Is it possible to recreate the style and frequency of deep crosses by Stoke under Pulis?

[lied90]

Question in title. Looking for suggestions.

As can be seen when watching old Stoke matches under Tony Pulis, the fullbacks would launch very deep crosses towards their forwards almost instinctively with a very high frequency.

I can't manage to recreate this, and I'm watching on full highlights to make sure I don't miss anything.

When testing I've used a 442 DM formation, with a TF (a) suppoerted by a PF(s). Instead of launching it to my strikers, the fullbacks tend to just pass it to the wingers or to my central defenders.

I've tested the following roles and instructions for my fullbacks:

In possession TI's: Much more direct passing, Higher tempo, Hit early crosses.

FB (S), Cross From Deep, Cross more frequently. Tried with both Take more, and take fewer risks. Tried with dribble less.
FB (D), Cross more often (deep crosses+take fewer risks hardcoded)
NFB (D), default PI's.

FB (S) with added PI's seem optimal to me in theory, when observing I see very little difference (in terms of deep crosses).

Things I've tried with the editor:

Removing all traits.
Adding Crosses from deep trait.
Increased crossing, technique and vision attribute to 15.

These changed yielded no visible results.
 

Other observations:

My fullback find my striker more often when my strikers roam wide.

[RDF Tactics]

What's your mentality on?

I think with the instructions you've set, deep crosses should be happening. But maybe a change of mentality (to attacking = more risk) can give it a little push

[lied90]

15 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

What's your mentality on?

I think with the instructions you've set, deep crosses should be happening. But maybe a change of mentality (to attacking = more risk) can give it a little push

I've tried on balanced mostly, haven't gone as far as attacking but I'll give it a try.

It will make my fullbacks take more risks, but it will also make them get further forward. This will make them cross more, I just don't think the increase in crosses will be deep crosses.

[Cloud9]

35 minutes ago, lied90 said:

I've tried on balanced mostly, haven't gone as far as attacking but I'll give it a try.

It will make my fullbacks take more risks, but it will also make them get further forward. This will make them cross more, I just don't think the increase in crosses will be deep crosses.

What about a double WB(d) with hit crosses early? They will stay deep and primarily progress the ball through crossing (instead of passing or dribbling). Sitting a bit wider puts them in prime crossing position as well and on defend duty they'll give you a defensively resolute, no nonsense back 4 which should be fairly thematic with Stoke?

You can also ask your crossers to directly seek out the TF in their PIs.

My other concern would be a lack of pushback on the opposition w/a 4-4-2 with that strike partnership if you're on a mid or low block. W/out advanced quick wide players or a spearheading forward with a change of pace, you may find the opposition creeping up the pitch w/out fear. This could impact your crossing game as well. PF(a)/AF/P all offer threats to run in behind, which you could pair with the hold up role (TF or PF(s)). TF will act as a ball magnet, so I would prioritize this role for your setup.

Additionally, playing w/out a SK, playmaker (a build up ball magnet), and BPD (two CDs instead w/pass it shorter) could help funnel the ball to the wingbacks. Try directly distributing to them as well from your gk.

Edited March 6 by Cloud9

[vrig]

You could also try giving them fewer options. For example, if they're passing it to the wingers, make the wingers play higher up away from them, or narrower into traffic. Typically if I want to see fullbacks crossing a lot, I'll go 4-2-2-2 so they have very little alternative. It gives them more room to get their heads up, with the added benefit of having players closer to your strikers so they can contest the second ball.

[lied90]

44 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

What about a double WB(d) with hit crosses early? They will stay deep and primarily progress the ball through crossing (instead of passing or dribbling). Sitting a bit wider puts them in prime crossing position as well and on defend duty they'll give you a defensively resolute, no nonsense back 4 which should be fairly thematic with Stoke?

You can also ask your crossers to directly seek out the TF in their PIs.

My other concern would be a lack of pushback on the opposition w/a 4-4-2 with that strike partnership if you're on a mid or low block. W/out advanced quick wide players or a spearheading forward with a change of pace, you may find the opposition creeping up the pitch w/out fear. This could impact your crossing game as well. PF(a)/AF/P all offer threats to run in behind, which you could pair with the hold up role (TF or PF(s)). TF will act as a ball magnet, so I would prioritize this role for your setup.

Additionally, playing w/out a SK, playmaker (a build up ball magnet), and BPD (two CDs instead w/pass it shorter) could help funnel the ball to the wingbacks. Try directly distributing to them as well from your gk.

I appreciate the overall tactical advice, but I'd prefer to stick strictly to the topic of increasing deep crosses.

This is the default tactic:

FB (s) PI's: Cross from deep, dribble less, take more risks, cross more often.
Added trait: Cross from deep
Removed all other traits

Crossing vs Everton:

Only two crosses in total from my fullbacks, both from left fullback, both blocked and both high up the pitch.

 

I then tested the same tactic with WB (d) (cross more often):
 

Bournemouth vs Forest

All byline crosses except from one by Kerkez, but not really deep either(?).

I've also looked at the passes done by fullbacks, and none of them qualify as a deep cross.

[lied90]

1 hour ago, RDF Tactics said:

What's your mentality on?

I think with the instructions you've set, deep crosses should be happening. But maybe a change of mentality (to attacking = more risk) can give it a little push

Tested for one match (vs Forest) with my default tactic, just changed mentality to attacking (se previous post to see the default tactic etc)

Fullback crosses:

 

Passes:

The long pass highlighted was indeed a very deep cross directly from Tete to our TF!!! But it was a free kick.

 

Edited March 6 by lied90

[RDF Tactics]

3 minutes ago, lied90 said:

Tested for one match (vs Forest) with my default tactic, just changed mentality to attacking (se previous post to see the default tactic etc)

Fullback crosses:

 

Passes:

The long pass highlighted was indeed a very deep cross directly from Tete to our TF!!! But it was a free kick.

I'm trying myself and can only really get one each, if that, myself.

Still trying other things so will get back to you in a moment to see if I find a trigger

[lied90]

1 hour ago, vrig said:

You could also try giving them fewer options. For example, if they're passing it to the wingers, make the wingers play higher up away from them, or narrower into traffic. Typically if I want to see fullbacks crossing a lot, I'll go 4-2-2-2 so they have very little alternative. It gives them more room to get their heads up, with the added benefit of having players closer to your strikers so they can contest the second ball.

Limiting their options so they are forced to play it long makes sense, the drawback would be that a 4222 shape would no longer make it look like a Tony Pulis team.

[RDF Tactics]

I feel like I'm getting there. Sort of. So I had to actually watch these crosses because the majority are from corners or throw-ins (throw short and then they early cross).

Atm, difficult to replicate from both sides - The RB is more open to in this game. Last game, it was the LB.

Watching, I counted 3 open-play deep crosses from RB. 0 from LB. 

Regardless, it's something that I'll report if that's okay with you. (using this post). I feel the combo of hit early crosses and FBs having cross from deep should have a greater effect.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[lied90]

9 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

I feel like I'm getting there. Sort of. So I had to actually watch these crosses because the majority are from corners or throw-ins (throw short and then they early cross).

Atm, difficult to replicate from both sides - The RB is more open to in this game. Last game, it was the LB.

Watching, I counted 3 open-play deep crosses from RB. 0 from LB. 

Regardless, it's something that I'll report if that's okay with you. (using this post). I feel the combo of hit early crosses and FBs having cross from deep should have a greater effect.

  Hide contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Report away obviously.

I'd like to point out that I kinda expect even deeper crosses in the context of crosses under Tony Pulis.

FM might consider it a long pass, which is why I also look at passes done by fullbacks.

[RDF Tactics]

1 minute ago, lied90 said:

Report away obviously.

I'd like to point out that I kinda expect even deeper crosses in the context of crosses under Tony Pulis.

FM might consider it a long pass, which is why I also look at passes done by fullbacks.

I also find the cross from deep and hit early crosses a bit contradictory.

It says "hit early crosses" under final third instructions. But in player instructions, it specifically mentions crossing before reaching the final 3rd. 

I'm not even sure, now, if that instruction is going to be helpful for FBs crossing from deep

[RDF Tactics]

So I'll probably leave it here as, just in my opinion, deep crossing isn't working as pictured. The ability for your full-back to get the ball from A to B by direct pass/cross to a target forward.

This is the best I've managed to get it. At least Hume as tried a deep pass into the box but just one. I guess you can count two of those yellow-coloured crosses as a deep cross - though in player instructions, it says cross deep before getting into the attacking 3rd. Watching my FB in possession, they show no urgency or play to make that direct ball to TF. (also have aim cross to TF in player instructions)

This is using cautious, btw. So maybe the more defensive you go, the more it can happen.

In my opinion, I can understand if was told FB on support, asking them to cross from deep, you are only increasing the tendency, therefore not guaranteed to always look for it.

Disappointing when it's a hard-coded instruction, though. It should be a part of the FB typical behaviour regardless. Like a Winger will look to dribble more regardless. AF will look to move into channels etc. FBs with cross deep should be looking to cross deep.

Edited March 6 by RDF Tactics

[lied90]

50 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

So I'll probably leave it here as, just in my opinion, deep crossing isn't working as pictured. The ability for your full-back to get the ball from A to B by direct pass/cross to a target forward.

This is the best I've managed to get it. At least Hume as tried a deep pass into the box but just one. I guess you can count two of those yellow-coloured crosses as a deep cross - though in player instructions, it says cross deep before getting into the attacking 3rd. Watching my FB in possession, they show no urgency or play to make that direct ball to TF. (also have aim cross to TF in player instructions)

This is using cautious, btw. So maybe the more defensive you go, the more it can happen.

In my opinion, I can understand if was told FB on support, asking them to cross from deep, you are only increasing the tendency, therefore not guaranteed to always look for it.

Disappointing when it's a hard-coded instruction, though. It should be a part of the FB typical behaviour regardless. Like a Winger will look to dribble more regardless. AF will look to move into channels etc. FBs with cross deep should be looking to cross deep.

Thanks for making the effort.

It's quite frustrating as it's a very key part of this playstyle.

[Jimmy Wong]

Hey, would you mind providing us with some examples in the form of PKMs that are timestamped with times they could have crossed earlier from deep in the Bug Tracker, please?

 

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, lied90 said:

Thanks for making the effort.

It's quite frustrating as it's a very key part of this playstyle.

Hmm that is frustating, I'll do some more looking myself and see if I can make any progress here.

For what it's worth I appreciate how you've approached problem solving here, a constructive dialogue is a breath of fresh air compared to the "it's broken" mantra we've been getting a lot lately. 

Edited March 6 by Cloud9

[lied90]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Wong said:

Hey, would you mind providing us with some examples in the form of PKMs that are timestamped with times they could have crossed earlier from deep in the Bug Tracker, please?

 

I can do that when I'm back home tomorrow. How many do you need ? Asking because it sounds a bit time consuming.

[ceefax the cat]

The short answer is absolutely not and don't waste your time trying. Check the 'Route One' thread for lots of examples of people trying to get this to work and failing.

[lied90]

18 hours ago, Jimmy Wong said:

Hey, would you mind providing us with some examples in the form of PKMs that are timestamped with times they could have crossed earlier from deep in the Bug Tracker, please?

 

Done now.

[lied90]

I've continued tweaking but I think I've come to the conclusion that with whatever combination of instructions and roles I've tried, fullbacks will not attempt diagonal long passes/crosses from certain zones.

Fullbacks under Tony Pulis often passed diagonal long balls from zone 1,3,4,6,7,9 towards the tall strikers in their team.

In FM, the fullbacks heavily prioritize passing it sideways/backwards to the CB or forwards to the winger when in possession in the mentioned zones.

They rarely attempt deep crosses/long diagonals unless they are in the final two zones (13,15,16,18). Even in zone 10 and 12 they rarely happen in my experience.

This is the pass/cross map against West Ham in a 3-0 win.

The few long balls fullbacks attempt from deeper areas are passes into space when the striker moves between opposing CB and fullback.

In this picture Kerkez has a lot of time on the ball. He has the cross early trait, very direct passing, high tempo, cross towards TF, hit early crosses etc. Whenever this happens in FM, I see the FB pass either toward the wing, or sideways to the DM or CB.

Our TF is the big white guy towards the left corner of the picture. The volante(s) Alex Scott is fairly close, Solanke his partner striker is fairly close and angled towards him, and Sinistera our right winger is also close enough to fight for the second ball.

Kerkez goes for the safe choice and passes it into the legs of Kluivert.

In most cases there is nothing wrong with that. Kluivert is super fast and good 1v1 so he can make something happen. The big issue is that the FB almost always goes for this choice, when given clear instructions to get it towards our strikers.

 

Edited March 7 by lied90

[lied90]

18 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Hmm that is frustating, I'll do some more looking myself and see if I can make any progress here.

For what it's worth I appreciate how you've approached problem solving here, a constructive dialogue is a breath of fresh air compared to the "it's broken" mantra we've been getting a lot lately. 

I think it's already an issue if experienced FM players have to put their heads together in order to accomplish something as simple as a long ball from fullback to striker. It's a very basic concept, unlike complex passing patterns and fluid transitions.

It's always good to ask to see if wiser managers know how to do something you don't, but in the case of long balls, it should be intuitive enough for anyone to recreate it close to real life.

[crusadertsar]

It's funny but long ball football is all I could remember playing in FM14. Don't know what happened with all the games since. 

[Cloud9]

22 hours ago, lied90 said:

I think it's already an issue if experienced FM players have to put their heads together in order to accomplish something as simple as a long ball from fullback to striker. It's a very basic concept, unlike complex passing patterns and fluid transitions.

It's always good to ask to see if wiser managers know how to do something you don't, but in the case of long balls, it should be intuitive enough for anyone to recreate it close to real life.

I think that makes sense.  

I've managed to get the players to produce many more crosses in my tinkering, but they're from fairly advanced positions as you're experiencing as well. 

Edited March 8 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

I think the problem is how FBs are coded to interact with wingers. I play a 4-1-3-2 with WBs and a HB. The 3 are B2B-AP-B2B. The 2 are TF-AF. My WBs bang in cross after cross, from all areas. They are consistently the top 2 in the league for crosses attempted, by miles.

Using a 4-3-3 with the same players as FBs but with W or IW ahead of them and they barely cross at all, preferring to seek out the W on their side or recycle to a CM.

[lied90]

10 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

I think the problem is how FBs are coded to interact with wingers. I play a 4-1-3-2 with WBs and a HB. The 3 are B2B-AP-B2B. The 2 are TF-AF. My WBs bang in cross after cross, from all areas.

Can you see from the analytics page that they send diagonal long passes from below the midfield line?

 

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, lied90 said:

Can you see from the analytics page that they send diagonal long passes from below the midfield line?

 

This wouldn't solve your issue directly with the recreation, but as for a route one style... you could play a double BPD w/more direct passing PIs who will actually launch balls from your defensive third.

Just something to mull over. 

Edited March 8 by Cloud9

[lied90]

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

This wouldn't solve your issue directly with the recreation, but as for a route one style... you could play a double BPD w/more direct passing PIs who will actually launch balls from your defensive third.

In my experience, the only player who launches passes from my defense to our TF and use him as an outlet, is the GK when instructed to.

These are the forward passes my CBs. High tempo, very direct, both BPD, both with tries long range passes trait.

This is my GK in comparison.

I replayed the match and changed roles to NCB. The passing was dramatically more direct but I watched every single long pass and every single pass from CB to striker was into space between the opposing CB and FB. Either that or to a winger that wandered more centrally.

Again, GK for comparison. This works much much better, even if he gets confused which striker to pass to sometimes.

[lied90]

Also, here is from the following match, 2-0 win vs Spurs.

These are all the long passes my TF received (successfully). All except one from the GK, the one outlier is a pass into space from the fullback.

 

[NineCloudNine]

16 hours ago, lied90 said:

Can you see from the analytics page that they send diagonal long passes from below the midfield line?

 

I looked at this from a save where both my WBs were leading the league crossing stats and … no, not very often. Very few long balls from our own half. I think most of those I did see were clearances. My WBs do cross ‘early’, but that means the first half of the opponents’ half, like the diagram in the instructions implies.

[lied90]

Out of curiosity I went back to FM12.

Managed Stoke and viewed a fuil match.

FB instructions:

The choices made by the FBs was almost identical to FM24. It's just pass after pass after pass to the winger or side ways passes to the CB. They never cross/play diagonals unless they cross the halfway line. Leads me to believe that FBs simply don't have the option to play long diagonals from their own half, and they never have in FM?