My cautious and no counter-press tactics

[Novem9]

I was surprised by the statements that FM24 can only be played through counter-pressing. It seemed to me that the new system of losing balls and movements provided advantages for playing as number two. 

So I decided to combine my journeyman in Italy with trying to ONLY play with a cautious mentality and never press. So far I have used two main tactics, and one additional one. I have a few more spares, but I have tested very few of them. They all have identical TI.

Season 1, 5212.

The main difficulty here was that I had practically no suitable reserve players. Since I play with Daveincid mods, it were a lot of injures, which made my team weaker.

  

• I see this as mix of counter and position attacks tactic. Plan A - fast deployment. TI 'play out of defence' isn't linked for this, because it's about in-possession phase. But fast attacks is in-transition phase.
• Plan B is positional attacks. This is very convenient in FM24, since I don’t need to change anything at all
• Also I use higher defensive line for compactness, it's not about pressure. Also players use drop off more. Maybe I'm wrong, but the closest analogue is some of Antonio Conte's teams

 

Roles:

• AM is a key. Basically he is not a playmaker, but in fact he is. I definetile want to use Trequartista role in a top club later.
• I started with pair of DLF-AF, but AF was isolate. PF is a good universal striker, predictable for partners.
• First plan was DM pair of DM(d)-DLP(s). But I have no clear DMs in this team. Perhaps the final version was even better

 

25 goals against:

I feel this tactic is good for long distance. In play-off it could be some issues like this:

 

 

Squad stats

 

xG

Chances created

Shots against:

 

You can ask for more information, especially if you explain where a screen is located  

Conclusion: This is specific, playing with a cautious mentality is not always easy. I didn’t change it even when the team needed to score a goal in the last seconds. And still it was possible, the team made comebacks.
There is no point in saying that this is not an exploit. The results are at the level of expectations, or slightly higher. But I really liked it. Therefore, it is possible to play on a cautious mentality. and should be  

[Novem9]

Season 2, 4231

 

My manager for this save has a good reputation, so after 1st season I moved to Sampdoria (10st place in season 23/24). Sampdoria had some good players, but there is a difficult budget situation. So no chance for a good transfers. Team lose some key players, like GK which rate was 4 starts and Serie A player rank.

 

As I said, 100% the same TIs. I used a clear DM in this formation because we have just 2CBs and right WB support attacks.
AM still has no playmaker role. Btw, I forgot to mention, AM(s) mentality in FM24 is not cautious:

It's positive! And this is amazing! I really like to see how SI rethink PI mentality in FM24.

I really like pair of WB(a) + Ap(s) and this formation is no exception. Also I noticed Wingers are not just a runners. IW started to be more specific roles, but Wingers more universal.

 

28 goals against. Despite the fact that my CBs were far from the best in the league. I also critically lacked a striker who could to decide a clear moments.

 

xG:

Chances:

Shots against:

 

Player stats:

Conclusions: the team is able to be competitive with a cautious mentality and without pressure in FM24. The goal was to get into the top 4. Although in terms of the level of players, I would say about the top 8. Sampdoria was even the first, I can complain about the injury of our main goalkeeper.

 

Also I used plan B without CAM:

[Rashidi]

There is nothing wrong with playing on cautious mentality, been playing the low block on cautious this whole season and I am in with a shot at the title, playing a brand of football one can only call shithousery.  Glad to see you making headway.

[Novem9]

8 минут назад, Rashidi сказал:

There is nothing wrong with playing on cautious mentality, been playing the low block on cautious this whole season and I am in with a shot at the title, playing a brand of football one can only call shithousery.  Glad to see you making headway.

While I was hoping for patch 24.3 to fix a number of (non-critical) issues, I haven't been this excited about FM in years  This is so different from criticism in feedback that I decided to make this thread. People need to look less for exploit tactics, that's a thing of the past, imo.
Also, I don’t remember that adapting the formation to the opponent was so useful before. I changed from 4231 to 523 simply because my opponent was unusually good at 442. We managed to beat him with this trick, and this is just one example. Which gave wonderful emotions!

Playing with a cautious mentality, I truly enjoy every goal. It feels like something deserved. And, well, having the best defense in the league is my fetish. 

Edited March 12 by Novem9

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Playing with a cautious mentality, I truly enjoy every goal. It feels like something deserved. And, well, having the best defense in the league is my fetish. 

The lower mentalities can work well! The reduced intensity can be a real plus if you are micro managing the match a bit more. 

I might consider wide BPD in your tactic with dribble more. WCB(s) can work nicely going forward but they will leave gaps that can see you caught out, a wide normal CD I find a bit ineffectual for a counter. 

[carloshcorbalan]

They seem interesting...
upload link please..

[Novem9]

5 минут назад, carloshcorbalan сказал:

They seem interesting...
upload link please..

It's like on screenshots, I don't use PIs

[carloshcorbalan]

[Bahnzo]

I have a 442 which I'm trying to  work into a possession oriented system. I've been using Cautious as well as I want to keep possession first and foremost. I'm still working on it. Sometimes it works great and other times I get trounced. But Cautious can certainly be made to work. 

I also use a Standard press. I like this as it allows me to set certain players to press harder (or less harder, usually my midfield wings). The combination of the Cautious mentality and the lower pressing as well as the lower tempo has the added benefit of my players being less fatigued from match to match.  

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

have a 442 which I'm trying to  work into a possession oriented system. I've been using Cautious as well as I want to keep possession first and foremost.

You don’t need to play on cautious to have high possession. It’s just a risk modifier. If your rest defence is set up well you can generate 60% possession playing on higher mentalities. It’s about your choice of roles/duties and team instructions. 
 

While a lower mentality does unmake it easy to play possession football, the cautious mentality could also see your players turn over the ball should they not have players in good positions to pass the ball. Play on positive and higher iince you get more comfortable.

[rrreee3]

On 12/03/2024 at 15:19, Novem9 said:

I was surprised by the statements that FM24 can only be played through counter-pressing.

Gegenpress fanboys, don't listen to them 

[ceefax the cat]

15 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

 

 

I also use a Standard press. 

doesn't look like it

[Bahnzo]

14 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You don’t need to play on cautious to have high possession. It’s just a risk modifier.

Which is why I'm using cautious, I'm trying to have my players take less risk and retain possession. It might be you don't *have* to use it, but I do. 

 

 

53 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

doesn't look like it

The LOE is set to high, not the pressing mentality.....

[Cloud9]

51 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

Which is why I'm using cautious, I'm trying to have my players take less risk and retain possession. It might be you don't *have* to use it, but I do. 

He's saying that by playing on cautious you could have an adverse reaction and lose possession by taking less risk, hence the advice to play on positive as you gain experience.

By addressing your roles directly you'll have a more effective style to keep the ball. Roles like the AF for example will constantly look to run in behind and lead to turnovers. 

You might also consider that the 4-4-2 is not a formation that naturally lends itself to possession based approaches. IRL we've seen Atletico Madrid drop their iconic 4-4-2 for a 3-5-2 to exert more influence on matches themselves. That's not universally the case w/Unai Emery employing a progressive 4-4-2 this season at Villa, but we've also seen him move to more of a 4-2-3-1 in games where he wants more control. 

• In general: central control dictates a match. That's less so on FM than it is IRL, but it's the thinking behind what we've seen from Peps IFB + John Stones style where he's putting 4 player's into the midfield and asking the wingers to pin defenders wide, opening up gaps inside. 
• W/a 4-4-2 you've got 2 central midfielders and the wingers sit deeper, unable to exert influence in the same way as if they're in advanced locations. You've also got to be extra consensus about your striker pairing participating for the team out of possession, or you'll fall into more direct approaches.

That's not to say you can't play possession based football w/a 4-4-2, esp on FM, but it's handy to be aware of the formations strengths and limitations as you approach your setup. Studying VIlla's approach might be a nice starting point and picking out the key player's for the style to tick. Pau Torres is one I'd look at immediately, his ability to both distribute and bring the ball out of the back 4 makes Villa a completely different side w/out him.

Edited March 13 by Cloud9

[Birtan61]

6 saat önce, Cloud9 said:

Tedbirli oynayarak olumsuz tepkiler alabileceğinizi ve daha az risk alarak topu kaybedebileceğinizi söylüyor, bu nedenle deneyim kazandıkça pozitif oynamanızı tavsiye ediyor.

Rollerinizi doğrudan ele alarak topu elinizde tutmak için daha etkili bir stile sahip olacaksınız. Örneğin AF gibi roller sürekli olarak geride kalmaya çalışacak ve top kayıplarına yol açacaktır. 

4-4-2'nin doğal olarak topa sahip olmaya dayalı yaklaşımlara uygun bir diziliş olmadığını da düşünebilirsiniz. IRL'de Atletico Madrid'in maçlar üzerinde daha fazla etki yaratmak için ikonik 4-4-2'yi 3-5-2'ye bıraktığını gördük. Unai Emery'nin bu sezon Villa'da ilerici 4-4-2'yi kullanması genel olarak geçerli değil ancak daha fazla kontrol istediği maçlarda 4-2-3-1'e daha fazla yöneldiğini de gördük. 

• Genel olarak: merkezi kontrol bir eşleşmeyi belirler. Bu, FM'de IRL'den daha az geçerli, ancak Peps IFB + John Stones tarzında gördüğümüz şeyin arkasında, 4 oyuncuyu orta sahaya yerleştirdiği ve kanat oyuncularından defans oyuncularını geniş tutmasını ve içeride boşluklar açmasını isteyen düşünce yatıyor. 
• 4-4-2'de 2 orta saha oyuncunuz var ve kanat oyuncuları daha derinde oturuyor, ileri konumlardaymış gibi etki uygulayamıyorlar. Ayrıca forvet ikilinizin topa sahip olmayan takıma katılması konusunda ekstra fikir birliğine sahip olmanız gerekir, aksi takdirde daha doğrudan yaklaşımlara düşersiniz.

Bu, özellikle FM'de 4-4-2 ile topa sahip olmaya dayalı futbol oynayamayacağınız anlamına gelmez, ancak kurulumunuza yaklaşırken dizilişin güçlü yönlerinin ve sınırlamalarının farkında olmak kullanışlıdır. VIlla'nın yaklaşımını incelemek güzel bir başlangıç noktası olabilir ve stil için kilit oyuncuların seçimini yapabilirsiniz. Pau Torres hemen bakacağım bir isim, hem topu dağıtma hem de arka 4'ten dışarı çıkarma yeteneği Villa'yı onsuz bambaşka bir takım haline getiriyor.

Aston Villa play with double number 10. What do you think the roles might be? 

[Cloud9]

47 minutes ago, Birtan61 said:

Aston Villa play with double number 10. What do you think the roles might be? 

Do you mean 8's? I would consider Douglas Luiz and Boubacar Kamara the established partnership, with Kamara playing a conservative role as Luiz (9 goals, 5 assists in the league) goes forward to create more. I'd consider playing them as 6's actually with Luiz as a SV(s) (a defensive box to box midfielder) and Kamara as a DM(s) (w/ or w/out hold position).

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Edited March 14 by Cloud9

[Novem9]

14 часов назад, Cloud9 сказал:

He's saying that by playing on cautious you could have an adverse reaction and lose possession by taking less risk, hence the advice to play on positive as you gain experience.

 

A few years ago I read an interesting thought on this forum. I don't remember if it was the SI developer or one of the tactics gurus. The point is this. With a cautious mentality, the team plays vertically in their own half of the field and short passes to the other side. With an aggressive mentality, the team plays short passes in their own half of the field, and more vertically in the other half.

This is actually an obvious point. But knowing and taking into account this factor, the understanding of the choice of mentality becomes deeper.

[Birtan61]

9 saat önce, Cloud9 said:

8'leri mi kastediyorsun? Douglas Luiz ve Boubacar Kamara'nın yerleşik bir ortaklık olduğunu düşünüyorum; Luiz (ligde 9 gol, 5 asist) daha fazlasını yaratmak için ilerlerken Kamara muhafazakar bir rol oynuyor. Bunları aslında Luiz'in SV(ler) (savunma kutusu ile boks orta saha oyuncusu) ve Kamara'nın DM(ler) (tutma pozisyonu olmadan veya olmadan) olarak 6'lı olarak oynamayı düşünürdüm.

  İçeriği gizle

  İçeriği gizle

  İçeriği gizle

no, I'm talking about double 10.
Ramsey & Tielemans 

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Birtan61 said:

So looking up this game Villa 4 vs Forest 2, it looks like this is how Villa set up:

Spoiler

It's their go to 4-4-2 this season, Kamara is out w/an ACL injury now (which I didn't realize) so McGinn takes his place alongside Luiz. 

In terms of that screenshot I think you're seeing Tielemans drop deep in the striker pairing, movement we were seeing from Diaby before his form dipped. Ramsey and Bailey are still the wide players here.

If you're seeing the wide player's cut inside you could reflect that in their role, but I'd need to do more looking to tell you how they specifically play in those areas. Tielemans or Diaby I think would be strongly represented by a F9 role though! That would give you that great dropping movement from the striker.

Edited March 14 by Cloud9

[Birtan61]

52 dakika önce, Cloud9 said:

So looking up this game Villa 4 vs Forest 2, it looks like this is how Villa set up:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's their go to 4-4-2 this season, Kamara is out w/an ACL injury now (which I didn't realize) so McGinn takes his place alongside Luiz. 

In terms of that screenshot I think you're seeing Tielemans drop deep in the striker pairing, movement we were seeing from Diaby before his form dipped. Ramsey and Bailey are still the wide players here.

If you're seeing the wide player's cut inside you could reflect that in their role, but I'd need to do more looking to tell you how they specifically play in those areas. Tielemans or Diaby I think would be strongly represented by a F9 role though! That would give you that great dropping movement from the striker.

got it, thanks buddy,👍

[Birtan61]

On 14.03.2024 at 18:05, Cloud9 said:

Villa 4 vs Forest 2 maçına bakıldığında Villa'nın kurulumunun şu şekilde olduğu görülüyor:

  İçeriği gizle

Bu sezon 4-4-2'ye gidiyorlar, Kamara şu anda ön çapraz bağ sakatlığından dolayı yok (ki bunu fark etmemiştim) bu yüzden Luiz'in yanındaki yerini McGinn alıyor. 

Bu ekran görüntüsüne göre, sanırım Tielemans'ın forvet eşleşmesinde derinlere düştüğünü görüyorsunuz, Diaby'nin formu düşmeden önce hareketini görüyoruz. Ramsey ve Bailey hala burada geniş oyuncular.

Eğer kanat oyuncusunun içerideki kesimini görüyorsanız, bunu rollerine de yansıtabilirsiniz, ancak size bu alanlarda özellikle nasıl oynadıklarını anlatmak için daha fazla araştırma yapmam gerekiyor. Tielemans veya Diaby'nin F9 rolüyle güçlü bir şekilde temsil edileceğini düşünüyorum! Bu size forvetin harika düşme hareketini verecektir.

What do you think Ramsey's role should be?

 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Birtan61 said:

What do you think Ramsey's role should be?

I have not seen much of Ramsey this season, but in FM terms (and in how Villa play) I like a WM or DW in a 4-4-2 on this profile of player. 

Edited April 2 by Cloud9

[Birtan61]

42 dakika önce, Cloud9 said:

Bu sezon Ramsey'i pek görmedim ama FM açısından (ve Villa'nın oynama şekli açısından) bu oyuncu profilinde 4-4-2'de WM veya DW'yi seviyorum. 

Every player plays the same role on the left wing, so it's like an AMC.🤔

[Duracellio]

Em 12/03/2024 em 08:38, Novem9 disse:

Season 2, 4231

 

My manager for this save has a good reputation, so after 1st season I moved to Sampdoria (10st place in season 23/24). Sampdoria had some good players, but there is a difficult budget situation. So no chance for a good transfers. Team lose some key players, like GK which rate was 4 starts and Serie A player rank.

 

As I said, 100% the same TIs. I used a clear DM in this formation because we have just 2CBs and right WB support attacks.
AM still has no playmaker role. Btw, I forgot to mention, AM(s) mentality in FM24 is not cautious:

It's positive! And this is amazing! I really like to see how SI rethink PI mentality in FM24.

I really like pair of WB(a) + Ap(s) and this formation is no exception. Also I noticed Wingers are not just a runners. IW started to be more specific roles, but Wingers more universal.

 

28 goals against. Despite the fact that my CBs were far from the best in the league. I also critically lacked a striker who could to decide a clear moments.

 

xG:

Chances:

Shots against:

 

Player stats:

Conclusions: the team is able to be competitive with a cautious mentality and without pressure in FM24. The goal was to get into the top 4. Although in terms of the level of players, I would say about the top 8. Sampdoria was even the first, I can complain about the injury of our main goalkeeper.

 

Also I used plan B without CAM:

Hi, I've found the 4231 setup very interesting.

One thing that got my attention was the fact that you have an AM and an AP in the same "stratta" (have you tested moving the AM next to the winger?). At first I thought, they must be in the same areas a lot, but since you use a cautious mentality they probably do a lot of short passes between them, it could be nice to see.

How do they behave, being the two creators behind the forward and being the AP forced to get inside because of the movement of that attacking WB.

Cheers.

[Novem9]

6 часов назад, Duracellio сказал:

Hi, I've found the 4231 setup very interesting.

One thing that got my attention was the fact that you have an AM and an AP in the same "stratta" (have you tested moving the AM next to the winger?). At first I thought, they must be in the same areas a lot, but since you use a cautious mentality they probably do a lot of short passes between them, it could be nice to see.

How do they behave, being the two creators behind the forward and being the AP forced to get inside because of the movement of that attacking WB.

Cheers.

Hi, AP plays on vertical line as DM very often, WBa is lonely on right wing. Sometimes AP plays as classic winger too.

AM in cautious mentality has positive player's mentality, so he plays higher, because AP = goes down closer to teammate who controls a ball. Also AMs is pretty static role, which I need in this setup. AP is kind of fantasista, undefined variable or something like this  

[Novem9]

I want to check some things, but have no time right now. So just holiday test in this moment:

 

Season 1

Season 2 (all transfers by AI)

Season 3

Stats of season 3. No many cards as I predicted:

No league winners unfortunatelly, but Milan won two Copa Italia:

Any ideas how to improve this tactic (and keep defensive priority) ?

[Vizzini]

6 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

I want to check some things, but have no time right now. So just holiday test in this moment:

 

Season 1

Season 2 (all transfers by AI)

Season 3

Stats of season 3. No many cards as I predicted:

No league winners unfortunatelly, but Milan won two Copa Italia:

Any ideas how to improve this tactic (and keep defensive priority) ?

IF on the right will offer more penetration. AM, W and SV is already supporting attacks, you don't need an additional creator. Also, the AP is ball-hog, so will slow down your attacks. 

[coach vahid]

il y a 45 minutes, Vizzini a dit :

IF on the right will offer more penetration. AM, W and SV is already supporting attacks, you don't need an additional creator. Also, the AP is ball-hog, so will slow down your attacks. 

You will play with IF on attack or support?

[thizaum]

OP, what did you do if you were playing as Sampdoria against Latina or Rimini, at home, you get to half-time 0-0 with 60% possession, 3 shots on goal against 0? Just curious about the approach.

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, thizaum сказал:

OP, what did you do if you were playing as Sampdoria against Latina or Rimini, at home, you get to half-time 0-0 with 60% possession, 3 shots on goal against 0? Just curious about the approach.

In context where I need to use cautious mentality only and ignore pressure?

[thizaum]

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

In context where I need to use cautious mentality only and ignore pressure?

No no, what do you do in a match against a much weaker team that would be happy not to attack you. 

If your team is too passive in this case, the match will end 0-0. Or they may even score from a lucky set piece.

[Novem9]

10 часов назад, thizaum сказал:

No no, what do you do in a match against a much weaker team that would be happy not to attack you

Probably nothing

If my team create a chances, it's mean plan is working. If I noticed something during game, maybe I switch roles/duties. Sometimes I change formation, but usually it's happen against strong teams. It's not possible to win 100% games

[thizaum]

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Probably nothing

If my team create a chances, it's mean plan is working. If I noticed something during game, maybe I switch roles/duties. Sometimes I change formation, but usually it's happen against strong teams. It's not possible to win 100% games

But what if you are not creating the chances, but you actually should (because your team is much stronger than the opponent)?

Regardless of how the teams match, if the match ends 0-0, but my team created 2.0xG and the opponent 0.21xG, I'd say my job was well done and we were unlucky or the players failed converting the chances.

But if my team is much stronger and yet I cannot get past like 0.3xG or 0.4xG, especially because the opponent is playing a defensive 3-4-2-1 (with 4 players in the DM stratum), happily allowing for my team to have the ball and blatantly wasting time, then I think I'm doing a bad job for this match (not for the whole season).

In summary: I think cautious or defensive football can work in FM and the team can learn how to do it and be successful. However, while this is likely effective against stronger teams and possibly works against similar teams, I personally don't think it works against weaker teams playing defensive football. 9 times out of 10 these matches will end 0-0. I'm not saying you need to play attacking football in this case, I just think it needs to be "less defensive" (or more neutral or balanced).

By the way, I think the same can be said about real life football. Example: Italy in 2006 beat Ghana (2-0), Czech R (2-0), Australia (1-0), Ukraine (3-0), but tied with US (1-1). It was a rather "easy" path until semifinals (Germany) and if they tied (or lost) any of those "easier" matches, maybe they wouldn't have reached the semifinal. They conceded 2 goals in the whole tournament (including the Zidane penalty in the final), but if they didn't score against the likes of Australia and Ukraine, it isn't that useful.

 

[Novem9]

В 09.04.2024 в 13:04, Vizzini сказал:

IF on the right will offer more penetration. AM, W and SV is already supporting attacks, you don't need an additional creator. Also, the AP is ball-hog, so will slow down your attacks. 

Here we go:

 

[Vizzini]

18 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Here we go:

 

That is some season, congrats! Tempted to try it myself now, any PIs?

[Novem9]

5 минут назад, Vizzini сказал:

That is some season, congrats! Tempted to try it myself now, any PIs?

AMs = hold ball

Also I guess default passing and FBs -> FBa would be a nice tweaks