Need tactic help - 442 Direct Counter

[brandon.moocarme]

I'm trying to play a direct, counter-attacking 442 with my Welling side in the Vanarama National League. I made this tactic which got me promoted from the Vanarama South finishing second and we played good football scoring the most goals in the league. Second season I was predicted 24th but surprisingly with the same tactic I was 2nd by Jan. Now the tactic is pretty much ineffective, we get hardly any shots off and concede loads. My aim is to play a low block, and when winning the ball back either play directly to my target man to hold it up and bring my wide men, strikers and midfield in to play, or clear to the wide men who drive us up the pitch either through dribbling or interplay with mids + strikers. All we seem to do when we win it back is hoof it aimlessly, whereas before we actually showed some nice passing plays and overlaps. In defence I concede every type of goal, we can't stop crosses coming in and centre backs don't challenge for headers despite being good in the air and being right next to the striker, and opp teams easily pop the ball around us in the middle and work an opening, or if there's no opening they take a long shot instead which goes in. I'd love some advice on fixes for these issues. 

[Ruskin]

I am no tactical expert, but consider the merits of of the following--

You are playing too deep in your own half and inviting your opponent to play right outside your goal.  Raise your defensive line to standard/higher, depending upon the quality of your CDs compared to the league.  Shift LOE to Lower (not much lower).  This will keep you compact, provide more of a mid-block so that you can challenge for and win the ball back higher up the pitch.  I would put both my CDs on Defend duty, and shift your defense width to force opponents outside.  If you have tall defenders, with good jumping and heading, they should be able to deal with crosses just fine.  I also use the offside trap TI.

There are some other issues with the TIs you are using and duties/roles, but Experienced Defender and others will have the best advice to offer in that area.

 

[frukox]

Let me give you a couple of tips:)

1)Your TM might be too deep to support your AF in the early phases of your attack.

2) Who is going to use the space your left winger cutting inside vacates? WBD can only do this when there is little to no risk.

3) Two CMs are needed to support play in different phases of transitions. Your CMD is not likely to support play on the left flank. 

4) Who is going to stretch play on the right in the early phases of attacking transitions? Your right winger might be a tad deeper than you'd like.

5) Establishing a proactive but disciplined low block is always hard but when you defend around your penalty area(Lower DL+Much Lower LOE) without any added instructions is really tricky not to concede goals from afar or open play. If your defenders are good at defending crosses, going in hard, not that slow, your low block may be better with these instructions:

Force Opposition Outside, Tight Marking, Get Stuck In, Lower LOE and More Urgent Pressing or if you find it risky add more urgent closing down to your strikers to force earlier turnovers.

 

[brandon.moocarme]

1 hour ago, Ruskin said:

I am no tactical expert, but consider the merits of of the following--

You are playing too deep in your own half and inviting your opponent to play right outside your goal.  Raise your defensive line to standard/higher, depending upon the quality of your CDs compared to the league.  Shift LOE to Lower (not much lower).  This will keep you compact, provide more of a mid-block so that you can challenge for and win the ball back higher up the pitch.  I would put both my CDs on Defend duty, and shift your defense width to force opponents outside.  If you have tall defenders, with good jumping and heading, they should be able to deal with crosses just fine.  I also use the offside trap TI.

There are some other issues with the TIs you are using and duties/roles, but Experienced Defender and others will have the best advice to offer in that area.

 

Thanks for your reply, I have tried to play a little higher up on standard but then teams just play a simple ball over the top of my defence to their striker and my CB's aren't the quickest. I have also tried setting defence to narrow but then all my defenders just bunch up really close together and leave loads of space for their wide men in the box for an easy shot on goal. I will try playing the offside trap on standard depth which I haven't tried yet.

[brandon.moocarme]

1 hour ago, frukox said:

Let me give you a couple of tips:)

1)Your TM might be too deep to support your AF in the early phases of your attack.

2) Who is going to use the space your left winger cutting inside vacates? WBD can only do this when there is little to no risk.

3) Two CMs are needed to support play in different phases of transitions. Your CMD is not likely to support play on the left flank. 

4) Who is going to stretch play on the right in the early phases of attacking transitions? Your right winger might be a tad deeper than you'd like.

5) Establishing a proactive but disciplined low block is always hard but when you defend around your penalty area(Lower DL+Much Lower LOE) without any added instructions is really tricky not to concede goals from afar or open play. If your defenders are good at defending crosses, going in hard, not that slow, your low block may be better with these instructions:

Force Opposition Outside, Tight Marking, Get Stuck In, Lower LOE and More Urgent Pressing or if you find it risky add more urgent closing down to your strikers to force earlier turnovers.

 

Thanks for your reply

1) Would a TM on attack be a better option?

2) I chose WBD as I didn't want my whole left side exposed to counters if both bomb forward, that was also my thinking behind the more defensive CM on that side to cover for when the LWB does go forward. Would a fullback on support be better with specific player instructions to get forward?

3) Do you think switching the DLP to support would help? I worry about leaving too much space in front of my back four

4) I agree, maybe a wide midfielder on attack duty with PI's to stay wider and get further forward would be better

5) Tbh this tactic was mainly chosen as a way to compensate for having bad defenders but having some speed in the wide areas and two good strikers. I thought sitting deep and packing more bodies in the box would help in defending the box but it hasn't worked out. I will try with those team instructions though.

[frukox]

41 minutes ago, brandon.moocarme said:

Thanks for your reply

1) Would a TM on attack be a better option?

2) I chose WBD as I didn't want my whole left side exposed to counters if both bomb forward, that was also my thinking behind the more defensive CM on that side to cover for when the LWB does go forward. Would a fullback on support be better with specific player instructions to get forward?

3) Do you think switching the DLP to support would help? I worry about leaving too much space in front of my back four

4) I agree, maybe a wide midfielder on attack duty with PI's to stay wider and get further forward would be better

5) Tbh this tactic was mainly chosen as a way to compensate for having bad defenders but having some speed in the wide areas and two good strikers. I thought sitting deep and packing more bodies in the box would help in defending the box but it hasn't worked out. I will try with those team instructions though.

1) Try this and report how it works.

2) FB is less agressive than a WBS by nature but try both of them to see how they interact with the rest of the roles there.

3) Of course. Then, you can drop both of your CMs to DM strata and can utilize DLP(S) with a DMS or VOLS there.

4)Yeah, it can work. Try it .You can't know without doing it, right?:)

5) Then, 4-4-2 with 2 DM can make it easier for you to hit teams on the break. 2 DM can compensate the weaknesses of CBs and draw teams more into your half just to send those lovely balls for your strikers into a huge space behind their defensive line especially if the opposition commit their fullbacks to attack.

Edited January 7, 2021 by frukox

[brandon.moocarme]

13 minutes ago, frukox said:

1) Try this and report how it works.

2) FB is less agressive than a WBS by nature but try both of them to see how they interact with the rest of the roles there.

3) Of course. Then, you can drop both of your CMs to DM strata and can utilize DLP(S) with a DMS or VOLS there.

4)Yeah, it can work. Try it .You can't know without doing it, right?:)

5) Then, 4-4-2 with 2 DM can make it easier for you to hit teams on the break. 2 DM can compensate the weaknesses of CBs and draw teams more into your half just to send those lovely balls for your strikers into a huge space behind their defensive line.

Thanks, I just tried 442 with 2 DM's, it was a tough away game I expected to lose but we played better than I expected and made some good chances. All three goals conceded were from crosses however, I just can't work out how to stop them coming in or how to defend them. 

[Experienced Defender]

Quick (and somewhat incomplete) tips for counter-attacking football in a 442 formation:

- play both strikers on attack duties (i.e. switch the TM's duty to attack)

- if you use a playmaker (role) - which is not necessary btw - do not play him on defend duty (referring to your DLP, of course)

- wide(r) attacking width looks like an entirely unnecessary instruction to me (unless you have some really good reason/explanation why you are using it in this kind of tactic)

[frukox]

6 hours ago, brandon.moocarme said:

Thanks, I just tried 442 with 2 DM's, it was a tough away game I expected to lose but we played better than I expected and made some good chances. All three goals conceded were from crosses however, I just can't work out how to stop them coming in or how to defend them. 

This may be a sign of the possibility that your team can't play the low block efficiently because your at least eight players have to good at defending(anticipation, concentration, positioning, jumping reach, bravery, some aggression, marking, heading, tackling, strength, teamwork, etc) at least one of the midfield players needs to be able to pass the ball under pressure(first touch, passing, composure, decisions, vision, balance, agility without a turnover while your wingers and strikers need to fast, fit, able to control the ball and dribble with it and hard-working at least because you are in a low block-they are going to go up and down the pitch quite a lot and you don't want them to lose the balls too easily and make the most of your setpieces routines. So make sure you set them up manually. You can get more information about the requirements of the blocks and how to create them from this video. It's made for FM19 but imo it's still relevant for the past and future iterations of this game.

 

[brandon.moocarme]

22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Quick (and somewhat incomplete) tips for counter-attacking football in a 442 formation:

- play both strikers on attack duties (i.e. switch the TM's duty to attack)

- if you use a playmaker (role) - which is not necessary btw - do not play him on defend duty (referring to your DLP, of course)

- wide(r) attacking width looks like an entirely unnecessary instruction to me (unless you have some really good reason/explanation why you are using it in this kind of tactic)

Thanks for your advice, have tried playing target man on attack will see how that works out over a few matches, the playmaker role was due to the fact I have a pretty good passer in midfield and wanted him maintaining his position and making some penetrative passes, will switch him to a dlp (s). The wider attacking width was in order to utilise the wide men who are fairly quick, any tips on bringing them into play more? I'd be interested how you'd set the same tactic up

[brandon.moocarme]

18 hours ago, frukox said:

This may be a sign of the possibility that your team can't play the low block efficiently because your at least eight players have to good at defending(anticipation, concentration, positioning, jumping reach, bravery, some aggression, marking, heading, tackling, strength, teamwork, etc) at least one of the midfield players needs to be able to pass the ball under pressure(first touch, passing, composure, decisions, vision, balance, agility without a turnover while your wingers and strikers need to fast, fit, able to control the ball and dribble with it and hard-working at least because you are in a low block-they are going to go up and down the pitch quite a lot and you don't want them to lose the balls too easily and make the most of your setpieces routines. So make sure you set them up manually. You can get more information about the requirements of the blocks and how to create them from this video. It's made for FM19 but imo it's still relevant for the past and future iterations of this game.

 

Thanks for that video, it's frustrating because I'm clearly the underdog in all my matches but I know I can get good results out of this team as evidenced by my last seasons performance I just can't seem to get it now. If not playing in a low block I can't really see how to set up defensively as anything that moves our D line further forward is pretty much suicide for balls in behind.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, brandon.moocarme said:

The wider attacking width was in order to utilise the wide men who are fairly quick, any tips on bringing them into play more?

Maybe Focus play down the flanks paired with slightly narrower attacking width  

 

1 hour ago, brandon.moocarme said:

I'd be interested how you'd set the same tactic up

As I always prefer to keep tactics as simple as possible, this would be my starting point for a simple direct counter-attacking 442 tactic:

TMat    AF

IWsu   BWMde*  DLPsu   Wsu

WBaut  CDde  CDde   WBaut

GK/SKde

* BWM on defend can be switched to a CM on defend (depending on the player you play there as well as things you notice during your team matches.

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - slightly more direct, higher tempo and early crosses

In transition - counter (and possibly regroup, but not necessarily always)

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in (and possibly defend narrower/force oppo outside, depending on your defense's aerial capabilities)

Everything else would be small occasional tweaks based on a given situation. 

P.S: Keep in mind though that counter-attacking tactics can hardly work or be effective in every single match, even when the tactic itself is "perfectly" designed. Simply because not every opponent will be attack-minded against you. Which means that you need to have a plan-B tactic as well.

[frukox]

8 hours ago, brandon.moocarme said:

Thanks for that video, it's frustrating because I'm clearly the underdog in all my matches but I know I can get good results out of this team as evidenced by my last seasons performance I just can't seem to get it now. If not playing in a low block I can't really see how to set up defensively as anything that moves our D line further forward is pretty much suicide for balls in behind.

As ED advised just do what h suggested + maybe More Urgent Closing Down or strikers with Close Down More for the defensive style it should work. Your team is going to wait until the opponent in front of your defensive third and then start to press to get the ball. When they manage it, as there should be a lot of space behind their defensive line. Exploit it with attack duty striker and maybe an attack duty winger if you like taking some risks;)

[Novem9]

В 07.01.2021 в 20:35, brandon.moocarme сказал:

I'm trying to play a direct, counter-attacking 442 with my Welling side in the Vanarama National League. I made this tactic which got me promoted from the Vanarama South finishing second and we played good football scoring the most goals in the league. Second season I was predicted 24th but surprisingly with the same tactic I was 2nd by Jan. Now the tactic is pretty much ineffective, we get hardly any shots off and concede loads. My aim is to play a low block, and when winning the ball back either play directly to my target man to hold it up and bring my wide men, strikers and midfield in to play, or clear to the wide men who drive us up the pitch either through dribbling or interplay with mids + strikers. All we seem to do when we win it back is hoof it aimlessly, whereas before we actually showed some nice passing plays and overlaps. In defence I concede every type of goal, we can't stop crosses coming in and centre backs don't challenge for headers despite being good in the air and being right next to the striker, and opp teams easily pop the ball around us in the middle and work an opening, or if there's no opening they take a long shot instead which goes in. I'd love some advice on fixes for these issues. 

I guess its need to set balanced passing, disable regroup and set balanced DL. LOE is -1, not -2 and change it during game context (not much freedom for opposite team in own half)

And use run at defence

Mentality depending on opposite side

Edited January 9, 2021 by Novem9