Dribbling decreasing with age and DM's never dodging tackles

[stopazricky]

I observed that Dribbling is the only technical attribute that is negatively affected by ageing, and I just can't grasp the reason why.

The thing is, older players obviously DO find it much harder to get past an opponent, but that has nothing to do with their technique getting worse (Dribbling, in FM, is in the Technical Attributes column).
Instead, in real life that's the case because going past a man requires physicality first and foremost. I initially thought the game had this down. By having, say, 18 Dribbling but 7 Acceleration and Agility, a player obviously wouldn't be able to pull off anything remarkable in that department, and that would possibly be the best simulation possible in this regard.

But then, I've seen Dribbling itself getting consistently worse in every ageing technical player I've managed, and imho it makes little sense because that also makes them worse at a few things that shouldn't become harder with age and where the technical aspect of Dribbling should still be the most valuable.

See, it all comes down to the definition of Dribbling. While the one given in-game isn't badly worded in and of itself, it sounds way too similar to the Agility one (at least the way it's phrased in Italian). And that's the point.

I don't claim to be an expert of football in any way, but I feel like there's essentially two kinds of "Dribbling": the progressive kind, which is all the technical gestures needed to create advantage to your team by going past an opponent (as in, the kind of dribbling you expect from offensive Wingers and Strikers), and what I would call the "elusive" dribbling, as in all the technical gestures required to dodge tackles and resist the opposition's pressing even possibly in your own half (the kind of dribbling you expect from Playmakers and even possibly Ball Playing Defenders).
The first kind requires acceleration, agility, balance, and can benefit from a player's strength. The second kind doesn't, or at least nowhere close to the same extent.

I kind of don't like the idea that players are getting worse at dodging sliding tackles because they are getting older, while in real life I've seen Pirlo and the likes do that with unbelievable efficiency until their very last day as pro footballers.

There's also a point being made about the Match Engine itself not emphasizing "elusive" dribbles enough. I've seen more tackles being dodged by Jorginho in the 20 minutes of the match he played an hour ago against Belgium than I have seen in 12 seasons of FM21 managing at top level with max highlights. But the guy has 12 Dribbling in-game if I'm not mistaken... so if that's not Dribbling, what do you call what he's doing week in, week out?

I'm hyped for FM22 because the new animations system of players on the ball makes me hope defensive dribbling becomes at least close to as relevant in the game as it is in real life. Everybody hopes for skill moves and stuff, but if I'm seeing a technically gifted player in the DM position pull of even just a few dribbles here and there, I'm going to scream in joy.

[kentonizking]

It comes down to the way FM models the decline of older players, too harshly in a lot of FM players opinions.

To see strength disappear after 33 sometimes is ludicrous. Especially when Bayo Akinfenwa keeps on going each year!

[Outsider23]

I think that anticipation is the most important attribute when it comes to evading challenges.

[keijo]

A bit beside the point, but I'm under the impression that the attribute "Dribbling" isn't actually what we'd intuitively think.  It indicates how well the player runs with the ball. To actually be good at dribbling, as in evading challenges, you also need to combine it with the speed, some agility, balance, flair, anticipation and maybe technique.

[IbrahimAliMaher]

To try and make a case for the counter argument, you could suggest that dribbling is about touch and technique but also speed of reactions. As a player ages their reaction speed could reduce slightly, meaning that previously a player would instinctively move the ball out of the path of a thrust of a defender, whereas if they lose even a tenth of a second they might just move the ball a bit slower and it gets nicked away.

To put forward a (not very typical) counter example, think of Ronaldo. When he was in his early 20s at Man Utd he was full of tricks and flicks. Nowadays although you could argue part of it is because he's lost a bit of pace/acceleration (though never really had any major injuries so not too much) he won't try and bamboozle a defender with quick feet as much as he used to, more run at them with pace and power.

In terms of the ongoing criticisms of player attribute decline with age, I could buy a drop off in some physical and technical stats but at the same time there should be a proportionate INCREASE in mental stats - vision, anticipation, teamwork should all improve to offset the drop off in other stats but they don't, or at least not enough. Heading, first touch, technique could arguably increase too, or at least not be subject to age related drops.

Edited October 12, 2021 by IbrahimAliMaher

[FM1000]

On 10/10/2021 at 17:54, stopazricky said:

I observed that Dribbling is the only technical attribute that is negatively affected by ageing, and I just can't grasp the reason why.

The thing is, older players obviously DO find it much harder to get past an opponent, but that has nothing to do with their technique getting worse (Dribbling, in FM, is in the Technical Attributes column).
Instead, in real life that's the case because going past a man requires physicality first and foremost. I initially thought the game had this down. By having, say, 18 Dribbling but 7 Acceleration and Agility, a player obviously wouldn't be able to pull off anything remarkable in that department, and that would possibly be the best simulation possible in this regard.

But then, I've seen Dribbling itself getting consistently worse in every ageing technical player I've managed, and imho it makes little sense because that also makes them worse at a few things that shouldn't become harder with age and where the technical aspect of Dribbling should still be the most valuable.

See, it all comes down to the definition of Dribbling. While the one given in-game isn't badly worded in and of itself, it sounds way too similar to the Agility one (at least the way it's phrased in Italian). And that's the point.

I don't claim to be an expert of football in any way, but I feel like there's essentially two kinds of "Dribbling": the progressive kind, which is all the technical gestures needed to create advantage to your team by going past an opponent (as in, the kind of dribbling you expect from offensive Wingers and Strikers), and what I would call the "elusive" dribbling, as in all the technical gestures required to dodge tackles and resist the opposition's pressing even possibly in your own half (the kind of dribbling you expect from Playmakers and even possibly Ball Playing Defenders).
The first kind requires acceleration, agility, balance, and can benefit from a player's strength. The second kind doesn't, or at least nowhere close to the same extent.

I kind of don't like the idea that players are getting worse at dodging sliding tackles because they are getting older, while in real life I've seen Pirlo and the likes do that with unbelievable efficiency until their very last day as pro footballers.

There's also a point being made about the Match Engine itself not emphasizing "elusive" dribbles enough. I've seen more tackles being dodged by Jorginho in the 20 minutes of the match he played an hour ago against Belgium than I have seen in 12 seasons of FM21 managing at top level with max highlights. But the guy has 12 Dribbling in-game if I'm not mistaken... so if that's not Dribbling, what do you call what he's doing week in, week out?

I'm hyped for FM22 because the new animations system of players on the ball makes me hope defensive dribbling becomes at least close to as relevant in the game as it is in real life. Everybody hopes for skill moves and stuff, but if I'm seeing a technically gifted player in the DM position pull of even just a few dribbles here and there, I'm going to scream in joy.

Also the slow kind of dribbling is not in the game! I mean the kind of one on one face to face dribbling wingers do against the fullback near the byline. Driblling from a standing still position is not in the game. 

Only dribbling I have seen is players running with the ball, if they stop then it's like the defender is a brick wall and they cannot use tricks/feints to try and move past him.

[stopazricky]

Il 11/10/2021 in 08:13 , kentonizking ha scritto:

It comes down to the way FM models the decline of older players, too harshly in a lot of FM players opinions.

Yes and No. Yes because, as you point out, that's a known problem, but also I feel that Dribbling, as a technical attribute, should pretty much never decline (or, at least, not because of ageing).
 

Il 12/10/2021 in 21:58 , IbrahimAliMaher ha scritto:

To try and make a case for the counter argument, you could suggest that dribbling is about touch and technique but also speed of reactions. As a player ages their reaction speed could reduce slightly, meaning that previously a player would instinctively move the ball out of the path of a thrust of a defender, whereas if they lose even a tenth of a second they might just move the ball a bit slower and it gets nicked away.

To put forward a (not very typical) counter example, think of Ronaldo. When he was in his early 20s at Man Utd he was full of tricks and flicks. Nowadays although you could argue part of it is because he's lost a bit of pace/acceleration (though never really had any major injuries so not too much) he won't try and bamboozle a defender with quick feet as much as he used to, more run at them with pace and power.

So, first of all, thank you for the contribution. Reflexes getting worse with age is something I kind of considered, but dismissed as not being relevant until much after the typical footballer's career span. I still hold my initial assessment just as true, but I agree I need to elaborate on that and make more examples. Also, if anyone's familiar with other sports where reflexes are key (F1?), I'd appreciate them weighing in.

First, let's address Ronaldo. 
I feel like his change in playstyle has not been influenced by his ball control getting any worse. What I've been observing in his years in Juve is that it was just as impossible for most defenders to tackle the ball away from him as it was in 2008. However, what changed is that his gestures on the ball never accomplished a whole lot anymore, because Ronaldo could not sprint past the opponent he just tricked into tackling. If any defender went full pace towards Ronaldo today, he would be met with the same fate as fifteen years ago. However, if they stand their ground, Ronaldo can't pull anything off because he can't accelerate as much as he used to.
Also, the lack of Dribbling can also be explained by his position and role gradually shifting over the years. He is now essentially a Poacher (although he does drop deep from time to time, only to do a step over, fail to accomplish anything remarkable with it, pass the ball back, and get forward). The kind of player who's lethal in the box is not the same kind of player than can dribble and get assists. Dribbling is a way to create chances, and Ronaldo doesn't create chances anymore (look at Juve v Porto), he just finishes them with unbelievable reliability. I could go on and on about my take on why this shift has happened but that's besides the point.

What I mean about Ronaldo is that I don't think he's gotten any worse on the technical side or on reflexes, I just believe that he's physically worse and that he plays a role where dribbling is a rare occurrence anyway. The most obvious counterexample proving my point is Messi. His ability to teleport the ball a specific number of centimetres away to avoid a tackle is the same it's always been. However, while a few years ago you could see him sprinting for 40 metres and dribbling past any defender on his way, he now just can't do that. But you can still see that when his possession is challenged, it's still next to impossible for the opponent to get the ball. Messi is 2 years younger than Ronaldo, but he's pulling off many more dribbles per 90 than Ronaldo did 2 years ago, which also reinforces my argument about it being more of a playstyle thing.

Other examples, other then the aforementioned Pirlo and Jorginho, are Ribery and Iniesta. Both of them were getting very old, so their reflexes are supposed to be getting worse as well, but good luck tackling those guys. I mean, Ribery is still playing in Serie A today!

To sum this all up, these are all guys that can't get past an opponent (anymore), but still have Ballon D'Or-like ability to dodge tackles and resist pressing. In FM, I feel like not only the age-dependent decline in Dribbling essentially makes this impossible to replicate in a theoretical way, but also in practice, as the Match Engine itself doesn't show or emphasize this kind of technical gestures nearly as much as it should. To phrase this a little differently, after playing on max highlights for a dozen of seasons in FM21, it looks like Dribbling is only relevant in the opposition's half while progressing the ball, and that's not realistic in my humble opinion.

[stopazricky]

Hey guys, now that the Beta is out, I was wondering how is it looking regarding this corcern of mine.

Are technical DLP's/Registas in the DM position sometimes dribbling their way out of the newly rehashed pressing, or is it (still) never happening? Are older and/or more defensively-minded technical players now making use of their Dribbling stat?

[stopazricky]

Il 22/10/2021 in 22:34 , stopazricky ha scritto:

Hey guys, now that the Beta is out, I was wondering how is it looking regarding this corcern of mine.

Are technical DLP's/Registas in the DM position sometimes dribbling their way out of the newly rehashed pressing, or is it (still) never happening? Are older and/or more defensively-minded technical players now making use of their Dribbling stat?

Well guys, now that the full game has been out for a while, I'ld love to know your experience with this. Are your technical DLP's doding tackles and making use of their technique in the middle of the pitch to avoid pressure, or is Dribbling still only happening in the final third?