How does this counter tactic look? Especially compared to my primary and secondary tactics?

[Cam NBH]

Wanted some advice on this further to Grattade07s thread here please: 

 

Here are my three tactics. The only PIs I have are AMC - GFF, MCL - Take more risks, DL - GFF and RWWB on the primary and tertiary, no PIs on Secondary

 

Primary - Nicked a lot of the ideas from Ozil to the arsenal  Pretty happy with the way this one plays, some lovely football.

 

 

Secondary - this is a keep the ball tactic, I don't even really want to attack with this one. I just want to keep the ball and rest. Ignore slightly higher tempo, I adjust this according to the opposition. I am pretty pleased with this one but happy to hear any advice or comments.

 

Tertiary - This is the counter attacking one I want advice on please, tried to keep it as similar to the primary as possible. Any glaring errors here or simple ways to improve please?

 

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Cam NBH

[glengarry224]

The AP might be too much of a ball magnet and slow down counters.  I'd like to see someone attacking the wide areas who can cross into your two attacking forwards.  Here is a good recent post about counter attacking.  You don't have 3 at the back, but it is useful:

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by glengarry224

[Cam NBH]

9 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

The AP might be too much of a ball magnet and slow down counters.  I'd like to see someone attacking the wide areas who can cross into your two attacking forwards.  Here is a good recent post about counter attacking.  You don't have 3 at the back, but it is useful:

 

 

Thanks I will check that out.

[FelixCAN]

Counter Attacking does not mean using lower mentality. It actually reduces all the stuff you want for quick transitions, like passing lengths and tempo and the player's willingness to take risks. I am not convinced of the actual functionality of lower lines unless you have the right players to deal with it. If you want to counter attack having two playmakers is way too much if you want quick transitions, it basically makes the players look for these and ignore that Auba or Saka could have tons of space to run into with a simple longer ball.

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, FelixCAN said:

Counter Attacking does not mean using lower mentality. It actually reduces all the stuff you want for quick transitions, like passing lengths and tempo and the player's willingness to take risks.

Counter Attacks are a special event that’s triggered within the match engine. It has it own rules and doesn’t relate to your other instructions. 

It’s most likely triggered when intercepting a pass while the other team is building up. So a more passive defensive Style with less pressing triggers can suit well

[FelixCAN]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb CARRERA:

Counter Attacks are a special event that’s triggered within the match engine. It has it own rules and doesn’t relate to your other instructions. 

It’s most likely triggered when intercepting a pass while the other team is building up. So a more passive defensive Style with less pressing triggers can suit well

I have to disagree here, I'm sorry. What you are talking about is AI triggered counter attacks. This OP is more of a beginner or casual player I'd guess so I wouldn't want to go into some meta stuff regarding the interpretation of "counter attacks" in the game, when all the OP meant is a more quick transition tactic probably against better teams. And Cautious mentality and certain instructions and roles will cause players to ignore quick transition opportunities these teams will give you with their wing backs pushing up. They will rather pass around cautiously with not a lot of risk until they get pressed by the superior team's players and either make a mistake or are forced to kick it away to the front. Yes, mentalities are a big paradox, but I can't force SI to finally change this. This is the same thing, why "defensive" teams on low mentalities got or still sometimes get insane passing numbers unless you play top heavy formations with crazy pressing.

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, FelixCAN said:

Yes, mentalities are a big paradox

I think they actually do what they are supposed to, but I’m not here to argue so I’ll leave it here.

I just wanted to help the OP to better understand how counter attacks from a deeper position work and how to trigger them. counter attacks are quite different from generally just quick transitions.

But I guess he will figure out what works best for him anyway.

[FelixCAN]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb CARRERA:

I think they actually do what they are supposed to, but I’m not here to argue so I’ll leave it here.

I just wanted to help the OP to better understand how counter attacks from a deeper position work and how to trigger them. counter attacks are quite different from generally just quick transitions.

But I guess he will figure out what works best for him anyway.

Do you see midtable to relegation teams play the ball around at the back against Man City or Liverpool achieving 500 to 600 passes when playing "defensive"? Here just a random game from my current save, Burnley has over 500 passes away to AI Pep.

Real life? 707 - 249. https://fbref.com/en/matches/55778d0d/Manchester-City-Burnley-October-16-2021-Premier-League

I'm sorry, but it's not about arguing, it's about being correct or not.

And as I said, the OP imo doesn't seem to be a highly experienced player that wants to go into meta discussions about what counter attacking in the match engine means, but he wants a quick transition tactic to do better against the top teams that are attacking him.

Something very simple like this on a high mentality will probably do better than most of what you can do on cautious. I've played with bad teams in the Premier League a fair bit the last years and played very similar to the OP with lower lines, low mentality against the big teams and after I finally came to my senses and played tactics more like this, the results were a lot better. From losing without any chance to competing with them regularly. And that is what the OP should take from this, so he can do it himself as well.

[Cam NBH]

Very interesting discussion, thanks. 

I was after a low block with quick transitions to exploit space left by big teams who are pinning me in. Exactly what Felix said with Auba and Saka running onto passes into space. Am thinking I will switch Odegaard to AM/A rather than APM/A and Bennnacer to CM/D. I tried putting both cms to dm as I know 4231 is top heavy but they were too far away from oppo cms and missed quite a few balls which drop into midfield from oppo cbs.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Cam NBH

[Jack722]

6 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Counter Attacks are a special event that’s triggered within the match engine. It has it own rules and doesn’t relate to your other instructions. 

It’s most likely triggered when intercepting a pass while the other team is building up. So a more passive defensive Style with less pressing triggers can suit well

I agree with this. Remember that direct passing, pass into space and higher tempo are all "in possession instructions". They're nothing to do with in transition. Imagine your centrebacks on the half way line, having beaten the opposition press in a settled position... Do you want them playing more risky forward passes into space for your forwards? maybe you do. But if I'm away against a better side, I'd rather play safely in possession, and only take risks in transition, when the opposition have over commited. This is what the cautious mentality does. Safely also doesn't mean tiki taka, it means keep the ball with easy passes, until your being closed down and it becomes too risky to keep the ball, then you clear it. A higher mentality will try to play riskier passes under no pressure, and try to keep the ball when under significant pressure (instead of clear it).

There's also a big difference between an attacking team that utilises counter attacks (Liverpool under Klopp, R.Madrid under Mourinho..) and a more defensive team that wants to sit back and only attack on the counter. Seeing as the OP wants a secondary counter tactic, I'd assume he wants to play more like the second option.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Jack722

[Cam NBH]

16 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

But if I'm away against a better side, I'd rather play safely in possession, and only take risks in transition, when the opposition have over commited.

This is exactly what I want to do 

[FelixCAN]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Jack722:

I agree with this. Remember that direct passing, pass into space and higher tempo are all "in possession instructions". They're nothing to do with in transition. Imagine your centrebacks on the half way line, having beaten the opposition press in a settled position... Do you want them playing more risky forward passes into space for your forwards? maybe you do. But if I'm away against a better side, I'd rather play safely in possession, and only take risks in transition, when the opposition have over commited. This is what the cautious mentality does. Safely also doesn't mean tiki taka, it means keep the ball with easy passes, until your being closed down and it becomes too risky to keep the ball, then you clear it. A higher mentality will try to play riskier passes under no pressure, and try to keep the ball when under significant pressure (instead of clear it).

There's also a big difference between an attacking team that utilises counter attacks (Liverpool under Klopp, R.Madrid under Mourinho..) and a more defensive team that wants to sit back and only attack on the counter. Seeing as the OP wants a secondary counter tactic, I'd assume he wants to play more like the second option.

You'd want to attack when the opponent has their players thrown at you, their wingbacks in your half, the DM up at 30m. Get a quick pass to your winger or AF and boom. On Cautious you'll instruct the players to pass around more first, giving them time to get their players back into their position. If you like your team to pass the ball around and hoof it away or lose it to the opponent's high press, okay, that's your choice. But with a high probability it won't be more successful than exploiting the space given to you.

[Jack722]

16 minutes ago, FelixCAN said:

You'd want to attack when the opponent has their players thrown at you, their wingbacks in your half, the DM up at 30m. Get a quick pass to your winger or AF and boom. On Cautious you'll instruct the players to pass around more first, giving them time to get their players back into their position. If you like your team to pass the ball around and hoof it away or lose it to the opponent's high press, okay, that's your choice. But with a high probability it won't be more successful than exploiting the space given to you.

That is exactly what I said. And is based on what I've personally experienced watching full games, and on the opinions of people in the community I respect and trust. It looks like you're describing a defensive or very defensive mentality.

58 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

But if I'm away against a better side, I'd rather play safely in possession, and only take risks in transition, when the opposition have over commited. This is what the cautious mentality does.

Even if you 100% believe that the cautious mentality is implemented wrong, I'd rather go by what makes sense irl, and what SI are trying to do, than to try and read into the faults and intricacies of the ME (which changes every year slightly) so much. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Jack722

[Cam NBH]

1 hour ago, FelixCAN said:

The cautious mentality lowers all of the tempo and passing and willingness to take risks. It will cause the players to be not willing to play the space exploiting passes. It leads to empty possession that threatens nothing, while you will be pressed eventually and forced into hitting it long into a completely stable defense. But if you can show to us a system on cautious that significantly overperforms and gets Top 6 with a team like Villa, Southampton, Wolves, I'd be happy to add a different idea to my reservoir.

 

Would a possible solution be add take more risks on the better passers? Thinking Bennacer, Odegaard and White perhaps?

[glengarry224]

I think that both sides of this debate have good points.  You can successfully counter attack on 'cautious' but that mentality will lessen your counter attacking impetus.  It's always a trade off and depends upon your match plan.  Look at the individual mentalities of players with 'attack' duties:

• on 'balanced' mentality:
  • FB/WB/WCB =  individual mentality of 'positive'; and
  • all other positions/roles =  individual mentality of 'attacking'
• on 'cautious' mentality:
  • FB/WB/WCB =  individual mentality of 'balanced'; and
  • all other positions/roles =  individual mentality of 'positive'

I have noticed lower Xg and fewer opportunities if I lower the mentality of my counter-attacking tactics, but against superior and far superior opposition, it's sometimes the only way to avoid giving up a lot of chances.  Against superior teams, my primary plan might be to go for a draw, therefore keep a clean sheet and hope for a rare counter-attack, in which case I'll use a lower mentality.  I will sometimes start the match on a lower mentality, like 'cautious', planning to increase mentality after they tire or if I fall behind.

It depends upon your players too.  If your counter attacking tactic uses marauding WBs, and they are not great at tracking back and/or you have CBs who are not good enough in the air or marking against through balls, beware more aggressive mentalities because when your counter attack fails, a superior team, with good wingers, will immediately launch the ball up the flanks to wingers in tons of space.

 

[Cam NBH]

8 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

If your counter attacking tactic uses marauding WBs, and they are not great at tracking back and/or you have CBs who are not good enough in the air or marking against through balls, beware more aggressive mentalities because when your counter attack fails, a superior team, with good wingers, will immediately launch the ball up the flanks to wingers in tons of space.

 

I am hoping that my counters are 3 on 2 or 3 on 3 with my 3 forwards against oppo 2cbs and their deepest mf. Take Liverpool, Van Dijk, Matip and probably Fabinho would be the only ones back for them, pushed up to halfway. Then I want a quick direct pass into space for ESR, Saka and PEA to run onto.

 

Havent played for a few days but will give it a go soon and report back.

[Cam NBH]

So I played the game at home to chelsea twice. First one was my normal primary tactic. Outplayed them on xg, shots and pretty much everything except possession - mendy was motm and I lost 2-1. One of their goals was a pen reviewed by VAR and confirmed. I will carry on with this save of course.

 

Then I reloaded to test how the counter formation would play. Did pretty much everything else the same and it finished 1-1. I didnt create as many chances and Chelsea were the better team as expected, they dominated most areas. Still created decent chances though. There is something in this counter system!

 

On another note I feel Chelseas 343 is hard for me to play against as they have 4 in the middle versus my 3. Mount and Havertz constantly get free between the lines.

Thanks everyone for your help.