continue to see the difficulty in balancing the engine as efforts to implement pressing/very solid defensive methods will just shut down good play too easily as it wasn't simulated well enough in the first place