Guidance Needed - Leeds United (First Season)

Danarouso · January 22, 2023

Hello everyone.

I have started as Leeds in my first season.

Although we currently sit 11th after 10 games played, which I am happy with, I still feel that my tactic could be better refined.

The vision for this tactic is to build around the DLP - who is usually Marc Roca. He would have an array of options to pass to, and in general, we have attacking threats in and around the box.

Another aspect is quickly winning the ball back by pressing very high and getting stuck in, so we are aggressive with our press and winning the ball back. This has worked pretty well, however I am considering lowering it to standard and just setting player instructions. This is because our players can be pulled out of position - and in the case of playing Man Utd - we were badly beaten after a conceding three late goals despite being competitive in the main. Perhaps it will work better on a player instruction basis.

One of the biggest concerns has actually been scoring goals. As you can see in my results, there is a lot of draws and 1-0 victories. Although that is OK, I feel that it is only a matter of time where the tide might turn against us. By player trait, Bamford drops deep. I'm wondering if this is affecting his relationship with Aaronson? I wondered if it would be a case of having to drop Aaronson/the AMC, but surely not? I've also tried putting Rodrigo up front but he has been bang out of form, so that hasn't helped much.

One final concern is the lack of productivity from Rasmus Kristensen. Even though his on-pitch relationship with Harrison shows up as good, he is averaging 6.52 after 9 games with zero goal/assist contribution. I'm curious if switching him to either FB (A) or WB (S) will help this situation, bearing in mind that he has Tyler Adams to cover him on that side.

I would really appreciate the community's advice/guidance on this situation.

Thank you.

Skywalk3r83 · January 22, 2023

Change the left FB to a WB.

Higher tempo, you're asking your players to counter.

Vizzini · January 22, 2023

All of your players in the AM-Strata is being asked to push forward. If you change your IF-S to an IW-S and your right back to a FB-A it will be more balanced.

Yisz · January 22, 2023

3 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Change the left FB to a WB.

Higher tempo, you're asking your players to counter.

How is he asking his players to counter?

just curious as I’m learning tactically :-)

edit: apart from the instruction to counter obviously, but that’s nothing to do with the tempo as counter is an instruction that’s either triggered as to which every other instruction is thrown out the door or not

Edited January 22, 2023 by Yisz
Clarification

Danarouso · January 22, 2023

1 hour ago, Vizzini said:

All of your players in the AM-Strata is being asked to push forward. If you change your IF-S to an IW-S and your right back to a FB-A it will be more balanced.

Hello. Thanks for your reply and suggestions.

Could you tell me why my current set-up on the right side is imbalanced and why Kristensen could be underperforming so badly? It will be useful to learn for future reference.

Danarouso · January 22, 2023

2 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Change the left FB to a WB.

Higher tempo, you're asking your players to counter.

Hello. Thanks for your reply and suggestions.

Can I ask why you suggested switching the LB to a WB role? That is something I hadn't considered.

Re: the tempo, that makes sense. I may take counter off altogether. My concern was that if we go on a higher tempo, the quality of chances might lessen and both full-backs would be bypassed. What do you think? Maybe I should alter this depending on the opposition.

Vizzini · January 23, 2023

23 hours ago, Danarouso said:

Hello. Thanks for your reply and suggestions.

Could you tell me why my current set-up on the right side is imbalanced and why Kristensen could be underperforming so badly? It will be useful to learn for future reference.

Because the gap between them is to big with the advanced player pushed more forward while the fb is more careful. If the FB overlaps you are creating an overload, making space for the IF to exploit. Risk Vs reward.

Danarouso · January 23, 2023

Since applying the advice of @Vizzini and @Skywalk3r83, our fortunes have improved a lot. Thanks to both of you.

It started badly with a home drubbing by Arsenal, but soon improved. The Liverpool result was obviously the biggest shock. We rode our luck for sure.

At home, I've applied the lower tempo and took off counter. When we are the underdogs, I've played a higher tempo with counter on. It's worked so far and we are in a more comfortable league position. Rasmus Kristensen has also started to perform better since the change in roles.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Danarouso

Skywalk3r83 · January 25, 2023

Nice😃👌🏻👍🏻

Cloud9 · January 27, 2023

On 22/01/2023 at 01:48, Danarouso said:

Hello everyone.

I have started as Leeds in my first season.

Although we currently sit 11th after 10 games played, which I am happy with, I still feel that my tactic could be better refined.

The vision for this tactic is to build around the DLP - who is usually Marc Roca. He would have an array of options to pass to, and in general, we have attacking threats in and around the box.

Another aspect is quickly winning the ball back by pressing very high and getting stuck in, so we are aggressive with our press and winning the ball back. This has worked pretty well, however I am considering lowering it to standard and just setting player instructions. This is because our players can be pulled out of position - and in the case of playing Man Utd - we were badly beaten after a conceding three late goals despite being competitive in the main. Perhaps it will work better on a player instruction basis.

One of the biggest concerns has actually been scoring goals. As you can see in my results, there is a lot of draws and 1-0 victories. Although that is OK, I feel that it is only a matter of time where the tide might turn against us. By player trait, Bamford drops deep. I'm wondering if this is affecting his relationship with Aaronson? I wondered if it would be a case of having to drop Aaronson/the AMC, but surely not? I've also tried putting Rodrigo up front but he has been bang out of form, so that hasn't helped much.

One final concern is the lack of productivity from Rasmus Kristensen. Even though his on-pitch relationship with Harrison shows up as good, he is averaging 6.52 after 9 games with zero goal/assist contribution. I'm curious if switching him to either FB (A) or WB (S) will help this situation, bearing in mind that he has Tyler Adams to cover him on that side.

I would really appreciate the community's advice/guidance on this situation.

Thank you.

Couple things I see in the tactics.

Like people already said, two fullbacks on defensive duties is a recipe for trouble. IWB will tuck into the midfield or a wb will provide you some punch going forward.
Tempo up
BWM, even on defend, isn't a holding midfielder. He's set to attack everyone and will get pulled out of position. Setting the DLP to defend will give you a holding player which can be key in a double pivot. They've also reworked double pivots so try dropping the pair into the DM positions.
Go w a sweeper keeper
Two IF forwards are the goalscoring threats, try moving the central forward to a supporting role (if you want to keep the attacking forward, go w/an inverted winger or winger on support).
I'd only play out from the back if one of your central defenders is a BPD
Leave stuck in off. utilize for only certain roles/periods of the match, you'll get a ton of red cards and penalties conceded with it on. In front foot pressing football you should look for who is weak in their team (first touch, anticipation, composure, concentration, weak physically) and press and tackle him hard). Set up a pressing trap around him specifically, play down his side, beat him up get the ball.

If you're worried about Bamford dropping deep, try a Shadow Striker in the hole. He'll benefit from that movement and rush into the strikers position.

Might want to make some tactical defensive switches for away from home/against bigger sides. You're super attacking which is very Leeds but you also might get killed just like Leeds IRL.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cloud9

Lordluap · January 27, 2023

You mention players being pulled out of position.

Your Midfield is a Playmakers and Ball Winning Midfielder - who will chase around looking to close down. Does the DLP give enough defensive/positional coverage for this?

Danarouso · January 28, 2023

On 27/01/2023 at 05:48, Cloud9 said:

Couple things I see in the tactics.

Like people already said, two fullbacks on defensive duties is a recipe for trouble. IWB will tuck into the midfield or a wb will provide you some punch going forward.

Tempo up

BWM, even on defend, isn't a holding midfielder. He's set to attack everyone and will get pulled out of position. Setting the DLP to defend will give you a holding player which can be key in a double pivot. They've also reworked double pivots so try dropping the pair into the DM positions.

Go w a sweeper keeper

Two IF forwards are the goalscoring threats, try moving the central forward to a supporting role (if you want to keep the attacking forward, go w/an inverted winger or winger on support).

I'd only play out from the back if one of your central defenders is a BPD

Leave stuck in off. utilize for only certain roles/periods of the match, you'll get a ton of red cards and penalties conceded with it on. In front foot pressing football you should look for who is weak in their team (first touch, anticipation, composure, concentration, weak physically) and press and tackle him hard). Set up a pressing trap around him specifically, play down his side, beat him up get the ball.

If you're worried about Bamford dropping deep, try a Shadow Striker in the hole. He'll benefit from that movement and rush into the strikers position.

Might want to make some tactical defensive switches for away from home/against bigger sides. You're super attacking which is very Leeds but you also might get killed just like Leeds IRL.

Hello @Cloud9. Thank you for your detailed response!

So when you say the two fullbacks both being FB(S) is a recipe for trouble, I assume that is because of a lack of outlet on the flanks? So, for example on support, both of the FBs would only go up to the halfway point of the pitch as the tactic was in my initial screenshot? And with there being two IFs, I guess that they would already be too advanced and/or attack-minded to consider playing the ball back to them to use them as an outlet?

Thank you for the information on the double pivots. I'm thinking that this could work better, especially for Roca as his natural inclination is to drop deep. Hopefully this will allow him to have a better view of the pitch and ping good plays. Roca was a big reason on why I had the tempo low, so he could take the time to dictate the game. Likewise, other players could get in position rather than be bypassed. In hindsight, this was probably ill-advised after the revelation on the full-backs. Against teams equal to us or lesser than us, I planned to take counter off and leave low tempo on.

Perhaps Adams on anchor man and Roca on DLP(S) would work better?

I think with the play out of defence, I was worried that Roca would be bypassed in favour of a hoof up the field or something like that. Maybe the 'Distribute to Playmaker' instruction would prevent that, but I wanted to make sure.

As for using the sweeper keeper role, I had a concern that Meslier wouldn't be quick enough. I believe his acceleration is 9. What do you think this would be useful for as it relates to the tactic? I will admit I have never considered this role too much before. I probably should from now on.

Do you have any tips for the tactical defensive switches for the away games/stronger teams? It would be appreciated. Thanks again.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Danarouso

Cloud9 · January 28, 2023

2 hours ago, Danarouso said:

Hello @Cloud9. Thank you for your detailed response!

So when you say the two fullbacks both being FB(S) is a recipe for trouble, I assume that is because of a lack of outlet on the flanks? So, for example on support, both of the FBs would only go up to the halfway point of the pitch as the tactic was in my initial screenshot? And with there being two IFs, I guess that they would already be too advanced and/or attack-minded to consider playing the ball back to them to use them as an outlet?

Thank you for the information on the double pivots. I'm thinking that this could work better, especially for Roca as his natural inclination is to drop deep. Hopefully this will allow him to have a better view of the pitch and ping good plays. Roca was a big reason on why I had the tempo low, so he could take the time to dictate the game. Likewise, other players could get in position rather than be bypassed. In hindsight, this was probably ill-advised after the revelation on the full-backs. Against teams equal to us or lesser than us, I planned to take counter off and leave low tempo on.

Perhaps Adams on anchor man and Roca on DLP(S) would work better?

I think with the play out of defence, I was worried that Roca would be bypassed in favour of a hoof up the field or something like that. Maybe the 'Distribute to Playmaker' instruction would prevent that, but I wanted to make sure.

As for using the sweeper keeper role, I had a concern that Meslier wouldn't be quick enough. I believe his acceleration is 9. What do you think this would be useful for as it relates to the tactic? I will admit I have never considered this role too much before. I probably should from now on.

Do you have any tips for the tactical defensive switches for the away games/stronger teams? It would be appreciated. Thanks again.

Yep, ideally you want at least one flank with the ability to run forward and provide assistance in transition. A fullback (a) provides defense and attack, where as a wingback (s) pairs well and provide good service to the IF in front.

I think it boils down to transitions, with two defensive fullbacks, a gk, no BPD, and a BWM, no one in your defensive unit is being asked to progress the ball, where as everyone in the front line is being asked to rush forward when you win it. The team sole creative outlet/transitional player is the DLP at the moment.

What's more the attacking group won't track back, IF have almost 0 defensive duty as doe an am (a). The PF is on (a) a role. I think this pushes the two groups farther apart, making the transition difficult again.

That pivot you suggest could work! Although you might want to try Adams as a Halfback for your attacking football. He'll provide the aggressive cover out of possession and hold position, in possession he'll drop between the centerbacks, sending the fullbacks forward. Adams looks like he's got the mental/technical attributes for the ball playing parts of that role as well. That would suit your play out of the defense style a bit more.

On the SK I'd just ask Meslier to play on SK (d), you're playing front foot football and they'll be danger in behind your backline when your pressing that he can try to mop up. Meslier has decent distribution that role will take advantage of as well. The speed isn't ideal but you can ask him to work on it in individual training, I think the chances you'll allow (or won't prevent) more dangerous chances w a GK outweigh him being slow.

Against big teams it can be difficult in the 4-2-3-1, since you're set up to take the game to them. You could experiment with an alternate 4-3-3 formation for difficult games, or you could just make minor tweaks to your existing formation. If it's the minor tweaks, I'd suggest moving IF to IW (more defensive cover), switching a duty or two from (a) to (s), moving the line of engagement to medium and defensive line to medium, and turning off trigger press.

On a side note Strujick has the technical ability to play as a BPD, which could really help you in transition.

Hope some of that is helpful

Danarouso · January 29, 2023

22 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Yep, ideally you want at least one flank with the ability to run forward and provide assistance in transition. A fullback (a) provides defense and attack, where as a wingback (s) pairs well and provide good service to the IF in front.

I think it boils down to transitions, with two defensive fullbacks, a gk, no BPD, and a BWM, no one in your defensive unit is being asked to progress the ball, where as everyone in the front line is being asked to rush forward when you win it. The team sole creative outlet/transitional player is the DLP at the moment.

What's more the attacking group won't track back, IF have almost 0 defensive duty as doe an am (a). The PF is on (a) a role. I think this pushes the two groups farther apart, making the transition difficult again.

That pivot you suggest could work! Although you might want to try Adams as a Halfback for your attacking football. He'll provide the aggressive cover out of possession and hold position, in possession he'll drop between the centerbacks, sending the fullbacks forward. Adams looks like he's got the mental/technical attributes for the ball playing parts of that role as well. That would suit your play out of the defense style a bit more.

On the SK I'd just ask Meslier to play on SK (d), you're playing front foot football and they'll be danger in behind your backline when your pressing that he can try to mop up. Meslier has decent distribution that role will take advantage of as well. The speed isn't ideal but you can ask him to work on it in individual training, I think the chances you'll allow (or won't prevent) more dangerous chances w a GK outweigh him being slow.

Against big teams it can be difficult in the 4-2-3-1, since you're set up to take the game to them. You could experiment with an alternate 4-3-3 formation for difficult games, or you could just make minor tweaks to your existing formation. If it's the minor tweaks, I'd suggest moving IF to IW (more defensive cover), switching a duty or two from (a) to (s), moving the line of engagement to medium and defensive line to medium, and turning off trigger press.

On a side note Strujick has the technical ability to play as a BPD, which could really help you in transition.

Hope some of that is helpful

This is very helpful. I appreciate the explanations and advice - its very much appreciated.

I tried this as a counter-attacking tactic away at Arsenal and got absolutely smashed 3-0. We never looked like scoring or doing anything meaningful with the ball when we had it (67%-33% possession in favour of them). I assume it is another tactical fault, or should I simply accept that there's some games where we will lose in this manner? I think not because this didn't feel sustainable in any way.

Strujik and Koch had another poor game together and now the 'don't play well together' line has finally appeared. Although that didn't help, I still don't think this tactic is sustainable due to the lack of productivity.

sonnevillejr · January 29, 2023

2 hours ago, Danarouso said:

This is very helpful. I appreciate the explanations and advice - its very much appreciated.

I tried this as a counter-attacking tactic away at Arsenal and got absolutely smashed 3-0. We never looked like scoring or doing anything meaningful with the ball when we had it (67%-33% possession in favour of them). I assume it is another tactical fault, or should I simply accept that there's some games where we will lose in this manner? I think not because this didn't feel sustainable in any way.

Strujik and Koch had another poor game together and now the 'don't play well together' line has finally appeared. Although that didn't help, I still don't think this tactic is sustainable due to the lack of productivity.

You play with 3 DMs and all of them are asked to hold their position, you'll have a really big gap between them and your striker. Try to get back to more common formations and decide which style of play you wish to use. For example, if you wish to play counter-attacking football, you'll need players who attack the space regularly (if the striker is used to link up play, you'll need more aggressive role around him such as inside forward on attack duty rather than inverted winger) and also players who will support them. In your current tactic, I can imagine your front three left without any support by the rest of the team and none of them is purely focused on scoring goals

Edited January 29, 2023 by sonnevillejr

Cloud9 · January 29, 2023

3 hours ago, Danarouso said:

This is very helpful. I appreciate the explanations and advice - its very much appreciated.

I tried this as a counter-attacking tactic away at Arsenal and got absolutely smashed 3-0. We never looked like scoring or doing anything meaningful with the ball when we had it (67%-33% possession in favour of them). I assume it is another tactical fault, or should I simply accept that there's some games where we will lose in this manner? I think not because this didn't feel sustainable in any way.

Strujik and Koch had another poor game together and now the 'don't play well together' line has finally appeared. Although that didn't help, I still don't think this tactic is sustainable due to the lack of productivity.

I think it's a bit of both, Arsenal away is the type of game where you could lose 3-0 and it's not panic stations for Leeds.

By 4-3-3 as an alternate tactic what I meant was dropping the 10 into the holding position role and keeping the two midfielders in front of him. a 4-3-3 like you've set up can work, but you need really capable attacking wingbacks for it to happen. However, If you do want to keep with the 3 DM's id recommend playing as direct and wide as your players can and switching one of your DLPS to a "space eating" role. At the moment no one's set up to do the hard running for the team.

Side note: whenever your changing formations you'll need to ease in to the team with training and friendlies (winter break can be an ideal time), it'll take a bit before the players are comfortable with a new approach.

Danarouso · January 29, 2023

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

I think it's a bit of both, Arsenal away is the type of game where you could lose 3-0 and it's not panic stations for Leeds.

By 4-3-3 as an alternate tactic what I meant was dropping the 10 into the holding position role and keeping the two midfielders in front of him. a 4-3-3 like you've set up can work, but you need really capable attacking wingbacks for it to happen. However, If you do want to keep with the 3 DM's id recommend playing as direct and wide as your players can and switching one of your DLPS to a "space eating" role. At the moment no one's set up to do the hard running for the team.

Side note: whenever your changing formations you'll need to ease in to the team with training and friendlies (winter break can be an ideal time), it'll take a bit before the players are comfortable with a new approach.

Thanks again for your advice, @Cloud9. So when you mentioned dropping the 10 into the holding role, I assume you meant Roca maybe playing DLP from a DM position and perhaps Adams and somebody else playing in front of him?

Also I'm curious as to how I would switch one of the DLPs to the 'space eating' role?

Regarding the change of formation, I thought I would try something new to try and get something at Arsenal. Of course, it failed miserably.

My 'go-to' tactic, which is pictured below, has started to experience problems as well. Our second half of the season has mainly been poor, and we are now starting to lose a lot of games again. So I've started to become worried.

I forgot to add, Kristensen should be on FB(A) here. Side note: He tends to get pretty tired towards the end of the game which I assume is down to him bombing up and down the pitch throughout the matches. I end up subbing him off or changing his role to FB(S) towards the end of the games.

Opposition instruction wise, I usually target the opposition's best CM's by pressing them and tackling them hard. I also press the oppositions wingers and try and show them on their weaker foot. I also sometimes show the opposition full-backs onto their opposite foot (I.E show their right-back onto his left foot).

One noticeable disappointment is the general performances of Luis Sinisterra.

He is meant to be one of my best players, but 1 goal and 2 assists in 19 games is a poor return.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Danarouso

Cloud9 · January 29, 2023

2 hours ago, Danarouso said:

Thanks again for your advice, @Cloud9. So when you mentioned dropping the 10 into the holding role, I assume you meant Roca maybe playing DLP from a DM position and perhaps Adams and somebody else playing in front of him?

Also I'm curious as to how I would switch one of the DLPs to the 'space eating' role?

Regarding the change of formation, I thought I would try something new to try and get something at Arsenal. Of course, it failed miserably.

My 'go-to' tactic, which is pictured below, has started to experience problems as well. Our second half of the season has mainly been poor, and we are now starting to lose a lot of games again. So I've started to become worried.

I forgot to add, Kristensen should be on FB(A) here. Side note: He tends to get pretty tired towards the end of the game which I assume is down to him bombing up and down the pitch throughout the matches. I end up subbing him off or changing his role to FB(S) towards the end of the games.

Opposition instruction wise, I usually target the opposition's best CM's by pressing them and tackling them hard. I also press the oppositions wingers and try and show them on their weaker foot. I also sometimes show the opposition full-backs onto their opposite foot (I.E show their right-back onto his left foot).

One noticeable disappointment is the general performances of Luis Sinisterra.

He is meant to be one of my best players, but 1 goal and 2 assists in 19 games is a poor return.

On space eaters there's a couple good rules of thumb.

Usually they're on support duty, (generally defend duties usually tell players to hold position, attack duties tell them to vacate them when you win possession)
the carrilero role is the textbook example of a space eater position for me but you do it from any position on a "blank role" (AM, CM, DM for example) and then go into their PI's and adjust them from their. The players attributes will be key as well (even if not highlighted) you'll want him to have high work rate, teamwork, stamina, natural fitness, and decent mentals. I personally look for them to have decent tackling and strength as well. Dario Essugo (wonderkid dm on this fm) is a good template for what I look for in this mold of player.
If you're playing with a halfback you can also get away without a playmaker in the starting 11, he will operate in a similar role regardless (especially if he already has "dictate tempo" "try killer ballers" as traits). Since you're using fairly attacking fullbacks/wingsbacks, BPD, and HB you have enough creative options where you could drop the DLP entirely.

On Sinistera he looks better suited to an Inverted Winger (a) than an IF, He's got the attribute spread to be a 1v1 specialist (speed, agile, flair, and dribbling). He's got poor passing which is something you might need to work around. Try him when your the underdog in matches, his pace and skill will give you a real threat on the break, esp if you play "wider" where he'll have more space to operate.

His "balanced" personality is a bit of a red flag, just check to make sure he's not "inconsistent" in the coach report. If he is, sell him.

If you're on a losing streak, make sure you keep the moral and team cohesion high. The go to tactic looks strong, might want to try playing more direct (depending on how skilled your players are technically). Tactics are cool but keeping the players happy is the biggest part of a team winning.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Cloud9

Danarouso · January 30, 2023

7 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

On space eaters there's a couple good rules of thumb.

Usually they're on support duty, (generally defend duties usually tell players to hold position, attack duties tell them to vacate them when you win possession)

the carrilero role is the textbook example of a space eater position for me but you do it from any position on a "blank role" (AM, CM, DM for example) and then go into their PI's and adjust them from their. The players attributes will be key as well (even if not highlighted) you'll want him to have high work rate, teamwork, stamina, natural fitness, and decent mentals. I personally look for them to have decent tackling and strength as well. Dario Essugo (wonderkid dm on this fm) is a good template for what I look for in this mold of player.

If you're playing with a halfback you can also get away without a playmaker in the starting 11, he will operate in a similar role regardless (especially if he already has "dictate tempo" "try killer ballers" as traits). Since you're using fairly attacking fullbacks/wingsbacks, BPD, and HB you have enough creative options where you could drop the DLP entirely.

On Sinistera he looks better suited to an Inverted Winger (a) than an IF, He's got the attribute spread to be a 1v1 specialist (speed, agile, flair, and dribbling). He's got poor passing which is something you might need to work around. Try him when your the underdog in matches, his pace and skill will give you a real threat on the break, esp if you play "wider" where he'll have more space to operate.

His "balanced" personality is a bit of a red flag, just check to make sure he's not "inconsistent" in the coach report. If he is, sell him.

If you're on a losing streak, make sure you keep the moral and team cohesion high. The go to tactic looks strong, might want to try playing more direct (depending on how skilled your players are technically). Tactics are cool but keeping the players happy is the biggest part of a team winning.

Thank you for the explanation on space eaters. So when we say ‘space eater’, what exactly do we mean by this? I assume it’s the player that takes advantage of vacated space left behind by the opposition? Unfortunately, Google didn’t provide any results when I searched.

I’m gonna take your advice on the Sinisterra situation. When I played as Leeds on another save, my plan was to create some overloads for him so he had those 1v1 situations you speak of. But I could never do it - I assume his opposite winger would have needed ‘switch ball to opposite flank’ trait. But since his passing was around 10/11, he couldn’t be taught.

Could you tell me why Sinisterra having a ‘balanced’ personality would affect things so much? As for him being inconsistent, I don’t think he is, thankfully.

Thanks for the tip on morale! It has taken a hit because Luke Ayling - a team leader - wanted to play more and I wouldn’t let him. It hurt the morale a lot more than I thought it would, which is annoying…

Cloud9 · January 30, 2023

43 minutes ago, Danarouso said:

Thank you for the explanation on space eaters. So when we say ‘space eater’, what exactly do we mean by this? I assume it’s the player that takes advantage of vacated space left behind by the opposition? Unfortunately, Google didn’t provide any results when I searched.

I’m gonna take your advice on the Sinisterra situation. When I played as Leeds on another save, my plan was to create some overloads for him so he had those 1v1 situations you speak of. But I could never do it - I assume his opposite winger would have needed ‘switch ball to opposite flank’ trait. But since his passing was around 10/11, he couldn’t be taught.

Could you tell me why Sinisterra having a ‘balanced’ personality would affect things so much? As for him being inconsistent, I don’t think he is, thankfully.

Thanks for the tip on morale! It has taken a hit because Luke Ayling - a team leader - wanted to play more and I wouldn’t let him. It hurt the morale a lot more than I thought it would, which is annoying…

"Space eater" for me just means a player I'm asking to do a lot of the hard work for the team and run a lot. I would say the spaces I'm referring to are spaces left in your own formation rather than the opponents. I think it's a role that gets overlooked when a team is getting put together. People want exciting players, but you'll always need a guy who will run himself into the ground for the team. Usually they're not the best at anything but they are essential (like a Rodrigo de Paul for Argentina if you watched the World Cup).

On Sinisterra, he's a player who can take advantage of vacated space in the opponents formation. You could try out moving your attacking width "wider" to isolate him more with his fullback and take advantage of his pace. A word of caution though: If the other players in your team aren't quick enough or skilled enough, playing wide can be difficult. I believe you can also ask an IW to stay wider in their PI's? I haven't tried that out though so I'm not sure how successfully that would function.

Here's a personality guide for what each players personality means: https://www.fmscout.com/a-guide-to-player-personalities-football-manager.html

Balanced personalities can be (not always) one of the worst in the game for player's that are real players. It means SI either doesn't know their personality, or knows and doesn't want to say because of defamation. Professionalism and Pressure are the two hidden personalities I prioritize, with Professionalism being by far the most important of the list.

Yisz · January 30, 2023

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

On space eaters there's a couple good rules of thumb.

Usually they're on support duty, (generally defend duties usually tell players to hold position, attack duties tell them to vacate them when you win possession)

the carrilero role is the textbook example of a space eater position for me but you do it from any position on a "blank role" (AM, CM, DM for example) and then go into their PI's and adjust them from their. The players attributes will be key as well (even if not highlighted) you'll want him to have high work rate, teamwork, stamina, natural fitness, and decent mentals. I personally look for them to have decent tackling and strength as well. Dario Essugo (wonderkid dm on this fm) is a good template for what I look for in this mold of player.

If you're playing with a halfback you can also get away without a playmaker in the starting 11, he will operate in a similar role regardless (especially if he already has "dictate tempo" "try killer ballers" as traits). Since you're using fairly attacking fullbacks/wingsbacks, BPD, and HB you have enough creative options where you could drop the DLP entirely.

On Sinistera he looks better suited to an Inverted Winger (a) than an IF, He's got the attribute spread to be a 1v1 specialist (speed, agile, flair, and dribbling). He's got poor passing which is something you might need to work around. Try him when your the underdog in matches, his pace and skill will give you a real threat on the break, esp if you play "wider" where he'll have more space to operate.

His "balanced" personality is a bit of a red flag, just check to make sure he's not "inconsistent" in the coach report. If he is, sell him.

If you're on a losing streak, make sure you keep the moral and team cohesion high. The go to tactic looks strong, might want to try playing more direct (depending on how skilled your players are technically). Tactics are cool but keeping the players happy is the biggest part of a team winning.

Could you tell me why he’s better suited to being an IW-A instead of an IF-A? I can’t for the life of me tell the differences between these two roles, even after watching videos which tell the differences as they’re so alike.

F.e. i’d play him as an IF-A because he’s a good dribbler and has alright finishing and OTB. His vision and passing for me are too bad to consider him an IW-A and that’s probably where I’m mistaken if I assume the IW-A will bring others into play way more and thus needing better passing and vision than an IF?

Cloud9 · January 30, 2023

6 hours ago, Yisz said:

Could you tell me why he’s better suited to being an IW-A instead of an IF-A? I can’t for the life of me tell the differences between these two roles, even after watching videos which tell the differences as they’re so alike.

F.e. i’d play him as an IF-A because he’s a good dribbler and has alright finishing and OTB. His vision and passing for me are too bad to consider him an IW-A and that’s probably where I’m mistaken if I assume the IW-A will bring others into play way more and thus needing better passing and vision than an IF?

Sure, IW are always more team oriented in their contribution than an IF, who is basically a forward you've stuck out wide and is going to look to score goals. IW tend to be more involved in the build up.

The IF is going to drift inside and make a run to score himself, so if you have superb wingbacks or a strong playmaker in midfield they can provide the creative presence youre sacrificing. In general I'd want them to have strong mental attributes, particularly in off the ball and composure.

Sinisterra has strong crossing which you'd neglect as an IF. The key thing for me is that he is not a great player, but he has attributes in dribbling, flair, pace, agility, acceleration to beat any fullback when he takes them on and that's what you want him to do. Sinisterra will probably need a PI telling him to pass shorter since it's the weakest part of his game.

I'd rather have him utilizing his best skill creating overloads having beat a man than trying to fashion them for himself, particularly with fairly average mentals.

Sidenote: In this mold (distilling him down to his 1v1 ability) he could also function quite well as a winger (a) on the right hand side of the pitch, if you tell him to shoot more often.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Cloud9

Danarouso · January 31, 2023

On 30/01/2023 at 18:09, Cloud9 said:

Sure, IW are always more team oriented in their contribution than an IF, who is basically a forward you've stuck out wide and is going to look to score goals. IW tend to be more involved in the build up.

The IF is going to drift inside and make a run to score himself, so if you have superb wingbacks or a strong playmaker in midfield they can provide the creative presence youre sacrificing. In general I'd want them to have strong mental attributes, particularly in off the ball and composure.

Sinisterra has strong crossing which you'd neglect as an IF. The key thing for me is that he is not a great player, but he has attributes in dribbling, flair, pace, agility, acceleration to beat any fullback when he takes them on and that's what you want him to do. Sinisterra will probably need a PI telling him to pass shorter since it's the weakest part of his game.

I'd rather have him utilizing his best skill creating overloads having beat a man than trying to fashion them for himself, particularly with fairly average mentals.

Sidenote: In this mold (distilling him down to his 1v1 ability) he could also function quite well as a winger (a) on the right hand side of the pitch, if you tell him to shoot more often.

Thank you once again for your helpful advice, @Cloud9.

On your sidenote, you mentioned that he would function quite well on the right hand side as a Winger (A) as well as telling him to shoot more often. Could you tell me your thinking behind this? I assume it was also said with my current tactic in mind. It's good to get some insight on your thinking.

Cloud9 · February 1, 2023

12 hours ago, Danarouso said:

Thank you once again for your helpful advice, @Cloud9.

On your sidenote, you mentioned that he would function quite well on the right hand side as a Winger (A) as well as telling him to shoot more often. Could you tell me your thinking behind this? I assume it was also said with my current tactic in mind. It's good to get some insight on your thinking.

Hope the save is going well,

Sure thing, I do think Sinisterra will still be best deployed as a IW on the left hand side, because of his good mix of shooting/crossing and decent mentals. His really poor passing ability/vision (and his mentals are okay, not great) could be an issue so if he's not working out there for you and getting low match ratings you can try him as the W(a) on the right hand side. It's a way of sacrificing other stats to have a player entirely focused on his ability to beat the man and find the cross (which he can definitely do).

Basically he won't be asked to make any decisions, make any passes, because you're telling him exactly what you want him to do. Sinisterra looks well rounded enough to play the IW role just fine, so I'd be hesitant to pigeon hole into the position--- but the W (a) is an option you can try out for him if things still feel off with him (if you go for it just don't play a WB in behind).

Keep in mind that the space he'd be cutting into as the IW/IF role will need to be occupied by someone else, as he'll going wide instead-- so you might need to have a player in your tactic move into that vacated space.

Danarouso · February 1, 2023

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Hope the save is going well,

Sure thing, I do think Sinisterra will still be best deployed as a IW on the left hand side, because of his good mix of shooting/crossing and decent mentals. His really poor passing ability/vision (and his mentals are okay, not great) could be an issue so if he's not working out there for you and getting low match ratings you can try him as the W(a) on the right hand side. It's a way of sacrificing other stats to have a player entirely focused on his ability to beat the man and find the cross (which he can definitely do).

Basically he won't be asked to make any decisions, make any passes, because you're telling him exactly what you want him to do. Sinisterra looks well rounded enough to play the IW role just fine, so I'd be hesitant to pigeon hole into the position--- but the W (a) is an option you can try out for him if things still feel off with him (if you go for it just don't play a WB in behind).

Keep in mind that the space he'd be cutting into as the IW/IF role will need to be occupied by someone else, as he'll going wide instead-- so you might need to have a player in your tactic move into that vacated space.

Hello @Cloud9. Thank you for the well wishes, I hope your save is going well too. Perhaps you are getting the Owls back in the promised land? As for mine, I haven't had much time to play due to work commitments. Instead, I've been figuring out a new tactic to press ahead with after seeking the very helpful advice of the likes of yourself. I've played FM for over a decade, but I find that this is now a thinking game more than ever. And I worry that I might get left behind but if I don't adapt to it! I want to look back on this thread soon and think, 'Wow, I've come a long way since then!' (tactically).

Back to my season, we sit 13th, around 12 points above 18th with ten games remaining. But we have entered a patch of worrying form, which is why I want to make some adjustments. For example, the two starting CBs - Koch and Strujik - are averaging like 6.45 and 6.56 in their past 5 games. That is without making any adjustments to the defence. It's not just them, but the likes of Bamford that have also gone bang out of form. So I want to try and come up with a new tactic to try and end the season on a high, hopefully bringing the best out of certain individuals such as the aforementioned bunch, as well as Sinisterra. We've got an FA Cup semi-final against Liverpool also.

Thank you for the suggestions on Sinisterra and what may benefit him. When you mentioned not playing a wing-back behind him if he's playing as a W(a), I assume this is because of how dangerous that is. From what I've learnt, the W(a) will always be in advanced positions when we have the ball, and even out of the ball, he will be quite distanced from our midfield and our full-back/wing-back? I remember when I had a similar set up to that a few FM's ago. But even worse, I had a B2B midfielder on that side of the pitch. So that side was very vulnerable indeed given the roaming nature of the B2B midfielder.

I had a few additional questions, if you have the time to answer of course.

When playing a direct counter attacking tactic, how difficult is it for the wingbacks/full-backs to be utilised, especially if they have two wingers in front of them? I'm thinking that they could be bypassed. I mean, a team that wants to play the ball fast into the vacant spaces will be more inclined to play the ball to the wingers, so a wing-back/full-back wouldn't be an outlet to cross into the box. I could be wrong on this, but curious for your opinion either way.
Do you think it could be worth asking Rasmus Kristensen to cross early? He is not the quickest of full-backs (I believe his pace is 14 and his acceleration is 12). This could utilise his crossing more? I guess that he wouldn't be in the best positions when crossing, though.

Cloud9 · February 3, 2023

On 01/02/2023 at 13:42, Danarouso said:

Hello @Cloud9. Thank you for the well wishes, I hope your save is going well too. Perhaps you are getting the Owls back in the promised land? As for mine, I haven't had much time to play due to work commitments. Instead, I've been figuring out a new tactic to press ahead with after seeking the very helpful advice of the likes of yourself. I've played FM for over a decade, but I find that this is now a thinking game more than ever. And I worry that I might get left behind but if I don't adapt to it! I want to look back on this thread soon and think, 'Wow, I've come a long way since then!' (tactically).

Back to my season, we sit 13th, around 12 points above 18th with ten games remaining. But we have entered a patch of worrying form, which is why I want to make some adjustments. For example, the two starting CBs - Koch and Strujik - are averaging like 6.45 and 6.56 in their past 5 games. That is without making any adjustments to the defence. It's not just them, but the likes of Bamford that have also gone bang out of form. So I want to try and come up with a new tactic to try and end the season on a high, hopefully bringing the best out of certain individuals such as the aforementioned bunch, as well as Sinisterra. We've got an FA Cup semi-final against Liverpool also.

Thank you for the suggestions on Sinisterra and what may benefit him. When you mentioned not playing a wing-back behind him if he's playing as a W(a), I assume this is because of how dangerous that is. From what I've learnt, the W(a) will always be in advanced positions when we have the ball, and even out of the ball, he will be quite distanced from our midfield and our full-back/wing-back? I remember when I had a similar set up to that a few FM's ago. But even worse, I had a B2B midfielder on that side of the pitch. So that side was very vulnerable indeed given the roaming nature of the B2B midfielder.

I had a few additional questions, if you have the time to answer of course.

When playing a direct counter attacking tactic, how difficult is it for the wingbacks/full-backs to be utilised, especially if they have two wingers in front of them? I'm thinking that they could be bypassed. I mean, a team that wants to play the ball fast into the vacant spaces will be more inclined to play the ball to the wingers, so a wing-back/full-back wouldn't be an outlet to cross into the box. I could be wrong on this, but curious for your opinion either way.

Do you think it could be worth asking Rasmus Kristensen to cross early? He is not the quickest of full-backs (I believe his pace is 14 and his acceleration is 12). This could utilise his crossing more? I guess that he wouldn't be in the best positions when crossing, though.

Yes! We rise! Although after such a busy transfer window IRL I'm taking a little hiatus before going again with the Winter Update. Been tinkering with a 3-4-2-1 at the moment which is new and challenging.

I wouldn't worry too much about CB low ratings, one of the reasons I'm waiting is that there were some ME issues around CBs. They released a patch which helped but I'm hoping some of the issues will be cleaned up with the Winer Update (such as defenders dealing with balls played in the air). Anyways a low CB rating might be your players (Leeds don't have great centerbacks IRL) but it could also be a carry over of the ME problems from earlier.
Yea, on WB's they tend to attack the same space that a W attacks (out wide) so they'd get in each others way. Anti chemistry in the partnership. Usually I'd only play a wingback with an IF or IW since those roles be cutting inside. I'm not sure on the build up play question, I think that would depend on how direct your playing, but I don't think that part of it would be a problem
Checked out Rasmus Kristensen's stats, looks ideal to be asked to cross early (Ie immobile and superb crossing like you mention). Playing with a TF (two striker combos are really effective in the game) could work great with Kristensen hitting it early as well.

You mentioned your team is in a bit of a slump and looking for a different tactic, not sure if this is helpful but here's the tactic I utilized with my Wednesday squad designed to hit teams hard on the break.

If your team isn't great with the ball this is a setup for absorbing pressure and transitioning the ball super quick up the pitch (because we are kicking the ball all the way up to Muriqi or over the top into space all the time). It's a tactic which gives the Mezzala (a) a license to kill with the space he's asked to run in. I brought in Hugo Felix from Benfica for 180k and he was shortlisted for the golden boy award the year we scraped by relegation. He's not two footed which would be ideal for the position but his attribute distribution is more or less what that position needs to work in the tactic.

On a side note, I can't recommend enough scouting Benfica in your save. They've got financial difficulties, talented youth by the dozen, but most importantly they've got good personalities. I picked up Rafael Luis from them to play the DM position for 900k when I was in the Championship and he's a model citizen. Literal gold mine.

Anyways, I think this tactic worked so well for me because each player in the setup had a clear role to get the result needed and helped us punch up against bigger sides.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Cloud9

Danarouso · February 5, 2023

On 03/02/2023 at 01:34, Cloud9 said:

Yes! We rise! Although after such a busy transfer window IRL I'm taking a little hiatus before going again with the Winter Update. Been tinkering with a 3-4-2-1 at the moment which is new and challenging.

I wouldn't worry too much about CB low ratings, one of the reasons I'm waiting is that there were some ME issues around CBs. They released a patch which helped but I'm hoping some of the issues will be cleaned up with the Winer Update (such as defenders dealing with balls played in the air). Anyways a low CB rating might be your players (Leeds don't have great centerbacks IRL) but it could also be a carry over of the ME problems from earlier.

Yea, on WB's they tend to attack the same space that a W attacks (out wide) so they'd get in each others way. Anti chemistry in the partnership. Usually I'd only play a wingback with an IF or IW since those roles be cutting inside. I'm not sure on the build up play question, I think that would depend on how direct your playing, but I don't think that part of it would be a problem

Checked out Rasmus Kristensen's stats, looks ideal to be asked to cross early (Ie immobile and superb crossing like you mention). Playing with a TF (two striker combos are really effective in the game) could work great with Kristensen hitting it early as well.

You mentioned your team is in a bit of a slump and looking for a different tactic, not sure if this is helpful but here's the tactic I utilized with my Wednesday squad designed to hit teams hard on the break.

If your team isn't great with the ball this is a setup for absorbing pressure and transitioning the ball super quick up the pitch (because we are kicking the ball all the way up to Muriqi or over the top into space all the time). It's a tactic which gives the Mezzala (a) a license to kill with the space he's asked to run in. I brought in Hugo Felix from Benfica for 180k and he was shortlisted for the golden boy award the year we scraped by relegation. He's not two footed which would be ideal for the position but his attribute distribution is more or less what that position needs to work in the tactic.

On a side note, I can't recommend enough scouting Benfica in your save. They've got financial difficulties, talented youth by the dozen, but most importantly they've got good personalities. I picked up Rafael Luis from them to play the DM position for 900k when I was in the Championship and he's a model citizen. Literal gold mine.

Anyways, I think this tactic worked so well for me because each player in the setup had a clear role to get the result needed and helped us punch up against bigger sides.

Hey @Cloud9, thanks for your latest pieces of advice!

The CB bug/ME issue is annoying. So is that along the lines of 5'8" strikers beating 6 foot-plus centre-backs in the air on a consistent basis? I can't say I've noticed it too much but it probably does happen...

The only problem about us playing a TF is that I don't think Leeds have somebody for it aside from maybe Bamford. It's worth keeping in mind but I feel that Kristensen will need somebody on the wing as a partner. I'm not sure he's strong enough to have a flank all to himself. I think I have seen from yourself and others that it is unwise to leave a WB/CWB on their own if they aren't a strong player in that league.

Thanks for sharing your tactic. That looks very interesting and I may well try it once I get back on FM.

I have some questions about your tactic...

What is the thinking behind CAR(S)?
How come you are playing asymmetrical?
Why do you have a winger on the left, but just the WB on his own on the right?
What is the thinking behind your out of possession instructions? (Trap Inside, Mid Block and Stop Crosses)?

It sounds like you benefitted a lot from signing Benfica players! That's amazing. You have opened up my mind on personalities, by the way. It's entered my thinking when I've been looking at potential incomings.

I assume that you managed to get Wednesday promoted to the PL and you stayed there? Did you get promoted back-to-back? I'd like to hear your journey back to the top

Cloud9 · February 6, 2023

13 hours ago, Danarouso said:

Hey @Cloud9, thanks for your latest pieces of advice!

The CB bug/ME issue is annoying. So is that along the lines of 5'8" strikers beating 6 foot-plus centre-backs in the air on a consistent basis? I can't say I've noticed it too much but it probably does happen...

The only problem about us playing a TF is that I don't think Leeds have somebody for it aside from maybe Bamford. It's worth keeping in mind but I feel that Kristensen will need somebody on the wing as a partner. I'm not sure he's strong enough to have a flank all to himself. I think I have seen from yourself and others that it is unwise to leave a WB/CWB on their own if they aren't a strong player in that league.

Thanks for sharing your tactic. That looks very interesting and I may well try it once I get back on FM.

I have some questions about your tactic...

What is the thinking behind CAR(S)?

How come you are playing asymmetrical?

Why do you have a winger on the left, but just the WB on his own on the right?

What is the thinking behind your out of possession instructions? (Trap Inside, Mid Block and Stop Crosses)?

It sounds like you benefitted a lot from signing Benfica players! That's amazing. You have opened up my mind on personalities, by the way. It's entered my thinking when I've been looking at potential incomings.

I assume that you managed to get Wednesday promoted to the PL and you stayed there? Did you get promoted back-to-back? I'd like to hear your journey back to the top

The ball in the air thing isn't necessarily around heading, difficult to describe outside of seeing it. It's more that they struggle to track the ball in the air. One thing to check if your center-backs are getting beat in the air is their jumping reach (height in itself doesn't actually have an effect on the ME).

On Kristensen I agree that'd he'd struggle on his own, mostly because he's not particularly quick. You could try leaving Firpo isolated on the left, he has a better physical profile to get into the space that would be open in front of him. I think a WB on his own can work, a CWB is more risky (due to the roam instruction) meaning he'll vacate the position entirely at times.
Any asymmetrical formation you choose to play will leave a player exposed, but you have to decide if the trade off is worth it for your system. My asymmetrical is basically a 4-3-3 where I've asked the wide right attacker to never come back and defend, instead looking to bomb on and run in behind whenever possible.

On the Tactic:

One of the reasons I enjoy playing with the TF is that it means 1. we're always a threat from set pieces 2. With a 17-18 jumping reach TF, the team has at least one advantage over a far superior opposition squad. It's a great way of punching up against better teams 3. There's tons of really cheap senior pros who you can pick up to do the job (and they can serve as great mentors to the kids coming through).
Carrilero has been one of my favorite roles in FM, since it's pretty close to a "blank" role and therefore the attributes of the player you play in the role will greatly effect how it plays. They operate like a defensive BBM who doesn't roam, doesn't go into the boxes, but will still make an occasional darting run forward (and if they've got good long shots they can score a good amount of bangers). It's a role that does a ton of running for the team, freeing up other players, I try to find someone defensively responsible and strong so if the opposition has a problem player (for example a skilled AP in midfield) I can task the Carrilero to go after him specifically all game. In essence he does the dirty work for the team.
Asymmetrical was in part due to the personnel I had and low to no budget (My Sheffield Wednesday are hopelessly in debt after almost going through administration a few years ago), but also because I've found a lot of success with a double striker system. It means you can flip the formation to target a defender you think is particularly weak, which I super. Mostly it's because it provides us with 5 very distinct avenues of attack: a transition long to the TF, over the top to the AF, out wide to the W who can take on his man 1v1, to the mezzala who benefits the most from the asymmetrical setup, and set pieces.
The Winger and the Wingback are key in that they provide width to the formation, just like the AF stretches the pitch vertically by pushing against the backline. The wingback on the right also has a ton of space to get into so I wanted a more progressive role. Stretching the pitch is very important to this direct counter attack type of play.
On the instructions: with a DM, and a very workman like Carrilero, alongside 4 rough and tough defenders I had more numbers inside to win the ball back. My defenders and gk weren't particularly tall so I wanted to avoid crosses if possible. Mid block is because I want the boys to sit deeper, but not invite too much pressure and so we can counter attack with space to run into.
It's a good tactic! Not perfect, but I really enjoy playing counter attack and trying to win cups from the off with a league 1 side. It definitely struggles if your opponent scores first, but takes advantage of your rise through the leagues. Most teams will think you suck and bring the game to you, leaving you space to exploit in behind. I've also found you need to do pretty specific recruitment, each role has very specific attributes you're looking for. But in general everyone needs to be consistent, everyone needs a decent personality, the wide players need to be quick, and almost everyone needs to be strong because we're fighting the world. I also have a soft spot for players with high aggression, high bravery, and tackling (even though okay maybe they're not the most impactful attributes).

On the Save:

Yes everything has gone very well this year! After a rocky early patch, the players doubted my leadership with no coaching badges or experience, we had to hold off a minor mutiny which very nearly saw an early dismissal. Sadly my relationship with club captain Barry Bannan never recovered and it was with great regret that we parted ways with Barry that January. We finished 3rd in the 1st division which angered fans and board alike, but were promoted in the playoffs to the Championship. We had, thankfully, bashed Sheffield United in the Steel City Derby in a chance meeting in the Cup and that's really what it's all about. A silver lining on a tumultuous season.

My second season at the helm saw the team chemistry come together and talks of mutiny were a distant past, we received automatic promotion to the premier league that year (okay 2nd place no title). Still celebrations were wild, with over 20 years passing since the barn storming owls last appearance in the top flight of English Football. I took a moment to listen to this classic:

Despite our outstanding debts of over 100m the board blessed us with a warchest of 34m to spend (I only do pounds up front transfer fees, a constraint that adds a bit of realism I enjoy).

Our recruitment was good, having prepared extensively for this moment, through um sending scouts to Benfica (and Sporting Lisbon). We brought in a 5-6 great kids our scouts had identified in our "no **** heads" transfer policy, so the relegation scrap was on! Fortunately we managed to hold on, barely finishing 17th on the last day of the season (we also got to the carabao cup final but lost despite playing a Liverpool side with 10 men). The next season, my fourth in charge, our kids came into their own and landed a champions league spot! A delightful moment, repaying the faith of our long-suffering fans (although we lost the league cup AGAIN).

But then...well, I really dislike the Swiss Format they've introduced for the champions league (I didn't realize it was different this year) so that's a big factor for why I've left the save there. Going to try to download an edit to play the Winter Update with the standard champions league implemented.

Anyways that's the journey so far!

Edited February 6, 2023 by Cloud9

Danarouso · February 6, 2023

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The ball in the air thing isn't necessarily around heading, difficult to describe outside of seeing it. It's more that they struggle to track the ball in the air. One thing to check if your center-backs are getting beat in the air is their jumping reach (height in itself doesn't actually have an effect on the ME).

On Kristensen I agree that'd he'd struggle on his own, mostly because he's not particularly quick. You could try leaving Firpo isolated on the left, he has a better physical profile to get into the space that would be open in front of him. I think a WB on his own can work, a CWB is more risky (due to the roam instruction) meaning he'll vacate the position entirely at times.

Any asymmetrical formation you choose to play will leave a player exposed, but you have to decide if the trade off is worth it for your system. My asymmetrical is basically a 4-3-3 where I've asked the wide right attacker to never come back and defend, instead looking to bomb on and run in behind whenever possible.

On the Tactic:

One of the reasons I enjoy playing with the TF is that it means 1. we're always a threat from set pieces 2. With a 17-18 jumping reach TF, the team has at least one advantage over a far superior opposition squad. It's a great way of punching up against better teams 3. There's tons of really cheap senior pros who you can pick up to do the job (and they can serve as great mentors to the kids coming through).

Carrilero has been one of my favorite roles in FM, since it's pretty close to a "blank" role and therefore the attributes of the player you play in the role will greatly effect how it plays. They operate like a defensive BBM who doesn't roam, doesn't go into the boxes, but will still make an occasional darting run forward (and if they've got good long shots they can score a good amount of bangers). It's a role that does a ton of running for the team, freeing up other players, I try to find someone defensively responsible and strong so if the opposition has a problem player (for example a skilled AP in midfield) I can task the Carrilero to go after him specifically all game. In essence he does the dirty work for the team.

Asymmetrical was in part due to the personnel I had and low to no budget (My Sheffield Wednesday are hopelessly in debt after almost going through administration a few years ago), but also because I've found a lot of success with a double striker system. It means you can flip the formation to target a defender you think is particularly weak, which I super. Mostly it's because it provides us with 5 very distinct avenues of attack: a transition long to the TF, over the top to the AF, out wide to the W who can take on his man 1v1, to the mezzala who benefits the most from the asymmetrical setup, and set pieces.

The Winger and the Wingback are key in that they provide width to the formation, just like the AF stretches the pitch vertically by pushing against the backline. The wingback on the right also has a ton of space to get into so I wanted a more progressive role. Stretching the pitch is very important to this direct counter attack type of play.

On the instructions: with a DM, and a very workman like Carrilero, alongside 4 rough and tough defenders I had more numbers inside to win the ball back. My defenders and gk weren't particularly tall so I wanted to avoid crosses if possible. Mid block is because I want the boys to sit deeper, but not invite too much pressure and so we can counter attack with space to run into.

It's a good tactic! Not perfect, but I really enjoy playing counter attack and trying to win cups from the off with a league 1 side. It definitely struggles if your opponent scores first, but takes advantage of your rise through the leagues. Most teams will think you suck and bring the game to you, leaving you space to exploit in behind. I've also found you need to do pretty specific recruitment, each role has very specific attributes you're looking for. But in general everyone needs to be consistent, everyone needs a decent personality, the wide players need to be quick, and almost everyone needs to be strong because we're fighting the world. I also have a soft spot for players with high aggression, high bravery, and tackling (even though okay maybe they're not the most impactful attributes).

On the Save:

Yes everything has gone very well this year! After a rocky early patch, the players doubted my leadership with no coaching badges or experience, we had to hold off a minor mutiny which very nearly saw an early dismissal. Sadly my relationship with club captain Barry Bannan never recovered and it was with great regret that we parted ways with Barry that January. We finished 3rd in the 1st division which angered fans and board alike, but were promoted in the playoffs to the Championship. We had, thankfully, bashed Sheffield United in the Steel City Derby in a chance meeting in the Cup and that's really what it's all about. A silver lining on a tumultuous season.

My second season at the helm saw the team chemistry come together and talks of mutiny were a distant past, we received automatic promotion to the premier league that year (okay 2nd place no title). Still celebrations were wild, with over 20 years passing since the barn storming owls last appearance in the top flight of English Football. I took a moment to listen to this classic:

Despite our outstanding debts of over 100m the board blessed us with a warchest of 34m to spend (I only do pounds up front transfer fees, a constraint that adds a bit of realism I enjoy).

Our recruitment was good, having prepared extensively for this moment, through um sending scouts to Benfica (and Sporting Lisbon). We brought in a 5-6 great kids our scouts had identified in our "no **** heads" transfer policy, so the relegation scrap was on! Fortunately we managed to hold on, barely finishing 17th on the last day of the season (we also got to the carabao cup final but lost despite playing a Liverpool side with 10 men). The next season, my fourth in charge, our kids came into their own and landed a champions league spot! A delightful moment, repaying the faith of our long-suffering fans (although we lost the league cup AGAIN).

But then...well, I really dislike the Swiss Format they've introduced for the champions league (I didn't realize it was different this year) so that's a big factor for why I've left the save there. Going to try to download an edit to play the Winter Update with the standard champions league implemented.

Anyways that's the journey so far!

Hey @Cloud9, another informative and enjoyable post! Thank you.

Ah! So in-game height doesn't have any effect at all? I suppose extreme cases would surely count, I.E if you had a 5"6' striker battling a 6"6' centre-back in the air? Either way, this is a good thing to look out for.

I think Leeds need an upgrade on their full-backs. In the case of Kristensen, I would be a little lenient because there's stuff I like about him. But he will not be a top level FB at the PL level. Firpo has been chastised in real life and that's no real surprise. He's not done well at all. So I would find it hard to play any full-back at the club on their own. But 5-3-2 WB did appeal and perhaps with Kristensen hitting early crosses with Bamford as the TF it could work... but again, Kristensen is on his own so the opposition would likely target him and maybe try the overlap?.

Back onto your tactic...

I've got you re: the Carrilero. That sounds like a useful role for both dominant and counter-attacking teams, right? You have somebody that can open space for other players and also chip in with a few goals himself. I wonder if Tyler Adams or Klich would do it for me on my save. Interestingly, Adam Forshaw popped up with a few bangers as a DLP(s).

Could you give me any instances of when you flipped the formation when targeting a weak CB? That sounds really interesting and would be nice to get a further insight into how your mind ticks.
Also, why do you play a DLP (d) rather than say an Anchor Man or a DM(d)?
How much success would you have with this tactic when you went 1-0 down? Would you draw or lose a lot of games? Would you step up the tempo or anything like that?
Did you notice that the AI had countered this tactic in any way? Or is it more fair to say that a tactic like that is difficult to counter if you were playing the top sides because their natural inclination is to take the game to you anyway? Because I doubt you played like that against the smaller sides...?

I just had that feeling you would have got Wednesday promoted back-to-back! That is really impressive stuff, so well done for that. That's League 1 to Champions League in 4 years - some journey. I'd say that the £34m you got in your first season back up is a pittance as well so you did really well to survive. A lot of PL clubs spend that on just one player these days. Actually, I had a similar situation when I got Birmingham promoted in my first season on FM22. I only got circa £15m to spend as the club was loaded with debt. I mean, it was either that or remain in the EFL and have to contend with that debt. At least with the PL TV money, you could go down but clear that debt completely. How close was you from going down in that first season back up?

Anyway, I digress! When you were in League One - and perhaps even in the Championship - did you still play on the counter? I imagine in League 1, Wednesday would have been heavy favourites to go up, so I can't imagine you played too much counter at that level? But I can imagine that you did play counter when you bashed the Blades.

So when you were in the lower leagues with SWFC, did you scout any other places aside from Benfica and Lisbon? No painful experiences with work permits either?

As for the fans and board being angry at a third-place finish/play-off promotion from League 1... how ungrateful! I remember the three years of despair down there supporting Leeds. I was just grateful to be out - no matter how they did it! I have heard negative feedback about the board/fan expectations and reactions and I've seen some weird stuff in my save as well.

By the sounds of it, you won't be playing that save any more but it shall be interesting to hear what your next adventure will be! If you look at the word 'anguish' in the dictionary, the definition of that is your defeat against 10 men Liverpool in the League Cup final. It would be nice if you could avenge that and win one before you move on to your next challenge. After all, Wednesday had a pretty good record in that comp in the early '90s...

Cloud9 · February 8, 2023

On 06/02/2023 at 14:26, Danarouso said:

Hey @Cloud9, another informative and enjoyable post! Thank you.

Ah! So in-game height doesn't have any effect at all? I suppose extreme cases would surely count, I.E if you had a 5"6' striker battling a 6"6' centre-back in the air? Either way, this is a good thing to look out for.

I think Leeds need an upgrade on their full-backs. In the case of Kristensen, I would be a little lenient because there's stuff I like about him. But he will not be a top level FB at the PL level. Firpo has been chastised in real life and that's no real surprise. He's not done well at all. So I would find it hard to play any full-back at the club on their own. But 5-3-2 WB did appeal and perhaps with Kristensen hitting early crosses with Bamford as the TF it could work... but again, Kristensen is on his own so the opposition would likely target him and maybe try the overlap?.

Back onto your tactic...

I've got you re: the Carrilero. That sounds like a useful role for both dominant and counter-attacking teams, right? You have somebody that can open space for other players and also chip in with a few goals himself. I wonder if Tyler Adams or Klich would do it for me on my save. Interestingly, Adam Forshaw popped up with a few bangers as a DLP(s).

Could you give me any instances of when you flipped the formation when targeting a weak CB? That sounds really interesting and would be nice to get a further insight into how your mind ticks.

Also, why do you play a DLP (d) rather than say an Anchor Man or a DM(d)?

How much success would you have with this tactic when you went 1-0 down? Would you draw or lose a lot of games? Would you step up the tempo or anything like that?

Did you notice that the AI had countered this tactic in any way? Or is it more fair to say that a tactic like that is difficult to counter if you were playing the top sides because their natural inclination is to take the game to you anyway? Because I doubt you played like that against the smaller sides...?

I just had that feeling you would have got Wednesday promoted back-to-back! That is really impressive stuff, so well done for that. That's League 1 to Champions League in 4 years - some journey. I'd say that the £34m you got in your first season back up is a pittance as well so you did really well to survive. A lot of PL clubs spend that on just one player these days. Actually, I had a similar situation when I got Birmingham promoted in my first season on FM22. I only got circa £15m to spend as the club was loaded with debt. I mean, it was either that or remain in the EFL and have to contend with that debt. At least with the PL TV money, you could go down but clear that debt completely. How close was you from going down in that first season back up?

Anyway, I digress! When you were in League One - and perhaps even in the Championship - did you still play on the counter? I imagine in League 1, Wednesday would have been heavy favourites to go up, so I can't imagine you played too much counter at that level? But I can imagine that you did play counter when you bashed the Blades.

So when you were in the lower leagues with SWFC, did you scout any other places aside from Benfica and Lisbon? No painful experiences with work permits either?

As for the fans and board being angry at a third-place finish/play-off promotion from League 1... how ungrateful! I remember the three years of despair down there supporting Leeds. I was just grateful to be out - no matter how they did it! I have heard negative feedback about the board/fan expectations and reactions and I've seen some weird stuff in my save as well.

By the sounds of it, you won't be playing that save any more but it shall be interesting to hear what your next adventure will be! If you look at the word 'anguish' in the dictionary, the definition of that is your defeat against 10 men Liverpool in the League Cup final. It would be nice if you could avenge that and win one before you move on to your next challenge. After all, Wednesday had a pretty good record in that comp in the early '90s...

I believe height has no direct impact, aside from usually being reflected in a players jumping ability. If a smaller player is winning the ball, it could be down to his mentals (bravery and strength are also important for winning headers).

I agree on Firpo IRL, he definitely looks like a weak link in the team. His stats in FM do look pretty good, and decent fullbacks are hard to comeback. That being said if he's not performing move him on, sometimes players just don't work. I'd be careful about isolating an immobile fullback like Kristensen just because he'll have a lot of space in front of him which he could be covering and running into.

Carrilero:

You could use it in an attacking or defensive tactic, basically wherever there's a space you're trying to fill in the formation. As a supporting role it can do the running for other players you want to highlight.
It fit well for me in this specific tactic with the player I had (mobile, decent technically, and great mentals). I'd been experimenting with a FB(s) on the left hand side (to give the wb more license to get forward) so there was a big gap for him to drift into between that fullback and the W(a).
Klich looks like a great player, but he's getting on in terms of age so his really low pace could become a problem. Tyler Adams could fit the role well, but in my opinion you could deploy him as a BWM(s) in the middle of the park to more effect.
Although it's a great role I wouldn't feel the need to force it unless it fits. The BWM (s), a CM(s) with custom PIs, and the carrilero can all fill the workman niche in your midfield depending on your tactic and player available. In my formation there was a big gap on the lefthand side: the middle was occupied with the TFs dropping back and the DLP sitting so the carrilero was a great fit for drifting left between the boxes. I also needed a player to do the hardwork for the W(a) and the mezzala (a) paired around him, and he checked that box as well.

On the other questions:

Going behind early is a problem, usually you can wear down the opposition who will be a lot more tired later on in the game. When behind I flip the DLP to a HB, the WB(s) to WB(a). If they're still attacking you after going up though, you can keep countering just fine. Usually I'll up the lines, the mentality a bit, flip on counter press and try to go for it without opening up the defence too much.
AI managers weren't adapting to me much mostly because they perceived us as terrible, but I find a 4-2-4 difficult to play against. Teams that start dropping their defensive line can be a problem as well, I'd drop the tempo if they're sitting back more.
On flipping the formation, I want to go after players that are weak in their lineup. If they've got a FB who's really slow or has terrible mentals I'll target him. If they're playing a WBa, CWB, or especially an IWB I try to line my Winger up with that defender.
In League 1 it was pretty much a romp, I started w asymmetrical because we had a great TF and AF in the squad and I wanted to fit them both in. I just played on positive, a little less direct, less tempo and with higher lines. After that our side was pretty routine underdogs. Against tough opponents I'd dropped the mentality to defensive. Encountering a team I thought we were better than I'd usually go out with the same formation and start on balanced mentality work from there. GK distribution against a tough team can be the TF if they're in a high press, and against a weak team I always role it out to the playmaker.
The ability to distribute to the TF against a high press is really fundamental to the tactic being good, it allows you to beat the press in one go and attack when they're pushed up the field. I brought in Vedat Muriqi as my TF for cheap and he was pivotal to everything we did (aggression, bravery, balance, strength, jumping reach and crazy good work ethic).

Think we stayed up by 2 points, it was a gamble to bring in all youth players and especially to go after the cup competitions as well-- but it meant we could catapult up the table the next season. The striker who had got us promoted, Eddie Salcedo who we'd picked up for 700k, got poached (board decided the 40m in installments from Leverkusen was too good to turn down) in the last few hours of the summer transfer window as well. That was an extra blow and happened without any time to bring in a replacement. What made matters worse is that the board only gave me 10% of the transfer fee because of our debt (20m up front, 20m over 3 years), so we lost our star striker and received 2m after the window had shut.

In terms of scouting I did do much broader scouting, but ran out of scouting budget while in the championship. I freed up a little finances primarily in moving on players with big wages and brought in a few kids, so there was very little to actually scout with. Portugal players SI knows more about as well so I found that they had better personalities in general. The same could be said with Norway. SI puts "balanced" on everyone who comes out of Brazil which is kinda problematic imo.

Hm yea! Sheffield Wednesday do deserve some silverware which I failed to deliver unfortunately. Maybe I'll go again with the team with the Winter Update and try with 5-2-2-1 tactic. The Swiss model does really annoys me, it's like this constant reminder that the super league is out there grow strong, so I may need to start afreash. :onmehead:

Hope some of that is helpful/answered the questions you had, congratulations (or condolences) on the Marsch sacking IRL!

Edited February 8, 2023 by Cloud9

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Guidance Needed - Leeds United (First Season)

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