Help with this 433

[Kim Bensin]

Hi everyone! I need some help with this tactic. What do you guys think of my roles, duties and TI's? I've started off really good with this tactic, but I struggle to score goals against sides that just sit back. I've also had a couple of draws here and there, and we are not as good as in the beginning. Thanks for all the feedback. 

[Experienced Defender]

Your setup of roles and duties is not optimally suited for a short-passing style of play, so that's the first problem IMO. 

Questions: why the "dribble less" instruction? What's the reasoning behind it? What style of football are you actually looking to play?

Anyway, given that you are 1st in the league, I would not rush into changing the tactic. 

[Kim Bensin]

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Your setup of roles and duties is not optimally suited for a short-passing style of play, so that's the first problem IMO. 

Questions: why the "dribble less" instruction? What's the reasoning behind it? What style of football are you actually looking to play?

Anyway, given that you are 1st in the league, I would not rush into changing the tactic. 

 

Hey. Thanks for reply. How is my roles not suited for short passing? I have my playmaker on more direct passing. Drible less cause I found my players dribble and loosing the ball a lot in a game. I take all help I can get.

 

[Experienced Defender]

8 minutes ago, Kim Bensin said:

How is my roles not suited for short passing?

Because:

- short-passing styles require the fullbacks/wing-backs to consistently support their wide partners in advanced stages of attack, and the FB on support duty is not attack-minded enough as a role for that purpose

- instead of both running roles in central midfield, you need one of them to act as a ball-recycling option when needed

- when played on the attacking duty, the AP is a lot more suited for fast-transition styles than short-passing, possession-first ones

- in such style of play, the lone striker needs to be more involved in build-up play and closer to the midfield, preferably on support duty (the AF is the total opposite of that) 

16 minutes ago, Kim Bensin said:

Drible less cause I found my players dribble and loosing the ball a lot in a game

Primarily because your current setup of roles and duties does not provide them with safe and viable passing options on a consistent basis. The setup of roles and duties is key. Only when you sort roles and duties out in a logical and balanced way, instructions can be effective. Otherwise, they won't work the way are supposed to.

[Kim Bensin]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because:

- short-passing styles require the fullbacks/wing-backs to consistently support their wide partners in advanced stages of attack, and the FB on support duty is not attack-minded enough as a role for that purpose

- instead of both running roles in central midfield, you need one of them to act as a ball-recycling option when needed

- when played on the attacking duty, the AP is a lot more suited for fast-transition styles than short-passing, possession-first ones

- in such style of play, the lone striker needs to be more involved in build-up play and closer to the midfield, preferably on support duty (the AF is the total opposite of that) 

Primarily because your current setup of roles and duties does not provide them with safe and viable passing options on a consistent basis. The setup of roles and duties is key. Only when you sort roles and duties out in a logical and balanced way, instructions can be effective. Otherwise, they won't work the way are supposed to.

Thanks! How would you set it up? I wan’t to control matches and create more chances against weaker sides. And what about tempo? 

[Kim Bensin]

And would «hold shape» make more sense than counter when trying to control matches?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Kim Bensin said:

How would you set it up? I wan’t to control matches and create more chances against weaker sides

If you want a possession-oriented tactic, this is a setup you can start with:

DLFsu

IFat                               IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBsu  CDde  CDco  WBsu

SKde 

It provides all the elements that such style of play requires. 

1 hour ago, Kim Bensin said:

And what about tempo?

When it comes to instructions, it's always the best option to use only a couple basic ones that suit your intended style of play. Everything else, including the tempo, can be tweaked later in the process if needed for a particular situation. 

 

1 hour ago, Kim Bensin said:

And would «hold shape» make more sense than counter when trying to control matches?

Hold shape definitely makes more sense than counter in a possession-oriented tactical style. However, you don't have to use either. I personally would leave both unselected. As with tempo, you can tweak as you see fit.

Therefore, these would be my starting instructions for your tactical style:

mentality - positive

in possession - shorter passing & play out of defence

in transition - nothing

out of possession - higher D-line + split block (involving the front 3 + mezzala)

Quite simple. 

[Prolix]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- short-passing styles require the fullbacks/wing-backs to consistently support their wide partners in advanced stages of attack, and the FB on support duty is not attack-minded enough as a role for that purpose

Came here to say this. 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Hold shape definitely makes more sense than counter in a possession-oriented tactical style.

There's two schools of thought on this: 1. "hold position" naturally dovetails with a passing approach, or 2. "counter" is a useful 'contradiction' that encourages changes in play/tempo when your players decide it's appropriate. 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

However, you don't have to use either. I personally would leave both unselected. As with tempo, you can tweak as you see fit.

...which means this is perhaps the best of both worlds.

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want a possession-oriented tactic, this is a setup you can start with:

DLFsu

IFat                               IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBsu  CDde  CDco  WBsu

SKde 

A minor change you could make would be to switch the DLP-s to an AP-s when the situation suggests that two holding midfielders is unnecessary. [I've played an AP-s next to a holding midfielder as the double pivot of a 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams and the team was still stable/solid.]

Anyway, I agree with @Experienced Defenderthat instructions like Counter, Low Crosses, Dribble Less, Higher Tempo, and Distribute to Fullbacks may hinder your options when used as default rules for your team without accomplishing an explicit tactical objective. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Prolix

[Kim Bensin]

Thank you guys so much! It really helps a lot. Will try to tweak some roles here and there. I have so much to learn about this game. Hope we can maintain the great form! 🙌🏼

[Kim Bensin]

Btw; if I wanted to keep the roles like it is, how would you want to change the TI’s? I just wonder so I can learn about the roles and the duties. Would more direct, hit early crosses, lower line of engagement and so on be a good start? And also mixed crosses?

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Kim Bensin said:

if I wanted to keep the roles like it is, how would you want to change the TI’s?

You mean your current setup of roles and duties (without the tweaks I suggested)? 

[Kim Bensin]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

You mean your current setup of roles and duties (without the tweaks I suggested)? 

Yes. What I mean was that do my roles and duties make sense for another style of play? If so, how should my TI’s work?

[Experienced Defender]

31 minutes ago, Kim Bensin said:

Yes. What I mean was that do my roles and duties make sense for another style of play?

The problem is that your current setup is not optimally balanced regardless of any particular style. It might work in a faster and more direct style, but I fear it won't be on a consistent basis. 

But anyway, you can give it a try and see. Maybe it will work.

[nully29]

Remove low crosses. It usually fails.

Drop mentality to balanced and tempo to standard

Change BPD to CDd

Change AP to CMat

Change Wsu to Wat

Change FBs to WBsu

[Hilly1979]

4 hours ago, nully29 said:

Remove low crosses. It usually fails.

Drop mentality to balanced and tempo to standard

Change BPD to CDd

Change AP to CMat

Change Wsu to Wat

Change FBs to WBsu

It’s ok saying change this change that but are you going to offer the guy an explanation why??

 

[nully29]

17 minutes ago, Hilly1979 said:

It’s ok saying change this change that but are you going to offer the guy an explanation why??

 

Yup, I figured I should keep it concise and focus on some actionable advice.

Nonetheless, low crosses are bound to fail when defenders sit back.

BPD is good for launching long balls into counters/spaces, but when ops sit back, BPD is less useful.

Advanced playmaker is a ball magnet and since the point is to stretch opponents' deep defensive lines, having a ball magnet in center may be counter-productive.

Conversely, wingers should stretch the opposition and thus need to be on attacking duty. For the same reason you could use more aggressive wide defenders, hence change them from FBsu to WBsu. They would need to support - rather than attack - because they need to cross from deep to the far post and also offer a passing outlet to recycle possession.

Dropping mentality and tempo should result in more methodical surgical piercing of ops deep defensive lines. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by nully29

[Kim Bensin]

@Rashidi