Gambling ads in the game and "Targeted Advertising"

[MathiOi]

I'm unsure whether or not this is the right place for this discussion, but I've got some questions regarding the targeted advertising and how/why a gambling advertisement is being shown in the game.

I must preface this by saying I have both the "Targeted Advertising" and "Your Choice Regarding Our Marketing Campaigns" enabled as I feel it adds another level of realism to the game and that I don't mind the idea at all. However this instance brought me some questions in regard to the legality/ethics of the ad itself and what information the targeted advertisement used in order to show me this advertisement in the game.

As you can see in the screenshot, it's an online casino advertising their deposit bonus in Norwegian.

This might just be the result of some lazy filtering by whatever advertising agency SEGA/SI employs and that it sees I'm a norwegian male over 18 (which is information they gain through Steam and the game) and in return shows this gambling ad. But I still feel like this warrants some questioning.

I won't delve into the legality aspect of it too much, as I don't know which countries laws it would go under or how relevant it is. But in Norway, it's not allowed to advertise for any casinos other than the state regulated Norsk Tipping and its subsidiaries. As far as I'm aware, casino advertisement directed to norwegian customers isn't allowed either, but there are some loopholes and it is virtually impossible for them to recieve any repercussions, so I won't go into it any further.

However I do think it's worth to discuss the ethics of it. FM advertises itself as a PEGI 3 game and in order to have a Steam account you must atleast be 13. You also enter your date of birth when you first launch the game, in order to recieve age appropriate advertising, however anyone who was on the internet prior to turning 18 knows how well people adhere to such things. So even if SI are right in terms of the legal aspects, we all know that people under 18 will have gambling advertisements directed to them, just like I did. Not only children, but this could be triggering to gambling addicts. 

We are all aware of how big of a role gambling has in todays football, every top team has a gambling shirt sponsor and gambling sponsors in their stadiums. I think most people can agree that it is financially benefitial to the teams, but it's a part of football most people would prefer to have removed. Much like how COVID was never implemented into the game, as the game was supposed to act as a break from real life football, I also think gambling sponsors (albeit a less detrimental) should be removed from the game for the same reason.

The potentially worst part of this whole ordeal and how the "Targeted Advertising" actually works and how it shows me gambling advertisements in the game. It might very well be that it was just by chance, but as a man who likes to gamble and has used the site in question before I found it puzzling (I also get the same exact add in my browser). According to the game, I "share my user data and behaviour information from your game with third parties to display targeted advertising". I presume the user data in question is the date of birth you enter when you first launch the game, but I'm curious as to what exactly the "behaviour information" is and what is gathered from where, especially considering this is the same ad I see in my day-to-day browsing. This might have to do with Norway being a small advertising market and that only a few select ads are shown, so I'm curious if people from bigger advertising markets have seen similair gambling ads in the game.

 

Sorry for a long post, but I felt like this is something that should be answered, even if it's just an error from the advertising agency or a decision from SI. Any thoughts or input would be greatly appreiciated.

 

[NineCloudNine]

Those ads can be bought by companies (or more specifically their media buying agencies) as part of a wider campaign, so it should not surprise you to see the same ads in other places. It is unlikely that your in-game data is being shared beyond your basic details, more likely that you fall into the targeting parameters of multiple separate media buys.

Edited April 3 by NineCloudNine

[MathiOi]

4 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Those ads can be bought by companies (or more specifically their media buying agencies) as part of a wider campaign, so it should not surprise you to see the same ads in other places. It is unlikely that your in-game data is being shared, more likely that you fall into the targeting parameters of multiple separate media buys.

Yeah, fully aware of how the advertising agencies work. My questions are more directed at whether this should be in the game, is it morally right to have it in the game, what behaviour information entails and who can see this ad (or alike) in the game.

[NineCloudNine]

3 minutes ago, MathiOi said:

Yeah, fully aware of how the advertising agencies work. My questions are more directed at whether this should be in the game, is it morally right to have it in the game, what behaviour information entails and who can see this ad (or alike) in the game.

The ads you see in game should conform to local laws, ie where you are. If you think these break Norwegian law you should report it. Nobody under 18 should be seeing gambling ads in countries where gambling is illegal to under 18s. As for the morality of showing gamblimg ads at all, I tend to agree with you but that's a different question to the legality of it.

[XaW]

Honestly, I didn't even know there were actual ads in the game. All I ever see is ads for SI stuff and charities like this:

I think I selected to allow ads when I opened, it and when I look in preferences it seems to be set to "yes" there too.

And, fyi @MathiOi, I'm also Norwegian. Now, I don't know if you do, but perhaps if you use a non-Norwegian VPN or something, that allows gambling ads? Guessing here, as I also know that Norsk Tipping is the only allowed place to gamble (other than Bingo parlours for some reason I've still not understood), so we should not be given them here. 

[santy001]

This is in no way related to SI or in my capacities as a moderator, just some personal thoughts. You've mentioned you have gambled with this site online in your post though so are they licensed under Norwegian rules and it's allowed as a result?

Gambling is rather ingrained in most sports to the point that you couldn't really have the same separation as with covid. Many clubs are sponsored by gambling companies and so licensing their kits would require showing the logos, football grounds are sponsored by them too. Not to mention it is the norm to represent who is favoured with betting odds. 

I wouldn't put too much thought into the ads that are shown, I'm a person who doesn't gamble and I get the ads frequently in my own game (usually for other betting websites) there will be some criteria involved but most of the adverts, despite having the targeting also enabled are in no way aligning with my interests outside of FM. When it comes to the point about children seeing the adverts, that's going to be somewhat speculative and only if information is falsified. There isn't really an incentive in FM, no gameplay features hidden behind an age gate etc. Really the onus is going to be on the gambling providers to ensure that children aren't creating accounts and gambling. 

When it comes to people who struggle with gambling, there is meaningful support out there through groups such as Gambling Therapy: Gambling Therapy - Practical advice and support for problem gambling

[XaW]

Just now, santy001 said:

This is in no way related to SI or in my capacities as a moderator, just some personal thoughts. You've mentioned you have gambled with this site online in your post though so are they licensed under Norwegian rules and it's allowed as a result?

Gambling is rather ingrained in most sports to the point that you couldn't really have the same separation as with covid. Many clubs are sponsored by gambling companies and so licensing their kits would require showing the logos, football grounds are sponsored by them too. Not to mention it is the norm to represent who is favoured with betting odds. 

I wouldn't put too much thought into the ads that are shown, I'm a person who doesn't gamble and I get the ads frequently in my own game (usually for other betting websites) there will be some criteria involved but most of the adverts, despite having the targeting also enabled are in no way aligning with my interests outside of FM. When it comes to the point about children seeing the adverts, that's going to be somewhat speculative and only if information is falsified. There isn't really an incentive in FM, no gameplay features hidden behind an age gate etc. Really the onus is going to be on the gambling providers to ensure that children aren't creating accounts and gambling. 

When it comes to people who struggle with gambling, there is meaningful support out there through groups such as Gambling Therapy: Gambling Therapy - Practical advice and support for problem gambling

Nah, they are not allowed, and Norwegian banks are required to block all incoming and outgoing transfers to gambling outlets. The only way to do so is by using some form of international money transfer that is not "Norwegian" like Neteller and such. There are also laws that will geoblock gambling sites from Norwegian IPs by al Norwegians ISPs. So no, the only way to gamble here is by jumping through a lot of loops. And online poker is not available at any site legally in Norway. Not that an individual will be targeted by the law, but any site offering will.

So even though this user has done so, and that would be the reason for why this would be targeted, I don't think it should be visible to Norwegian users here either, even if it's probably technically legal (Youtube and other web pages hosted outside Norway do so as well).

[MathiOi]

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

This is in no way related to SI or in my capacities as a moderator, just some personal thoughts. You've mentioned you have gambled with this site online in your post though so are they licensed under Norwegian rules and it's allowed as a result?

Gambling is rather ingrained in most sports to the point that you couldn't really have the same separation as with covid. Many clubs are sponsored by gambling companies and so licensing their kits would require showing the logos, football grounds are sponsored by them too. Not to mention it is the norm to represent who is favoured with betting odds. 

I wouldn't put too much thought into the ads that are shown, I'm a person who doesn't gamble and I get the ads frequently in my own game (usually for other betting websites) there will be some criteria involved but most of the adverts, despite having the targeting also enabled are in no way aligning with my interests outside of FM. When it comes to the point about children seeing the adverts, that's going to be somewhat speculative and only if information is falsified. There isn't really an incentive in FM, no gameplay features hidden behind an age gate etc. Really the onus is going to be on the gambling providers to ensure that children aren't creating accounts and gambling. 

When it comes to people who struggle with gambling, there is meaningful support out there through groups such as Gambling Therapy: Gambling Therapy - Practical advice and support for problem gambling

You make a great point about how gambling related things are already in the game and has been for years, but I have never seen a direct ad to a gambling site before advertising with a deposit bonus.

My primary thoughts regarding this was "is this something SI wants in their games" or is it simply just something that the advertising agency accidentally let through? Even if you disregard the ethical and legal dilemmas it poses, I don't think it's good for a game like FM to directly advertise gambling sites. I just wanted to shed some lights on this, whether it's lazy filtering from the advertising agency or a decision that is backed by SI.

I also found it weird how targeted the "Targeted Advertising" actually was and that it showed the same results as Google ads (which are extremely targeted) and just exactly what goes into the "behaviour information" for it to produce a result akin to Googles ads, however it might be entirily be coincidental.

[MathiOi]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

Honestly, I didn't even know there were actual ads in the game. All I ever see is ads for SI stuff and charities like this:

I think I selected to allow ads when I opened, it and when I look in preferences it seems to be set to "yes" there too.

And, fyi @MathiOi, I'm also Norwegian. Now, I don't know if you do, but perhaps if you use a non-Norwegian VPN or something, that allows gambling ads? Guessing here, as I also know that Norsk Tipping is the only allowed place to gamble (other than Bingo parlours for some reason I've still not understood), so we should not be given them here. 

Yeah no I don't use a VPN or something like that, Norwegian ISP and everything. Also, a small correction, norwegians are allowed to gamble on every gambling site with a license (whether that be from Norway, Malta or Curacao) but norwegian banks aren't allowed to acccept withdrawals from foreign gambling sites and the government is trying to impose  a DNS-block on every gambling site that isn't Norsk Tipping.

[santy001]

Based on your own post/statements then as having gambled on the site advertised they must presumably be licensed to offer gambling in Norway (whether that is from Norway or elsewhere) and it is therefore a legal service being provided? That would in turn mean the advertisement is for a legal/licensed service in Norway? Personally I'm open minded to the point I don't think anything like drinking, gambling, smoking or drugs should be illegal but I understand some people find gambling to be distasteful and think it should be illegal. People think that about all sorts of things including video games, of which FM is one. 

When it comes to the ethical aspect, that's going to vary massively from person to person on whether they feel it is ethical or not.

[MathiOi]

6 hours ago, santy001 said:

Based on your own post/statements then as having gambled on the site advertised they must presumably be licensed to offer gambling in Norway (whether that is from Norway or elsewhere) and it is therefore a legal service being provided? That would in turn mean the advertisement is for a legal/licensed service in Norway? Personally I'm open minded to the point I don't think anything like drinking, gambling, smoking or drugs should be illegal but I understand some people find gambling to be distasteful and think it should be illegal. People think that about all sorts of things including video games, of which FM is one. 

When it comes to the ethical aspect, that's going to vary massively from person to person on whether they feel it is ethical or not.

As a Norwegian citizen I am allowed to play on any online gambling site I want to, as long as it has a legitimate gambling license (whether it's from Malta, Curacao or Norway). However for a gambling site to operate and advertise legally in Norway, they must have a Norwegian gambling license, which only the state-regulated gambling site has. In this instance, the advertisement went through SI which is a British firm and therefore they can advertise to Norwegian customers, albeit not directly (plenty of loopholes, not worth discussing).

Regardless of the legitimacy of the ad, I don't think it's good from SI to have a direct ad to a deposit bonus on a gambling site in the game and I was befuddled when I saw it initially. So I was wondering whether this was lazy filtering from the advertisment agency SI uses, or if this was a decision made by SI to allow such ads in their game. The other aspects are just points for discussion.

[dashi112]

this got me thinking about the Advertising Standards Agency ( i'm a UK player) and their crackdown on gambling in football. In theory could their reach be extended to FM? I'm not a legal expert in any way but since SI is a UK Company are they under their pervue for the advertising arrangements?

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, dashi112 said:

this got me thinking about the Advertising Standards Agency ( i'm a UK player) and their crackdown on gambling in football. In theory could their reach be extended to FM? I'm not a legal expert in any way but since SI is a UK Company are they under their pervue for the advertising arrangements?

The OP is raising a moral argument. Whether or not advertising gambling sites is legal here or there, a substantial amount of players of FM are underage and, in my opinion, should be shielded from such influences when playing the game. I play fantasy football, and the site I subscribed to for about 15 years started taking money from gambling sites and starting promoting their sites. I along with many others have since ceased subscribing to them in protest as this development.

One of FM's great strengths for me, is that it is a football simulation that can be enjoyed separate from the increasing commercialisation and raw greed in both the real-world game and in other computer games which require more and more ongoing financial inputs.  I'd like it to stay that way.

[oche balboa]

4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

The OP is raising a moral argument. Whether or not advertising gambling sites is legal here or there, a substantial amount of players of FM are underage and, in my opinion, should be shielded from such influences when playing the game. I play fantasy football, and the site I subscribed to for about 15 years started taking money from gambling sites and starting promoting their sites. I along with many others have since ceased subscribing to them in protest as this development.

One of FM's great strengths for me, is that it is a football simulation that can be enjoyed separate from the increasing commercialisation and raw greed in both the real-world game and in other computer games which require more and more ongoing financial inputs.  I'd like it to stay that way.

You can actually turn the targeted ads off. 

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, oche balboa said:

You can actually turn the targeted ads off. 

Yeah, I know and do. But will the average casual-playing kid who maybe never goes into Preferences know that?

[oche balboa]

51 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Yeah, I know and do. But will the average casual-playing kid who maybe never goes into Preferences know that?

Depends on how savvy they are. I don't think its a big issue. It's worse when Betting companies are advertising on TV and sponsoring football teams and sports events 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

Yeah, I know and do. But will the average casual-playing kid who maybe never goes into Preferences know that?

Would kids get targeted ads for gambling though? Honest question, as I would think any ad company would exclude that as a targeted ad? Not my area of experise mind.

[NineCloudNine]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

Would kids get targeted ads for gambling though? Honest question, as I would think any ad company would exclude that as a targeted ad? Not my area of experise mind.

Not deliberately, at least by any major company. But as there is no verification of the Steam age check it’s possible an under age player could see something they shouldn’t. In practice such sketchy age checks would cause most over 18 advertisers to steer clear. But I don’t know what SI sells or what age check claims they make.

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Not deliberately, at least by any major company. But as there is no verification of the Steam age check it’s possible an under age player could see something they shouldn’t. In practice such sketchy age checks would cause most over 18 advertisers to steer clear. But I don’t know what SI sells or what age check claims they make.

You give your age when you first start the game, but it's entirely on the user being honest though.

[santy001]

On the flip side though there's no incentive for people to lie about their age when getting to that screen on FM. It's not like other games where cutscenes may be gated behind that or settings like the inclusion of blood spatter etc. 

If you believe there is a moral obligation for Steam to include age verification then that's something to take up with them. If you play an RPG through Steam and then use the "Discovery Queue" you get some pretty messed up suggestions. I just loaded one up now, first two suggestions were a CK 3 DLC, a medieval game with "Guilds" in the title, and then the 3rd up offered suggestion is wholly inappropriate and has tags like this:

I won't include any details for the game itself because it's not appropriate and the only reason I can make this point is I discovered it unwittingly in the past. It's nothing to do with SI but if you check the FM page it's flagged as Simulation. Steam has determined that playing FM along with those other tags of single player, 3D, story rich and adventure make this a viable suggestion. 2 of the 12 games in the Steam queue system were explicit in their content. 

Certain other games are only able to continue being sold to and played by children because they were able to convince people that the gambling done in those games offers nothing of tangible value outside of those games.