PASSING : what is the correlation system between team setting and player setting?

[FmTheory]

I would like to have your interpretation of how and why the individual player setting is changed by the team setting.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by FmTheory

[FmTheory]

- What does the Standard mean about the single player? that he is totally free to decide? or that he must play respecting the level that has been set on the team setting?

- Short and Direct in the single what do they mean? are settings that live correcting player decisions based on team settings? or are they independent settings?

- Why is there often that last black and unselectable button? what does it represent ?

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by FmTheory

[FmTheory]

- Why when in the team we set the Short passes, the "standard" setting is eliminated on the single player? and we only have Short-Directs available?
 

[FmTheory]

Going to the opposite side, on direct team passes, the consequence on the setting of the single player is different, this time the standard is there, and the direct pass disappears.
What is the correlation? why is there this change?

 

[FmTheory]

Cliccando sui passi extra diretti nell'impostazione della squadra, sul single player troviamo una lunga barra bloccata, che cita gli "Shorter Passing" ........ cosa significa?
Perché è lungo e non impostabile?
Perché parli dei "Passaggi brevi"?

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by FmTheory

[FmTheory]

in the "Positive" mentality, the situation changes graphically, with the passes set "Much More Direct" on the team, in the single player we have the short passes, but the bar is no longer long and blocked, but the short passes are mentioned in a bar in the middle, and to the right there seems to be the unselectable standard setting.

I don't understand the difference between these two types of short passes


  with "Positive" mentality

[fc.cadoni]

2 hours ago, FmTheory said:

in the "Positive" mentality, the situation changes graphically, with the passes set "Much More Direct" on the team, in the single player we have the short passes, but the bar is no longer long and blocked, but the short passes are mentioned in a bar in the middle, and to the right there seems to be the unselectable standard setting.

I don't understand the difference between these two types of short passes


  with "Positive" mentality

When the PI page says "shorter passing" it means shorter than the team level.

If the team level is maximum directness, then, for example, a DLP will play more direct, but still slightly below the team level. 

[CARRERA]

I don’t wanna comment every screenshot, but I can give you some general advice. 

Any tactical instruction in football manager is a „do more“ or „do less“ it’s never a „don’t do it ever“ or „only do that“ instruction. So a player will always be able to make is decision, but with a tendency.

FM has 3 layers of tactical depth, which build up on each other.

Team Mentality is the first layer and comes with a broad setting of instructions for your team

Team instructions is the second layer where you can adjust specific instructions for your whole team, based on the default set that came with team mentality

The third layer is Player instructions, where you really can go into detail for a specific player. And make adjustments based on how Team mentality and Team instructions were set up. 

(I know there is OIs as a 4th layer, but ill leave it for now)

So to sum this up, it is important to set up your team in a specific order. Team Mentality -> Team instructions -> Player instructions 

in terms of the screenshots, I think there are severel graphical glitches, so I usually don’t really care about what is displayed

Edited March 20, 2022 by CARRERA

[FmTheory]

2 ore fa, CARRERA ha scritto:

Qualsiasi istruzione tattica in un manager di calcio è un "fai di più" o "fai di meno"

that's right, this is the logic of the system.

you will agree with me that consequently "standard" on the single player means "respect the team setting".

The logic becomes confused when on the single there is no longer the standard option, but only short - direct
at this point I don't understand what sense it makes to set a team option (to all players), if no one can respect it, because the setting forces us to set "more" or "less"

short and direct , there is no standard, we cannot tell any player to respect the team setting (Shorter).

this specific aspect confuses me a lot

[CARRERA]

1 minute ago, FmTheory said:

that's right, this is the logic of the system.

you will agree with me that consequently "standard" on the single player means "respect the team setting".

The logic becomes confused when on the single there is no longer the standard option, but only short - direct
at this point I don't understand what sense it makes to set a team option (to all players), if no one can respect it, because the setting forces us to set "more" or "less"

short and direct , there is no standard, we cannot tell any player to respect the team setting (Shorter).

this specific aspect confuses me a lot

I think that example particular is correct.

you set up your team to play shorter then they normally would under the selected team mentality

And it perfectly transferred to the player. They are by default now looking for more safe and short passes. You now can make him play more direct if you wish to.

[FmTheory]

8 minuti fa, CARRERA ha scritto:

E si è trasferito perfettamente al giocatore. Per impostazione predefinita ora stanno cercando pass più sicuri e brevi. Ora puoi farlo giocare in modo più diretto, se lo desideri.

I can make him play more directly or shorter than the team setting, but not the same ....... this is the problem, because I have ...
shorts: less
direct: more
I can't enforce the team setting

what you say happens in direct team passes, where consequently on the single player we have:
Standard: respect the team setting
Short: Play shorter than the team setting
that makes sense

 OK , here it makes sense because in a neutral situation we can decrease, respect or increase



 OK , Here it makes sense because we are already "more direct than the team, so we can only decrease (short) or Respect (standard)



  ???? , to respect the same system logic of the other two examples, here we should have standards - direct, respect or increase

[fc.cadoni]

Since what you saying makes sense, different roles has different passing (hidden?) options.

It confusing, I know; hope SI will upgrade that field (Pressing Settings as well) in UI.

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, FmTheory said:

I can make him play more directly or shorter than the team setting, but not the same ....... this is the problem, because I have ...

thats not true, the defaul value for having shorter passing as a TI is shorter passing as a PI so you cant make him pass even shorter then your team is instructed already. Your only option is to make him play more direct.

And the same goes for more direct, the default value is already the highest possible setting you can choose, eventhough its labeled "standard". So you can only make him play shorter.

thats why i said i wouldnt look at the labels too much, as there are for sure some glitches.

 

 

[FmTheory]

2 ore fa, CARRERA ha scritto:

non è vero, il valore predefinito per avere passaggi più brevi come TI è un passaggio più breve come PI, quindi non puoi farlo passare ancora più corto di quanto la tua squadra sia già istruita. La tua unica opzione è farlo giocare in modo più diretto.

E lo stesso vale per più diretti, il valore predefinito è già l'impostazione più alta possibile che puoi scegliere, anche se è etichettata come "standard". Quindi puoi solo farlo giocare più corto.

ecco perché ho detto che non avrei guardato troppo le etichette, poiché ci sono sicuramente alcuni problemi.

 

 

 so we agree.

TEAM: Shorter

PLAYER: Short (= standard) and Direct 

[Aoyao]

9 小时前, CARRERA说:

thats why i said i wouldnt look at the labels too much, as there are for sure some glitches.

 

 

AGREE WITH U

Edited March 21, 2022 by Aoyao

[Aoyao]

wait for test

[FmTheory]

5 ore fa, Aoyao ha scritto:

wait for test

what test ?

[Aoyao]

16 小时前, FmTheory说:

what test ?

 the correlation system between team setting and player setting

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

This is a very interesting and at the same time confusing thread 

[Aoyao]

1 小时前, H_a_a_k_o_n说:

This is a very interesting and at the same time confusing thread 

the same with TI press instruction

[Rashidi]

I think if you do a search on the forums you will find a detailed explanation by me. 
 

Every role has a set passing length by default.

Passing ranges from a value of 1-20. Team settings range from 1-20 too. 

So a defender for example could by default start at passing of 5 on balanced mentality. When you adjust the team mentality, that acts to adjust every roles passing width pressing and team width by a certain small amount. So increasing team mentality will push that defenders passing up slightly to maybe 7 if you adjust team mentality up.

Without adjusting mentality if you were to increase team passing settings by one notch it could shift individual passing settings from standard to slightly direct. This adjusts every roles passing by a small amount. So the defenders passing will go up.

What the value is will be hidden under the hood.  A player on shorter passing or much shorter passing could have a passing range of 1-5. 
 

I did a long explanation of this a while back and I suggest people search for the explanation. I was involved in the creation of the tactical creator so i I understand to some extent what’s happening under the hood. Naturally with each new version of the game it moves further and further away, but the basics of team and individual settings remains the same.

The reason why there are broad labels, is because a lot of us got tired of explaining the difference between 11 and 12 passing for example. People were asking for explicit explanations. Labels were chosen that would give people a broad idea of what’s happen. A player would either play short standard(mixed style of passing) or direct which is a longer style of of passing. That was felt to be the only description people would need, and I tend to agree because on different mentalities and with different roles you can get plenty of variation anyway. So a simple label was better.

 

[bosque]

hace 12 horas, Rashidi dijo:

I think if you do a search on the forums you will find a detailed explanation by me. 
 

Every role has a set passing length by default.

Passing ranges from a value of 1-20. Team settings range from 1-20 too. 

So a defender for example could by default start at passing of 5 on balanced mentality. When you adjust the team mentality, that acts to adjust every roles passing width pressing and team width by a certain small amount. So increasing team mentality will push that defenders passing up slightly to maybe 7 if you adjust team mentality up.

Without adjusting mentality if you were to increase team passing settings by one notch it could shift individual passing settings from standard to slightly direct. This adjusts every roles passing by a small amount. So the defenders passing will go up.

What the value is will be hidden under the hood.  A player on shorter passing or much shorter passing could have a passing range of 1-5. 
 

I did a long explanation of this a while back and I suggest people search for the explanation. I was involved in the creation of the tactical creator so i I understand to some extent what’s happening under the hood. Naturally with each new version of the game it moves further and further away, but the basics of team and individual settings remains the same.

The reason why there are broad labels, is because a lot of us got tired of explaining the difference between 11 and 12 passing for example. People were asking for explicit explanations. Labels were chosen that would give people a broad idea of what’s happen. A player would either play short standard(mixed style of passing) or direct which is a longer style of of passing. That was felt to be the only description people would need, and I tend to agree because on different mentalities and with different roles you can get plenty of variation anyway. So a simple label was better.

 

I read in a @herne79 guide about possession with intent that in Positive mentality defenders play a shorter passing and in Cautious a more direct one.

Is that true? Or the higher the mentality the longer the passing lenght of all players?

[Aoyao]

Why does it do that?

When TI set Much More direct, the PI set shorter passing?

在 2022/3/30 在 PM5点56分, Rashidi说:

I had to try and represent it visually. And if I do get my explanation wrong, I am certain someone from SI will pop in and correct me.

When the Tactical creator was first made, it was done under the assumption that team instructions and individual instructions would work together in tandem, in some cases they would complement and in other cases they would override. For example hard tackling as a PI and setting easy tackling as a TI. Players with hard tackling as a PI would still hard tackle whilst the rest of the team would stay on feet.

As far as the team sliders go, these were created as an instruction that would affect those instructions that worked within ranges from 1-20. The team instruction would be a macro instruction that affected the whole team in bands of 4 with 1 and 20 being the lower and upper limits. 

As we added more roles, certain roles were now hardcoded to operate within fixed parameters and these could not be changed. Some roles for example had a range for passing, creative freedom and even locked in tackling or pressing set ups.  As far as  team passing directness went, different roles were expected to pass within different ranges based on the nature of the role and the team mentality.

So if I wanted to for example,  play a very quick brand of passing perhaps have the whole team playing quick one touch passing even on higher mentalities I would need to go in and assign a locked in player instruction to each individual role to "lock in" their passing. This would be done via the PI.

I dont' know when the UI bug happened, but today, we can't adjust individual passing parameters if the team passing slider is set to shorter. It needs to on Balanced, Slightly More Direct or Very direct. Setting it to Slightly More Direct will allow you to change the individual passing directness of a player by 3 zones, shorter, standard and more direct passing.  

Its unfortunately an annoying UI bug, and if you want to adjust individual passing directness, I would recommend changing your team slider to balanced or slightly more direct and then set up any specific passing PIs you want and once the PIs are set up you can adjust the team slider. As far as I know the team slider will still affect the team in a general sense, but the player instructions will act as a limiting factor for those roles assigned a PI.

Once again whether a player follows those player instructions or not will ultimately depend on his role and how the other roles in the tactic have been set up. If you have set someone to shorter passing and he doesn't have any options he could either player a dangerous short pass that can be intercepted or he could hoof the ball.

Once again, I could be wrong, but these were the parameters we were supposed to work under when the tactical creator was first designed.

-----------------------------------------------------

@Jack Sarahs

Edited June 28, 2022 by Aoyao

[Rashidi]

Its a visual bug, been there for ages

[FmTheory]

16 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

È un bug visivo, è lì da secoli

ciao, seguo molto i tuoi video su youtube anche se devo usare i sottotitoli :).
e invece per quanto riguarda l'accumulo delle stesse istruzioni tra quelle della squadra e quelle dei singoli, cosa mi puoi dire?

ad esempio, con un Tigheter Marking impostato come squadra, cosa succede alla persona a cui l'ho impostato anche nel suo profilo? si sommano? in quale modo? o ci sono differenze di comportamento?

stessa cosa per i contrasti, un giocatore con contrasti duri in una squadra allestita con contrasti furiosi, sarà 2 volte peggio nei contrasti?

Edited June 28, 2022 by FmTheory

[Rashidi]

8 minutes ago, FmTheory said:

‎hello, I follow a lot of your videos on youtube even if I have to use subtitles :). ‎‎ ‎
‎and instead with regard to the accumulation of the same instructions between those of the team and those of the individuals, what can you tell me? ‎‎ ‎

‎for example, with a Tigheter Marking set as a team, what happens to the person to whom I also set it in his profile? ‎‎ ‎‎do they add up? ‎‎ ‎‎in what way? ‎‎ ‎‎or are there differences in behavior? ‎‎ ‎

‎same thing for contrasts, a player with hard contrasts in a team set up with furious contrasts, will be 2 times worse in contrasts?‎

Tight marking is a yes and no instruction. Same with tackling hard or easy.

If you have chosen tight marking as a team instruction and then added it as a player instruction, it doesn't make them "tighter" .

A player instruction can adjust something slightly more but that is usually with the passing meters. For example you could set someone to shorter passing as a player instruction but you tell your team to be on direct. The player will still be on shorter passing. But if you increase mentality that shorter passing could be increased slightly. Since mentality can increase passing, width, tempo etc. 

You could for example tell the whole team to play on very attacking mentality, set passing to balanced and then adjust every players passing to very short. Then you go into the game and make sure each role is told to play with less risk. This affects their through balls. Now when you are playing on very attacking mentality you will notice that your PI passing instructions are now influencing how the team passes the ball. 

Naturally different roles will react differently since, these can sometimes be hardcoded.

 

[FmTheory]

Il 28/6/2022 in 12:21 , Rashidi ha scritto:

Tight marking is a yes and no instruction. Same with tackling hard or easy.

If you have chosen tight marking as a team instruction and then added it as a player instruction, it doesn't make them "tighter" .

A player instruction can adjust something slightly more but that is usually with the passing meters. For example you could set someone to shorter passing as a player instruction but you tell your team to be on direct. The player will still be on shorter passing. But if you increase mentality that shorter passing could be increased slightly. Since mentality can increase passing, width, tempo etc. 

You could for example tell the whole team to play on very attacking mentality, set passing to balanced and then adjust every players passing to very short. Then you go into the game and make sure each role is told to play with less risk. This affects their through balls. Now when you are playing on very attacking mentality you will notice that your PI passing instructions are now influencing how the team passes the ball. 

Naturally different roles will react differently since, these can sometimes be hardcoded.

 

so, tell me if I understand correctly.

the instructions on the individual DO NOT ADD TO the same team instructions (marking, tackling, dribling)

  can we say that the team instructions are dominant and therefore "overwrite" the individual ones which, even if activated, do not add anything to a team instruction already activated previously?

for example, if I set team "more dribble", activating single player "more dribble" will not further increase the dribling frequency on that player ........ is that right?

the correlation, however, is in opposite settings, they do not add up but can subtract from each other, in the sense that if I set "dribla more than the team", however I impose "dribla less on the single player", that player will return to a default behavior on dribling

can this be a correct analysis? or did I say some silly things?

[FmTheory]

Il 26/6/2022 in 04:23 , Rashidi ha scritto:

Penso che se fai una ricerca sui forum troverai una spiegazione dettagliata da parte mia. 
 

Ogni ruolo ha una lunghezza di passaggio impostata per impostazione predefinita.

Il passaggio varia da un valore di 1-20. Anche le impostazioni della squadra vanno da 1 a 20. 

Quindi un difensore, ad esempio, potrebbe iniziare di default con un passaggio di 5 con mentalità equilibrata. Quando regoli la mentalità della squadra, ciò agisce per regolare tutti i ruoli che passano la larghezza della pressione e la larghezza della squadra di una certa piccola quantità. Quindi aumentare la mentalità della squadra spingerà i difensori a passare leggermente a forse 7 se aggiorni la mentalità della squadra.

Senza modificare la mentalità, se dovessi aumentare le impostazioni dei passaggi della squadra di una tacca, potresti spostare le impostazioni dei passaggi individuali da standard a leggermente diretti. Questo regola tutti i ruoli che passano di una piccola quantità. Quindi saliranno i difensori di passaggio.

Qual è il valore sarà nascosto sotto il cofano. Un giocatore con passaggi più brevi o molto più brevi potrebbe avere un range di passaggi di 1-5. 
 

Ho fatto una lunga spiegazione di questo tempo fa e suggerisco alle persone di cercare la spiegazione. Sono stato coinvolto nella creazione del creatore tattico, quindi capisco in una certa misura cosa sta succedendo sotto il cofano. Naturalmente con ogni nuova versione del gioco si allontana sempre di più, ma le basi delle impostazioni di squadra e individuali rimangono le stesse.

Il motivo per cui ci sono etichette ampie è perché molti di noi si sono stancati di spiegare la differenza tra 11 e 12 passaggi, ad esempio. La gente chiedeva spiegazioni esplicite. Sono state scelte etichette che dessero alle persone un'idea generale di ciò che sta accadendo. Un giocatore giocherebbe uno standard corto (stile di passaggio misto) o diretto, che è uno stile di passaggio più lungo. Questa è stata considerata l'unica descrizione di cui le persone avrebbero bisogno, e tendo ad essere d'accordo perché su mentalità diverse e con ruoli diversi puoi comunque ottenere molte variazioni. Quindi un'etichetta semplice era meglio.

 

can I have a link to the discussion you refer to?