Irn Rvd
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Posts posted by Irn Rvd
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On 23/01/2024 at 03:47, luisfernando said:
Well, I took the tactic from my friend who is doing the saga on YouTube as Venezia (I'm even waiting for the sequel) and I'm using it here in Valencia. Insane results, I can't even believe this is possible. In big games I'm dropping the defensive block to normal and changing the experimental functions to support, it's given me a lot of defensive sustainability without losing the idea of De Zerbi itself.
Stats
More sats:
Results look good for this one but I just don’t see from the match highlights that it’s anything like a de zerbi tactic. Almost no short passes between the centre backs and cdms, and very direct all the time.
It’s a very tough recreation for sure.1 -
Cheers everyone!! These all look interesting. Not what I was expecting, and I was failing miserably, so that’s a good sign.
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18 minutes ago, 1twoQ said:
Brighton is truly awful this year. Like I originally said in almost every save RDZ is fired around Christmas with the team around the relegation zone so it's been hard to get something to work with them.
So far I'm still testing but have a few more conventional looking 4231's I've been trying. I've managed to get a 5th and 6th place finish a few times but feel like they were outliers in being good defensively.
I've had to sacrifice a bit of my philosophy to get something that works, namely I've found it very hard to finish near the top 3 in possession without completely neutering the attack. With anything that works I've been finishing around 55 percent possession. I'll post some updates tonight with what I've been trying with brighton to hopefully get a discussion up and running again.
I’m glad it’s not just me. Look forward to it.
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On 27/10/2023 at 14:55, HanziZoloman said:
I find it not that hard to create that passing box with good transitions into final third.
I play it from the back but without BPD instead give instructions to pass it short and take less risks (PI) to keep the ball deep and invite pressure. The transition gets along the DM(S) or DLP(S) or VOL(S) who is supported by DM(D) or (S) depending on the other role. Up front it’s like WB(S) to support wide from build up into final third and the attacking four very simple. I‘d like my striker AF to come deep or play with back to goal but it works fine without that. We see a lot of the ball have a slow build up and a lot of space to attack.
Possession numbers good?
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On 27/10/2023 at 08:57, Brian said:
Looks like when trying to create the Arsenal midfield box, I accidentally made the Brighton pass map.
Brighton pass map as provided by @1twoQ
Arsenal passmap vs Hull City (4-0 win, second season) (FM22 season 26/27)
What does your tactic look like my friend?
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On 27/10/2023 at 08:11, 1twoQ said:
Made a couple small changes, really liking this version a lot more.
I read through @04texag thread on positional play, lots of good stuff in there and I stole the idea of removing play out of defense and lowering the tempo a lot to get a similar controlled build up from the back and I gotta say the building from the back and transitioning to the mid third looks a lot better with this set of instructions. Overall I'm a lot happier with this version of the tactic.
Tactic used:
In the screen shot it's shown as a cautious mentality, but really anything between cautious and attacking works, allowing for a lot more flexibility in games.
Random Match results (at Luton):
Pass Map from that same game:
I'm really happy with the general double box midfield you get from this tactic (2 CD's making a box with the 2 midfielders, and the 2 midfielders making a box with the striker and AM)
They're not quite perfectly straight boxes like the pass map from Brighton's game against Wolves early in the season seen here:
But they're close enough for my liking considering all the rotating players are doing in my version of the tactic.
Double midfield boxes from the same Luton Game
Pass map and avg position with ball just to emphasize just how more fluidity and rotations there are when we're in possession. It's lovely to watch.
(if I was really smart/paying more attention I would have changed the AP from support to attack duty to try and really exploit the gap created by both the striker and AM being pulled so wide and deep to get onto the ball)
The full backs play some great stuff too:
Generally when the ball is on the left side the IFD will push up a tad higher rather than trying to stay in line with the 2 CD's (he is particularly willing to do this with the overlap left instruction on. with an attacking team mentality and that instruction you can get him all the way up to a balanced mentality), and when the AP pushes up the IFD will tuck in a bit more narrow to provide some cover in that area of the pitch (only when the ball is on his side of the pitch) When the ball is on the right side of the pitch the ride sided CD will push up a bit higher and wider to be an option to recycle the possession through and the IFD will slide back into a CD role to maintain the overall shape and provide defensive cover. If you're losing possession more often than you'd like, especially in the middle 3rd of the pitch i'd either change the right sided centerback to a CD or add the Hold Position PI to the right sided centerback to limit how often he's pushing higher and wider and limit gaps forming in your back line while all the parts are moving around.
The FB (S) was chosen over the CWB (s) as he generally looks to get the ball into the midfield a bit more often really helping us use the numerical superiority the double boxes provide in midfield. He will push up a lot more often than the IFD does obviously, and will generally hold the width in the initial build up but will look to stay a tad narrower as we're moving the ball into the middle 3rd of the pitch (stay narrow PI). When the IF ahead of him cuts inside, he'll go back outside to hold the width and will occasionally overlap the IF to keep the opposition back line stretched. Replicating Brighton's fullbacks exactly probably can't be done within the simplicity of the match engine (simple compared to real life anyway where specific triggers to cut inside/outside stay/go can be given) but this is as good as I've been able to get it so far and I'm happy with how they're playing.
As for the front 4 it's still a bit of a work in progress. The wide players aren't getting enough shots to be true to life Brighton, but playing with Haaland is probably influencing that aspect a bit. More testing is required. The Mitoma role is especially troublesome for me this year. Trequartista worked great last year, but seems to drop deep much more frequently this year so he's not leading the line as much as I'd like, but the IF in this setup is getting a lot less shots per game then the Treq on the other side is. Ideally the stats they're putting up for me would be swapped the AML Treq (March's role) is getting a lot more shots and the AMR IF (Mitoma's role) is getting a lot more key passes and assists. IRL it's the opposite, but Mitoma is typically the furthest forward player for Brighton and I've only been able to get that our of the IF this year.
I am really liking how fluid the front 4 are though, occasionally you'll see the striker getting a lot of space out wide and in response the treq really pushes in narrow and they basically swap positions (you can see just how wide Haaland was pulled in that Luton pass map above and that the Treq is much narrower than usual), occasionally the striker and AMC will swap who's leading the line and who's dropping back, sometimes they'll both drop, sometimes they both push on, sometimes only the striker will drop and they'll be in line with each other etc. I'd love to get the AMC/AMR/striker swapping occasionally as well but i think playing the striker offset to the left is preventing that from happening often if at all. If he's not offset to the left though the double box build up shape is completely broken and to me thats more important to replicate De Zerbi than the fluidity/rotations from half the pitch in the final third.
As I mentioned above the philosophy, shape and general playstyle stay the same through the mentality ladder:
Cautious and balanced are probably overall my preferred mentalities. Most of the squad seem to hold the shape I'm looking for better on those two mentalities, but I do like how much more willing the IFD is to push up on the higher mentalities.
Still needs testing with sides not as strong as City but I'm very happy with how it's playing so far.
Give this one a go and let me know what you guys think.
How did you get on with this? Final product?
I’ve been testing with Brighton and struggling a little bit. I have tried many different variations but the main things I try to recreate is the high possession numbers and beating the press with play through the middle four.
Reslly struggling. About to give up lol.
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On 02/09/2023 at 17:47, Lordluap said:
Here is the tactic i use.
Heavy on PI's and Traits.
Tested this out and it’s a cracker. Tons of flowing beautiful football. I’m seeing player animations I’ve never seen before.
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1 hour ago, Lordluap said:
Ha, not a guru. Played the game a lot and understand the roles, movements etc and how they interact. Lot's of thought and trial and error as well.
Keeping to the De Zerbi thread... (with a bit of Pep included), try this: Starts as 4-3-3 but will form the 2-4-4 / 2-4-1-3 / 2-4-2-2 of Brighton. Train or look for DLF/S and DLP/D to have "Comes Deep to Get Ball" trait. Add "Stay Wider" PI to the IF/A's and "Sit Narrower" to the WB/S'. Ask anyone you can to "Cross Less".
My possession and passes completed stats are leading the league.
Lovely. And both cbs on cover? Why dlf instead of false 9?
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5 hours ago, Lordluap said:
I have worked on a base 4-3-3 that morphs to a 2-4-4... utilising a HB as a central DM and the a DLP/D and a CM/A, a pairs a WB/S and a pair of IF/A
Giving excellent possession stats. Will screengrab later.
Oof exciting.
You seem like a tactic guru. Don’t suppose you have a peps Barca tactic? 🤣I am shameless.
I tried to get the de zerbi recreation working for so long, then moved peps barca. The possession stats away from home are making me so sad as it just doesn’t make sense to me. I watch the game and I have the ball the whole time then I watch extended highlights and percentage of possession is 50/50 lol. I know it’s me and not the game but sometimes I blame the game to help me sleep at night.
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On 02/09/2023 at 20:01, Lordluap said:
One Regista has Get Further Forward turned off. Both CD the same.
Try to train the following traits:
Dwells on Ball, Stops Play and Stays Back at All Times traits for both CD.
Does not Move into channels, Plays One-Twos, Dicates Tempo. Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble, Stays Back At All Times and Comes Deep to Get Ball to one Regista.
Does not Move into channels, Plays One-Twos, Dicates Tempo. Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble, Tries Killer Balls Often and Arrives Late in Opposition Area to other Regista.
It's not infallible nor perfect, but I like it.
What’s the possession numbers like with this one? I really struggle for possession against 4231 away from home for some reason. This is with all tactics not this one specifically.
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On 23/08/2023 at 09:15, Lordluap said:
Been lurking on this topic. I've been working on this for 2 in-game seasons now. I think I've cracked it. I'm at work so cant post screenshots but will l later.
The key I've found to get the way the 2 x CB and 2 x DM pass IRL is to:
- Heavily - HEAVILY - increase Passing, Composure and Decisions attributes on the DM's, CB's and GK
- Add PPM's Dwells on Ball and Stops Play on CB's and GK
I then use a pair of Regista in the DM slots with extra PPM's trained in:
Plays 1-2's, Tries Killer Balls Often, Does NOT move into Channels.
and then 1 of them has Comes Deep to Get Ball and the other has Arrives Late in Opponents Area
As TI's I use: Positive, Play Through Middle, Play Out of Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Low Crossing, Counter Press, Counter, Slow Pace Down, Distribute to CB's, Distribute to Fullbacks, Short Kicks, Normal Defensive Line, Normal Line of Engagement, Trigger Press More.
I find by using Distribute to Fullbacks as well as to CB's, the FB''s stay a little deeper and narrower than normal, allowing greater passing opportunities in Build Up.
The above really does rely on improving the Passing, Composure and Decisions on the relevant players otherwise it will not work.I have lots of PI's and extra PPM's added as well - will add screenshots/details later.
The attack consists of: IW/a, T/a and IF/a behind a PF's - with the T/a and PF/s offset to the left and right respectively.
This is the closest I've got the the whole package working.
This looks very promising. Congrats!! Gotta be right up there with one of the hardest recreations with the current ME. look forward to seeing the rest.
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46 minutes ago, GCVS00 said:
Here is the pass map from my recreation of the Brighton tactic. Seems to match decently
Pass map and ppms look good. I was never able to to test it with tries to play way out of trouble which might be helpful for when the pivots are marked.
focus play through the middle is a must for me but makes the tactic work really badly (most of the time). The left and right backs are just ball recyclers up until the final third normally, and without focus play they end up being the main deep passers.0 -
1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:
Replicating Brighton 23/24 will be a bit of a nightmare. A strikerless 4-2-4 maybe? WB left, FB right?
I'm sure plenty be trying it though
It’s really difficult as you have to play low Tempo to bait the opposition with the bottom box and then somehow make the front four play like they are on a high tempo.
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6 hours ago, Miragepredator said:
my newer version, i have found it to replicate to a good level. traits needed across back 4/mid 2, are tries to play out from back, stops play,dwells on ball(CB's and if possible get it on GK,i used in-game editor only on GK to get these traits) , plays short simple passes and plays 1-2s. On the BtB i got comes deep, plays 1-2s, tries to play out from back and plays ball into feet. I switch between IF(A) and W(S) for the wingers. Ive felt the play down the middle has helped a lot in the play. Traits for wingers are, hugs line,beats opponent repeatedly, arrives late in box,wants ball to feet and likes to beat offside trap, you can also use the BtBs as SV's with same instructions
Interesting so you use ppms to make the inside forward more like wingers. Will take a look at this in game when I can.
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1 hour ago, 1twoQ said:
Okay, I kept up with it until the end of the season and then ran a sim of my original tactic.
Watching the games play out I prefer mine for playing teams in the top 6, the strikerless tactic linked above for teams in the bottom 6 and some combination of both for mid tier teams.
This makes sense, Brighton typically play a bit more direct against top teams as they don't need to lure them into pressing as most of those teams already want to press. and you'll obviously need to take more risks vs teams better than you, The strikerless tactic is definitely leading to way more control of games against bottom 6 opposition than my high tempo attacking tactic.
To validate my eye test I re-ran a season with each tactic and recorded the goals for, goals against and points per game home and away of my tactic vs the strikerless one:
As you can see my original one did much much better against the top sides, but much worse against bottom sides & mid table sides when facing them at their place.
I also want to point out that out of about 25 sims I've done with my tactic this is the worst it has ever performed defensively, but from watching the games I feel like even if I got a much more normal defensive season the general trend shown in the above charts would stay the same.
The high tempo, attacking nature of my tactic is obviously leading to much more open end to end football which I think RDZ would hate. Seems like using the more controlling version vs the bottom 6 and mid table sides away while using the more free playing attacking tactic at home vs mid table and against all top 6 sides would be more RDZ approved football.
Makes sense as the striker less one technically has four players that may make runs beyond the defence starting from deep which is helpful against defensive systems.
I think yours is much more fun and realistic.
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7 hours ago, Delial said:
I tested a lot of different settings in order to emulate what RDZ is making at Brighton, with the actual Brighton players. And, IMO, this is the point where we reach the limit of the ME. I manage to have a lot of possession but players aren't good enough to make it work. I had to be a bit more direct to win some games and not being relegated at the end of the first season!
I feel like it's a current ME problem. I often find it hard to play a high pressing build from the back style of play when you a bit of an underdog (Brighton is clearly not the worst team of PL but it's still far from the best ones too).I find it hard not to sacrifice one RDZ principles, or two, when facing BIG 6 teams. Am I the only one to feel like that?
Yeah I’m the same. Can get by and win most games against poorer opposition but it’s really hard against the super teams to play a low tempo system with short passing and win unfortunately. Might not be the same for everyone though as you many people use higher tempos.
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8 hours ago, 1twoQ said:
From my limited testing so far it seems to work really well IF you have better players than the current Brighton squad. With Brighton most of my matches are ending with a very drab boring game of us passing around the back not looking to progress the ball, being very limited offensively when we do end up progressing past the midfield. Most matches end with us having around 9 shots and somewhere between 48 - 52% possession.
At Brentford
At Chelsea
Vs Manchester United
Mitoma is completely non-existent is most of these matches. Ferguson to March is the only link up that's working well. By January Ferguson is leading my team in assists and March is leading in goals.
When you're playing against sides you're clearly better than though it can do some really impressive things.
Vs Forest
It's a great idea, but doesn't seem to over achieve with the team it's looking to emulate. Could be something to switch over to when you have better players in the future of your saves though, or something to use against weaker sides to control games more.
I'll keep playing with it to the end of the season though and see if any of my thoughts change.
I think it’s the same for me to be honest. Pressing is almost non existent against 3 centre backs too which makes it so easy for them to pass over the top, and three centre back systems tend to have to strikers. So that’s not ideal lol
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8 minutes ago, Mutumba said:
There is a tactic on FM-Base that is also a RDZ tactic. It has similarities with yours in terms of PPM. But he is using direct passes and lower risk on his cbs.
Might be good to check out:
https://fm-base.co.uk/resources/roberto-de-zerbi-unbelievably-majestic.8332/
@1twoQearly signs suggest this is very promising. Good possesion stats too which is tough with getting all the concepts right.
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1 hour ago, 1twoQ said:
2 answers:
1) I'm not good at watching the off ball stuff IRL so honestly I have no idea how they actually press. I was able to find this https://theathletic.com/4520415/2023/05/15/arsenal-brighton-tactics-breakdown/ saying they pressed in a 442 with the LCB man marking the free midfielder in Arsenals 433 shape.
I'd imagine you'd try to set this up by asking the striker to mark the LCB, the AMC to mark the RCB, the T to mark the RFB, and the IW to mark the LFB. Combine this with asking the 2 DM's to mark tighter and either putting your LCB to man mark the right side #8 or maybe just putting him on CB (Stopper) to get him to step up more. But this all leads me to point number 2...
2) I've long since given up getting a realistic pressing structure in FM and just kind of let them do what they want defensively. Whenever I start tweaking PI's and/or OI's to get what i think should be realistic it just makes the defense awful lol
Let me know if you find a good solution. I'm sure it's possible. I've seen The Cult of FM on youtube do some great defensive tweaking but I am not good at it.
You are totally right. I’m clutching a straws thinking this will suddenly work lol
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6 minutes ago, Mutumba said:
There is a tactic on FM-Base that is also a RDZ tactic. It has similarities with yours in terms of PPM. But he is using direct passes and lower risk on his cbs.
Might be good to check out:
https://fm-base.co.uk/resources/roberto-de-zerbi-unbelievably-majestic.8332/
Wow this looks very promising. It’s only gonna work if it’s an outside the box idea lol
cheers mate!
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10 hours ago, 1twoQ said:
Funnily enough that was the first setup I tried! I loved the link up between the front 4 playing with that setup.
It's probably a better RDZ replication, but maybe not a better Brighton under RDZ replication, at less for the previous season. Ferguson & Welbeck lead the frequent starters in shots per 90 and as a PF(S) they just weren't getting the amount of shots to replicate that how I wanted. I haven't tried it lately though, last I tried I was on a balanced mentality I'll have to give it a few games to see it.
I also really loved how PF(D) played both offensively and defensively, just not enough end product from the striker outside of trying a ball behind the defense for one of the other front 3.
Glad things are working for you.
Love how they are pretty much a winger and inside forward combined. They make runs in behind which I’ve hardly ever seen from an inside forward.
you are definitely right about the end product. Sometimes get 5 CCCs a game and others 28 shots off target lol.
what did you do about the AM sort of just being a tight marker instead of closing the opposition down? I’m asked him to man mark the cdm or other centre back to try and counteract this. I’ve tried to press like RDZ but it doesn’t seem to work at all. Think they press in a 4132 shape.
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@1twoQstroke of genius with the trequista. I’ve ended up with one both sides with slightly different pIs. Change striker to pf support and getting some lethal combos
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6 hours ago, 1twoQ said:
Yeah I've noticed the same. CF on support dropped way too deep and CF on attack tried too many risky passes or dribbles and both ended up on the flanks trying to ping in a cross to no one for too often for my liking. The only real success I was able to find is an AF. Absolutely has to have 'plays with back to goal' to get any sort of dropping deep, hold up play out of an AF though.
Without counter ticked you definitely get more RDZ type passing but I've found my squad unable to get nearly enough shots off to be a real Brighton recreation. I'll have to give it another try though, I don't think I've given it a real try after switching the tactic to an attacking mentality.
On the topic of mentality - I love the passing i get out of this tactic when it's on defensive or cautious but it makes the press far too passive.
See the image below from my recent game against Man City:
Yes you could argue that we got a tad lucky. They had more shots, a higher XG and a higher XG per shot, but a fairly large number of their shots came from pretty far outside the box. They scored a screamer sure, but what can you do? One of those goals you just kinda tip your hat & their other goal came from a corner. What I'm really happy about is the complete lack of involvement from Haaland. He finished the game on a 6.3. Yes he had a few decent chances, but nothing so crazy.
Glad to hear that you like how to plays! Keep us updated on how your tweaks and playthrough goes!
Fantastic. What a win. They always seem to score set pieces don’t they!?!?
I played Bayern in the champions league away and they won 1-0. Keeper howler. Tactic was very solid and we looked dangerous throughout. That was with the higher tempo.
your tactic plays some brilliant stuff I must say. It might just be impossible in the game, but with higher tempo they pass is around nicely but there is no baiting the opposition really. Lowering the tempo though seems to make it difficult to create chances. Going to fiddle around again when I have time.
Brainstorming ideas, I reckon with slower tempo and three playmakers (and play through the middle) it just makes it super slow and obvious. So you may be on to something with all three combined with higher tempo as I’m 100% sure you need play through the middle for it to be a de zerbi recreation.
those pass maps are brilliant btw.
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Roberto de Zerbi - Tactical Attempt and Discussion
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I’ve tried tirelessly and failed. Only pointers I could reccomend is try with a really good team first as it’s soul destroying attempting it with someone like Brighton in game.