long term fitness built up during pre-season preparation

[AndreasAust]

in one of the forum guides here I found following statement regarding pre-season preparation:
"When fatigue is low a player that works hard physically (sessions that increase fatigue) will improve his long term fitness, meaning he can stave off jadedness longer into the season. However, when a player is already becoming fatigued, sessions that are overly physical (increase fatigue) will tire the player further, meaning he will eventually become jaded.
As such, if you run a proper pre-season the players will remain fitter and last longer into the season proper"
 

I am a little unsure what to make of this because in the game when I hover over the green hearts there is no such thing as "long term fitness", but I had a very bad preparation and I do notice now that my players easily get fatigued - getting red hearts by halftime break already.

But I always thought as long as i go into a match with a shiny green heart it is the physical attributes (e.g. stamina) - and those only -  which make a difference. Apparently this is not the case?

And also, following this statement above, while being in pre-season preparation and doing heavy workloads on each day, always on the next day those players will start the day already a little fatigued which he/she claims to be counterproductive and eventually lead to jadedness. But isn't the preparation supposed to go hard on them during these weeks?

Thank you.

on an additional note, before reading the statement above I would have defined "long term fitness" as the player attribute "natural fitness" but I don't think that this is meant here since it cannot be affected so much just by a couple weeks in pre-season.

Edited April 14, 2022 by AndreasAust

[bartex55]

On 14/04/2022 at 09:18, AndreasAust said:

I am a little unsure what to make of this because in the game when I hover over the green hearts there is no such thing as "long term fitness", but I had a very bad preparation and I do notice now that my players easily get fatigued - getting red hearts by halftime break already.

There is a hidden jadedness attribute in the game. The players start the preseason with a buffer for it (negative value). As the matches go by, the jadedness increases and at some point the limit is exceeded and the burnout event occurs.
The more negative the jadedness, the more training is able to increase this buffer further. Matches increase jadedness, which is why you want to do this intensive training before they are played.

On 14/04/2022 at 09:18, AndreasAust said:

But I always thought as long as i go into a match with a shiny green heart it is the physical attributes (e.g. stamina) - and those only -  which make a difference. Apparently this is not the case?

How hard fitness falls during a match is determined by another (match fitness) attribute, which also increases as more matches are played. Players need 3-4 matches to be match fit at 100%.

On 14/04/2022 at 09:18, AndreasAust said:

And also, following this statement above, while being in pre-season preparation and doing heavy workloads on each day, always on the next day those players will start the day already a little fatigued which he/she claims to be counterproductive and eventually lead to jadedness. But isn't the preparation supposed to go hard on them during these weeks?

This is not counterproductive because there is a mechanic that ensures that if you have negative jadedness, training (but not matches) reduces it even more instead of increasing it. 

On 14/04/2022 at 09:18, AndreasAust said:

on an additional note, before reading the statement above I would have defined "long term fitness" as the player attribute "natural fitness" but I don't think that this is meant here since it cannot be affected so much just by a couple weeks in pre-season.

The natural fitness attribute modifies how quickly players recover between games, how quickly they acquire match fitness and how quickly jadedness progresses. Additionally, it determines from which level of fitness players start after a break in training and also slows down the decline of physical attributes in older players.

However, all of the above are subtle factors and by far the most important thing in physical preparation is for a player to get into a match rhythm (3-4 games) and have a long enough break between the next game.

[Feron]

thanks very much!  this clears up quite a lot.

But one question, now I've done my pre-season with lots of dark grey heavy workloads - but also with each 2x "match practice" a week as this is my favourite session in order to train individual attributes and keeping them happy. Does this session count as training or does it increase jadedness because it counts as game? 

[bartex55]

Yes, match practice counts as traning and contributes significantly to that jadedness buffer. It is a good alternative or supplement to pre-season physical training because it satisfies players despite its high load

[glengarry224]

On 17/04/2022 at 16:13, bartex55 said:

There is a hidden jadedness attribute in the game. The players start the preseason with a buffer for it (negative value). As the matches go by, the jadedness increases and at some point the limit is exceeded and the burnout event occurs.
The more negative the jadedness, the more training is able to increase this buffer further. Matches increase jadedness, which is why you want to do this intensive training before they are played.

How hard fitness falls during a match is determined by another (match fitness) attribute, which also increases as more matches are played. Players need 3-4 matches to be match fit at 100%.

This is not counterproductive because there is a mechanic that ensures that if you have negative jadedness, training (but not matches) reduces it even more instead of increasing it. 
 

Thanks much for this info.  In preseason, I tend to do 2-3 weeks with a lot of double-intensity physical sessions, especially Endurance.  Does this work?  Does Endurance decrease the hidden jadedness factor more than other sessions?  Or does it merely work on increasing Stamina/NF/WR like the in-game explanation says? 

Is there a limit to how negative that hidden factor can go?  

I have noticed that when I take over a team, mid-season, my players have a lot more trouble with jadedness, and much less when I do the preseason training.

[danej]

On 18/04/2022 at 01:13, bartex55 said:

There is a hidden jadedness attribute in the game. The players start the preseason with a buffer for it (negative value). As the matches go by, the jadedness increases and at some point the limit is exceeded and the burnout event occurs.
The more negative the jadedness, the more training is able to increase this buffer further. Matches increase jadedness, which is why you want to do this intensive training before they are played.

How long do you wait before you play any friendlies during pre-season? In other words, for how long do you run an extreme physical boot camp-style training schedule?

 

Do you do the same initial pre-season routine for all squads, also U23 and U18?

[danej]

On 20/04/2022 at 03:29, glengarry224 said:

Thanks much for this info.  In preseason, I tend to do 2-3 weeks with a lot of double-intensity physical sessions, especially Endurance.  Does this work?  Does Endurance decrease the hidden jadedness factor more than other sessions?  Or does it merely work on increasing Stamina/NF/WR like the in-game explanation says? 

Is there a limit to how negative that hidden factor can go?  

I have noticed that when I take over a team, mid-season, my players have a lot more trouble with jadedness, and much less when I do the preseason training.

Good questions, I would also like to know this

[Rashidi]

On 20/04/2022 at 09:29, glengarry224 said:

Thanks much for this info.  In preseason, I tend to do 2-3 weeks with a lot of double-intensity physical sessions, especially Endurance.  Does this work?  Does Endurance decrease the hidden jadedness factor more than other sessions?  Or does it merely work on increasing Stamina/NF/WR like the in-game explanation says? 

Is there a limit to how negative that hidden factor can go?  

I have noticed that when I take over a team, mid-season, my players have a lot more trouble with jadedness, and much less when I do the preseason training.

You’ve answered your own question. Without a proper preseason training schedule that incorporates some kind of boot camp to build up fitness, you will find midway through a season that players develop issues around their conditioning.

I do almost 3 weeks of boot camp. Players are naturally going to pick up minor injuries but these are not usually game breaking.  I also incorporate at least 5-8 friendlies. This depends entirely on tactical familiarity. If my team has been playing the same tactic every season and there are not a lot of new additions to the squad then chances are heavy boot camp and around 5-6 games. Otherwise it’s more games and around 2 weeks of bootcamp with as many match practice sessions as I can squeeze.

Once the season starts it’s easy street as far as training goes. Training on FM is very organic and you just need to make sure the overall schedule is balanced for development and you can never go wrong.

[danej]

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I do almost 3 weeks of boot camp. Players are naturally going to pick up minor injuries but these are not usually game breaking.  I also incorporate at least 5-8 friendlies. This depends entirely on tactical familiarity. If my team has been playing the same tactic every season and there are not a lot of new additions to the squad then chances are heavy boot camp and around 5-6 games. Otherwise it’s more games and around 2 weeks of bootcamp with as many match practice sessions as I can squeeze.

When do you play your first friendly? I think what you imply is that you don't play friendlies during boot camp. And that the first friendly marks the end of boot camp. But I am not sure whether I interpreted this correctly.

 

Another question: Do you use a boot camp training schedule in the same way, for the same duration, for all your squads, senior team, U23, U18? My sparse experience so far suggests that it works well for the first team + U23. But I am less sure regarding the U18 squad. Most players aged 17 and younger seem to achieve "low" jadedness already after a week of boot camp, perhaps even faster. So I am puzzled as to what is a good duration of boot camp for players aged 17 and younger. Perhaps no boot camp at all for the youngsters.

Edited August 2, 2022 by danej

[Rashidi]

First week no, but I roll them in the 2nd week during bootcamp itself. And I do bootcamp only for the senior team. 

[danej]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

And I do bootcamp only for the senior team. 

During boot camp, do you manually ease training intensity for first team players aged 17 and younger? If yes, how much, which settings, half intensity perhaps? Or alternatively you perhaps move first team players aged 17 and younger to the U23 team temporarily, untill boot camp is over?

 

I ask because my impression is that players aged 17 and younger those don't deal with boot camp training very well. I doubt that boot camp is good for players aged 17 and younger. But you know much better than me.

[bosque]

Edit: please delete, I made a question answered two scrolls down 

Edited August 2, 2022 by bosque