Tactic help

[Arsenal457]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you are "doing quite well", why would you care how many goals have your best scorer scored and compare him to another team's top scorer? I apologize to @pheelf for "replying" to a post addressed to him, but this actually was not a reply (answer) to @Arsenal457's question, but rather my rhetorical question I couldn't help asking 

Well the strikers don’t seem to do much but sit there. And if I could figure out how to get them to score more, maybe I could win by more and play better.

[Experienced Defender]

Well, in lone-striker systems like yours (4231), the single striker on attack duty can find himself isolated from the rest of the team and is thus hardly available for a pass which he could put to more effective use, given that he will be heavily surrounded by opposition defense. So he tends to move into wider or deeper positions in order to be more involved, but in those positions he does not represent an as effective goal threat. And your lone striker is not only on attack duty, but also in the most attacking (advanced) of all striker roles, so it makes his isolation even worse. Plus, he's the only player on attack duty in your system, further compounding the problem. This does not mean that the lone striker cannot (or should not) be on attack duty, but then you need to consider giving him some deeper role (ideally DLF on attack or PF on attack) and having one of the wide forwards (AMR or AML) also on attack duty to interact more with him and thus make it harder for opposition to defend against. But when you change any role and/or duty, you always need to consider how it affects the other elements of the tactic, especially in terms of overall balance and defensive stability. 

And all this is just a small part of the equation, there is a lot more you have to think about (how you create space for the forwards, how are they going to utilize that space, how you cover defensively for those bombing forward etc.)

[Hovis Dexter]

7 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

Where do I find that?

 Here’s a link to the topic. There’s a download link in the first post

 

[Arsenal457]

On 26/04/2019 at 22:54, Hovis Dexter said:

 Here’s a link to the topic. There’s a download link in the first post

 

Cheers 

[Arsenal457]

On 26/04/2019 at 21:55, Experienced Defender said:

Well, in lone-striker systems like yours (4231), the single striker on attack duty can find himself isolated from the rest of the team and is thus hardly available for a pass which he could put to more effective use, given that he will be heavily surrounded by opposition defense. So he tends to move into wider or deeper positions in order to be more involved, but in those positions he does not represent an as effective goal threat. And your lone striker is not only on attack duty, but also in the most attacking (advanced) of all striker roles, so it makes his isolation even worse. Plus, he's the only player on attack duty in your system, further compounding the problem. This does not mean that the lone striker cannot (or should not) be on attack duty, but then you need to consider giving him some deeper role (ideally DLF on attack or PF on attack) and having one of the wide forwards (AMR or AML) also on attack duty to interact more with him and thus make it harder for opposition to defend against. But when you change any role and/or duty, you always need to consider how it affects the other elements of the tactic, especially in terms of overall balance and defensive stability. 

And all this is just a small part of the equation, there is a lot more you have to think about (how you create space for the forwards, how are they going to utilize that space, how you cover defensively for those bombing forward etc.)

Alright, I’ll change this up and think how it effects things. What would happen if I made the AML and AMR on the attack duty for inside forward and winger respectively. Would I be too defensively weak? For future, how do I make use of AF (a) as they never see, to do much for me, but my tactics are probably wrong for them.

[Experienced Defender]

16 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

What would happen if I made the AML and AMR on the attack duty for inside forward and winger respectively. Would I be too defensively weak?

I would strongly recommend against playing both wide forwards (AMR & AML) on attack duty, especially in a top-heavy system such as 4231. One should be on attack, the other on support. Which one should play which role and duty depends on how you set up the rest, which in turn depends on who you play in which position/role. 

 

21 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

how do I make use of AF (a) as they never see, to do much for me, but my tactics are probably wrong for them

AF generally works better in two-striker systems. Depending on your style of play, he can be paired with an F9, DLF on support, PF on support or TM on support. In your 4231 system, if you play Aubameyang as the lone striker, my preference would be a PF on attack duty. AF could be an option if you played a more counter-attacking style, but that would require a lot different tactic than the one you currently use.

As for defensive instructions, I would advise you to drop the LOE a notch (to standard) in order to get more vertical compactness, and instead add the Prevent short GKD (since you have enough players up front to put pressure on opposition defense and prevent them from building from the back). More urgent pressing can also be needlessly risky, especially as you already use counter-press (which for its part can be risky against other top teams). So leave pressing urgency to default.

In transition, I would definitely add Counter, considering speed you have up front (most notably in Aubameyang).

 

[Arsenal457]

28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

AF generally works better in two-striker systems. Depending on your style of play, he can be paired with an F9, DLF on support, PF on support or TM on support. In your 4231 system, if you play Aubameyang as the lone striker, my preference would be a PF on attack duty. AF could be an option if you played a more counter-attacking style, but that would require a lot different tactic than the one you currently use.

As for defensive instructions, I would advise you to drop the LOE a notch (to standard) in order to get more vertical compactness, and instead add the Prevent short GKD (since you have enough players up front to put pressure on opposition defense and prevent them from building from the back). More urgent pressing can also be needlessly risky, especially as you already use counter-press (which for its part can be risky against other top teams). So leave pressing urgency to default.

In transition, I would definitely add Counter, considering speed you have up front (most notably in Aubameyang).

 

Thanks for this advice, I will change that now and see how I go

[Arsenal457]

It hasn’t really been working well. I’ve tried the PF and the DLP both on attack, and my losing streak is getting bigger and bigger. Would putting the AP (CAM) onto attack be worth a try? I also keep being told I keep losing possession in opposition half.

[pheelf]

1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

It hasn’t really been working well. I’ve tried the PF and the DLP both on attack, and my losing streak is getting bigger and bigger. Would putting the AP (CAM) onto attack be worth a try? I also keep being told I keep losing possession in opposition half.

Would it be possible for you to post a screenshot of the current tactic that you are using?

In addition, I feel you need to provide a bit of context also. Are the games you are losing games where you are favourites or underdogs? Perhaps you can post a screenshot of your fixture list also along with the pre-match odds if that is possible.

You also need to do a bit of analysis in order to determine why certain things are occurring which can only really be done by reviewing the matches. I think it's best you do that retrospectively without the pressure of playing a live match in order to spot patterns and see what is working as you'd like and what's not especially when on a bad run.

You have been given a great clue as you have been told that your team keeps losing possession in the opposition half. 

From my perspective, there could a number of reasons behind why that is happening although only your analysis of the games can definitively supply the answer and such I can only speculate.

- Your forward players are attempting a lot of dribbles and are failing as your players are running into defenders and don't have space

- Passes are being misplaced which could be a consequence of having limited options for the player on the ball or having players outside of the range of passing you select for the team (TI - Shorter Passing)

- The team is rushing the play (an effect of playing on a higher mentality which has a higher tempo) and as a result, your players aren't able to find space as they haven't the time to do that

- Your forward players have poor attributes for playing a possession-based style of play. For e.g. poor off the ball and first touch. 

- It could even be affected by having inconsistent players or players that wilt in big matches

I'd also review why you have chosen the 4-2-3-1 shape. I personally don't feel that formation is best suited to a possession style tactic given the spread of players in the final third. It is important in my opinion to have your ducks in a row when it comes to building a tactic. What I mean by that is that all aspects of the tactic should work in tandem and not conflict.

For e.g., If I decided that I wanted to play a possession style there are a number of aspects I would need to think about

1) Are the players' attributes suited to that style of play? Are the players I expect to attack adept at finding space and controlling the ball quickly? Do the players I expect to be involved in supporting attacking moves have the required vision and passing ability?

2) What formation allows me to dominate the central areas where I want to have the ball?

3) What types of roles are suited to that style of play and do I have players with the required attributes to be effective in those roles?

4) How do I expect my players to contribute to each phase of play?

5) What's Plan B if I'm finding that the style of play is being nullified by the opposition?

If you are having real difficulty analyzing the matches it might be helpful for you if you post some .pkms of the games along with the tactic used in those games and see if others can provide a bit of analysis for you. Incidentally, when you selected to be the manager of Arsenal did you pick coaching badges/experience in line with the club?

Best Regards

[Arsenal457]

@pheelf Here is a screenshot of my best XI, my fixtures in the past few months, the ladder, and a few stats. If you can’t tell, my players don’t know what a dribble is. I actually reworked my tactics as of half hour ago, in the recent game against Huddersfield where I won 3-0 as you can probably see. I was competing for the title at one point, but until I pulled a few wins I was actually almost in 7th, in 6th only on goal difference. If you can’t tell I’m Arsenal, so in my first season, most games should be favourable to me.

[pheelf]

30 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

@pheelf Here is a screenshot of my best XI, my fixtures in the past few months, the ladder, and a few stats. If you can’t tell, my players don’t know what a dribble is. I actually reworked my tactics as of half hour ago, in the recent game against Huddersfield where I won 3-0 as you can probably see. I was competing for the title at one point, but until I pulled a few wins I was actually almost in 7th, in 6th only on goal difference. If you can’t tell I’m Arsenal, so in my first season, most games should be favourable to me.

The tactic

Remember what I wrote about having all your ducks in a row. To me, it appears that you have a number of things which are conflicting with each other. You want to play a short, patient passing game but have selected players in roles that have duties which are going to be very aggressive with their forward movements (just check the individual mentality of the AF for instance). The 4-2-3-1 is going to see two of your front 4 out wide when they haven't got the ball which isn't going to help them to get involved in the game.  

Incidentally, why don't you want your players to dribble and take defenders on when you have selected 5 roles in the team who want to do just that? If you aren't allowing players like Iwobi and Bellerin to run at defenders or cross the ball (Work the Ball Into Box) then why are you playing them in roles whose whole purpose is to do that? It seems to me that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place and you need to really solidify in your mind how you want to play and gear everything (formation. roles and duties) towards that. As it stands the tactic is a bit of a mishmash and you aren't playing to the strengths of the roles you are selecting. For e.g. an Advanced Forward wants to be fed the ball early after possession is won when there is more chance he has space to operate in given that defenders will not have recovered their defensive shape and is a role which is suited to a more counter-attacking approach. In your system, you are playing slower, shorter passing which is an environment which he is unlikely to thrive in.

The results

To be honest you are pretty much doing what Arsenal are doing in real life (the exception being the points thresholds are far lower). In fact, the similarities are quite striking, to be honest. The only results which look out of place to me are the Leicester, Newcastle and Bournemouth defeats at home and perhaps the penalty defeat to Cardiff but outside of that there isn't anything overly strange there. At the beginning of the season, what was the predicted finish for Arsenal? Last season they finished 6th so you're roughly in the same area as then and considering that you haven't strengthened the squad significantly it's pretty much how it should be playing out. In terms of most games being favourable for Arsenal even if that is true then how do you adjust for that? How you break down teams which come to the Emirates Stadium to defend? If the answer is nothing that could go a long way to explaining why you can struggle at home against teams which you should be beating.  

Best Regards

[Arsenal457]

29 minutes ago, pheelf said:

The tactic

Remember what I wrote about having all your ducks in a row. To me, it appears that you have a number of things which are conflicting with each other. You want to play a short, patient passing game but have selected players in roles that have duties which are going to be very aggressive with their forward movements (just check the individual mentality of the AF for instance). The 4-2-3-1 is going to see two of your front 4 out wide when they haven't got the ball which isn't going to help them to get involved in the game.  

Incidentally, why don't you want your players to dribble and take defenders on when you have selected 5 roles in the team who want to do just that? If you aren't allowing players like Iwobi and Bellerin to run at defenders or cross the ball (Work the Ball Into Box) then why are you playing them in roles whose whole purpose is to do that? It seems to me that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place and you need to really solidify in your mind how you want to play and gear everything (formation. roles and duties) towards that. As it stands the tactic is a bit of a mishmash and you aren't playing to the strengths of the roles you are selecting. For e.g. an Advanced Forward wants to be fed the ball early after possession is won when there is more chance he has space to operate in given that defenders will not have recovered their defensive shape and is a role which is suited to a more counter-attacking approach. In your system, you are playing slower, shorter passing which is an environment which he is unlikely to thrive in.

The results

To be honest you are pretty much doing what Arsenal are doing in real life (the exception being the points thresholds are far lower). In fact, the similarities are quite striking, to be honest. The only results which look out of place to me are the Leicester, Newcastle and Bournemouth defeats at home and perhaps the penalty defeat to Cardiff but outside of that there isn't anything overly strange there. At the beginning of the season, what was the predicted finish for Arsenal? Last season they finished 6th so you're roughly in the same area as then and considering that you haven't strengthened the squad significantly it's pretty much how it should be playing out. In terms of most games being favourable for Arsenal even if that is true then how do you adjust for that? How you break down teams which come to the Emirates Stadium to defend? If the answer is nothing that could go a long way to explaining why you can struggle at home against teams which you should be beating.  

Best Regards

That is interesting @pheelf. I’ll definitely consider it. I have only just returned to my AF (a) as both PF (a) and DLF (a & s) weren’t doing nothing. I haven’t had huge results, but the first game back Aubumeyang score 2, and then 1 the next match. May I ask which 2 of the front 4? I could be wrong but when I put counter attack on I see it as my players counter quick, and if a good opportunity doesn’t rise, they recycle possession. If I’m wrong, how would you suggest I can pull off both in one tactic? Bang on, I was predicted 6th. I’ll be honest, I mainly just put the mentality to attacking instead of positive if I’m dominating the game pretty quick in the match. For the dribbling, what should I remove to allow them to dribble more? I had also put it on a fairly narrow formation, to try get players more involved in the center and towards goals.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

 

5 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

I’ve tried the PF and the DLP both on attack

From the above screenshot, I see Auby is still an AF in your system. But that's far from being the only (or even the most problematic) issue in your tactic. Your defense is clearly exposed due to a combo of much higher DL, more urgent pressing and counter-press employed at the same time (and coupled with a high-risk mentality). In attack, you are creating an overkill by using both short passing and low tempo at the same time. Narrow width can further limit your attacking options. It's not a wrong instruction per se, but you need to consider the whole context in order to see if a particular instruction makes sense or not. Arsenal is a top team, so opposition will in most cases look to defend narrow and tightly against you. Why then would you look to narrow your own play and thus help them defend? Plus, the Work ball into box TI will already encourage your players to get somewhat narrower in the final third anyway.