Need full tactical help (OM, 4-2-3-1?)

[Romano338]

Hi

After playing some FM16 and 18 I realize I am totally incompetent with tactics. I started 3 saves with Marseille, been sacked twice and the thrid, I would have if I hadn't stopped before. I think most of my issues are tactical. (FYI I'm on FM Touch, if this is a useful info)

Here is my idea, as Marseille's squad is basically made for that type of tactic:

 

(click on the positions to see a screen of the player)

Team instructions (unchanged so far)

All the player instructions are the defaut ones.

In my 3 saves, I've tried different tactics. 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, a bit of 4-4-2 and 5-2-3. I've tried being offensive, defensive, counter-attacking. I've tried being high, low, centered, wider. I've tried different roles, especially for fullbacks, striker, midfield.
I've noticed a few things that seem pretty recurrent:
 - at half-time, I always get the messages about how we lose the ball in the central part of the midfield, and about how we can't keep the ball in the opponent's half
 - my strikers can not score. At all. They are terrible.
 - Thauvin is bad. He can have his moments but he really struggles, when he should be a beast (even though his stats are underrrated)
 - Amavi is bad. Sakai is ok, and he has similar strengths/weaknesses so that's a bit weird

I'm not sure about anything, in the tactic I've posted. Roles, positions,... I could play with my 2 CMs lower, maybe the CAM at CM then. My striker could be more attacking. On the wings, the idea is that Payet is less of a guy who runs forward, so I put support. Thauvin is the guy who takes the ball and goes forward, so I put attacking.
About the half-time message, I suppose having "Retain possession", and play shorter passes and maybe even a lower tempo would be a solution. Never worked when I tried though. Not entirely sure how to use a target like Mitroglou, especially if playing like that. I also tried using Germain as a striker, as a complete striker (I tried false nine, advandec and even CAM as shadow, never worked either).
I'm no really sure how to play in the defense either. Having the possession means playing the ball from behind, where defenders aren't technical. It also means being higher on the pitch, when they aren't the fastest.

So as you can see I need overall help. What would advices would you have? What stuff works well and stuff don't really work well? What combinations of roles/instructions are correct or incorrect?

Thank you

PS: I haven't started the new save yet.

[Argonaut]

I would hesitate to play a TM-S as a lone striker, unless he has some serious goalscoring support from other positions. A TM-A alone up top can work if he is a monster. Haven't tried this since FM14 though so I don't know how well the Target Man is working these days.

Also would hesitate to play Inside Forwards with a Target Man. He wants more crosses and Wingers will give him that. Maybe one IF and a W at the least. I quite like the IF-A / WB-S with a W-S / FB-A combo on the other side.

Try out some TIs here and there to develop a brand of football. See what works.

[Romano338]

il y a 27 minutes, Argonaut a dit :

I would hesitate to play a TM-S as a lone striker, unless he has some serious goalscoring support from other positions. A TM-A alone up top can work if he is a monster. Haven't tried this since FM14 though so I don't know how well the Target Man is working these days.

Also would hesitate to play Inside Forwards with a Target Man. He wants more crosses and Wingers will give him that. Maybe one IF and a W at the least. I quite like the IF-A / WB-S with a W-S / FB-A combo on the other side.

Try out some TIs here and there to develop a brand of football. See what works.

That's a concern I had, the target man not having crosses. Marseille doesn't really have wingers. I think it would be more suited to change the striker's role then.
Mitroglou has good stats in a quite specific style: strong, finisher, great headers, but slow, not very mobile, no team work. He is made to be a target man, the guy you look for on crosses, even though he can also play poacher, complete, advanced or trequarista, but not nearly as good as TM.
I also have Germain who has a very different set of stats. His strengths are less strong than Mitroglou's but he is way more well-rounded. Naturally a complete forward, but really good at deep-lying forward, and can play all the other striker roles (his worst role is as good as Mitroglou's second role, so he really is far more well-rounded). His downside (well, is it? depends how you play him) is that he looks for passes instead of shots.

This makes me think of something: I often see people use "Work ball into box" With 2 IFs, is it still something to do?
And is it really possible to have goal-scoring strikers with IFs, especially decently offensive IFs?

PS: Marseille really struggles with their strikers too IRL, so that's kind of funny.

[burnum]

To make the IF positions work, you need space for the to cut in. In your setup the TM and AM occupy that space, leaving both IF with nowhere to go. If you want to keep the IF positions, change the TM to F9 or DLF and change the AM to support duty. If you want to keep the TM you should change both IF to something that keep width and bring in crosses for the TM (Wingers would be logical).

If you have trouble connecting midfield to attack you might re-think the role of your CM. Maybe a DLP on support duty or a BBM could work as a link between the lines...

[Romano338]

I think the IFs need to stay like that, since they are keep players and are made for that role.

I can change the CAM to something else, and the striker. Advanced playmaker is a bit lower than AM, isn't it? It would suit Lopez perfectly too. Maybe an advance playmaker support? Striker, I like the deep-lying forward idea since Germain can play that definitely.

Overall, I'm not really closed on changing positions or roles. The ones I think are needed are the IFs, since Payet and Thauvin are some of the best players in the squad, and they are made to be IFs (well, Payet could be CAM but there's a lack of wide players). I think Gustavo would be a good BWM, but if it has to change, I'm ok. I'm not closed on putting my CMs lower, and my CAM too. I guess I try to understand what combinations are dumb, and what combinations could work. Like for example, TM with IFs, that's kinda dumb.

Burnum > about the CM, you talk mostly about Sanson? Honestly I just kept the original role for him since I don't know what type of midfielder would work well there. I guess like you said I'd need a guy who links, like a box-to-box

[Romano338]

Do you guys change the individual instructions a lot? Or is it ok to let the default ones, especially if you find the rights roles and duties?

[Romano338]

Alright so I read a few stuff about tactics, and I think I might start with that:

I think/hope everything is sort of coherent.

[Argonaut]

Looks better. Keep an eye on the Advanced Playmaker to see if he's having trouble in games. Especially if the other team has a dedicated DM I might change your guy to a AM-S.

I also like the simple CM-D / CM-S combo in midfield in a 4-2-3-1. Consider this if your midfielders are getting caught out of position too much.

I use individual player instructions more than I used to. I wouldn't go overboard at first, I think it represents some final tweaking rather than the answer you need right away. The only exception is goalkeeper distribution which has a huge effect on how you play.

I would also try with Retain Possession unclicked at first.

[Romano338]

Ok thanks!

For the CAM, I wasn't sure between Attacking Mid and Advanced Playmaker. What made me lean towards AP is that Lopez is a bad finisher and long-shooter. AP seems more focused on passing the ball.

The two CMs, even with a more defensive one, it's not a bit too offensive? Although looking at the description, I guess the main plus over the BWM is that it links defense and offense, which is important with 2 midfielders. I like the idea though! Might try that straight away! Gustavo has enough technical ability to not give it straight to "someone more technical"

I'll uncheck "retain possession" and see how we perform (when I finally start my save lol).

Individual instructions, it's pretty much what I thought: keep it as a final touch. For the distribution of the keeper, he could kick it if SI had been slightly accurate on his kicking  I mean, come one, Mandanda with 11 kicking?! 

[burnum]

Offensively your tactic looks solid but defensively it looks like you're inviting the opponents to hit you on the counter.

With both WB in attack mode and nobody in the DMC position you leave your 2 DC all alone. The BBM might drop back at times but when he's on a forward run he won't make it back in time. The BWM is an aggressive player who will close down a lot, so he'll be drawn out of position a lot.

Not saying your tactic won't work, but if I were you, I'd take a good look at my defensive setup. I understand that you need the BBM as a link between defense and attack, so I won't tinker with him. I'd immediately switch Sakai to support duty. In addition I'd look for a different role for Gustavo. Maybe a DLP on defending duty could do (think of Xavi Alonso in his time at Bayern - just sitting in front of the defense, spreading the ball around and offering an outlet but still providing just enough cover to keep runners from the center backs)...

[Romano338]

il y a 39 minutes, burnum a dit :

Offensively your tactic looks solid but defensively it looks like you're inviting the opponents to hit you on the counter.

With both WB in attack mode and nobody in the DMC position you leave your 2 DC all alone. The BBM might drop back at times but when he's on a forward run he won't make it back in time. The BWM is an aggressive player who will close down a lot, so he'll be drawn out of position a lot.

Not saying your tactic won't work, but if I were you, I'd take a good look at my defensive setup. I understand that you need the BBM as a link between defense and attack, so I won't tinker with him. I'd immediately switch Sakai to support duty. In addition I'd look for a different role for Gustavo. Maybe a DLP on defending duty could do (think of Xavi Alonso in his time at Bayern - just sitting in front of the defense, spreading the ball around and offering an outlet but still providing just enough cover to keep runners from the center backs)...

Yeah when I see the formation the defense is a big concern too. That's why in my previous attempts I used either a lone CDM with 2 midfielders in front of him, or either 2 CDMs with a mid in front of them (like the current tactic but the 3 mids lower).

For that one I started higher because I thought the striker could use the support, since he couldn't score in my other saves.

[Romano338]

Well, first friendly was definitely bad. 4-4 against a second division team, they looked better than us. Players seem dumb: sometimes they just follow the ball, no matter where it leads them. I feel like AI makes way better decisions. I felt like I was letting them do anything they'd want, when I was not even in Fluid. Got 51% possession, 13 shots with 8 on target. We scored 2 after my subs came in and I had to play with wingers and crosses (although it's not really the crosses that made us score). When I look at the overall positionning of the team, it seems ok. We're not too high, there isn't too much space between lines. Sanson is a bit offensive maybe, but it looks ok. Yet on the pitch I felt like we were high in defense, like there were holes. We took 2 corners. The analyze says we lost the ball in the centre of the midfield.
I do feel like a BWMd as CDM with a CMs or B2Bs and a APs as central mids might be a better solution. Leaves the striker a bit more alone though (and he already couldn't get anything in the first friendly). As a less dramatic change, I'm thinking about standard instead of control.
Right now I guess I'll leave it that way though.

PS: wanted to see the complete analyze, game froze during the loading; Guess I'll have to do without it

[Old Scouser Tommy]

On 12/1/2017 at 10:17, Romano338 said:

Alright so I read a few stuff about tactics, and I think I might start with that:

I think/hope everything is sort of coherent.

I personally wouldn't have a BWM just because he tends to vacate his position to try and win the ball. Maybe a CM with a defend duty woud be better as he will stay and defend. I'm playing with a 4-2-3-1 formation but have 2 DM's one as a Segundo Volante  with an attack duty and one as a DLP with a defend duty and 1 CM with a support duty. My striker is a DLF support. I'm scoring plenty of goals and keeping it tight at the back. @Cleon has a fantastic thread on the 4-2-3-1 system and it's well worth a read. It will give you a lot of pointers in the right direction.

[BMNJohn]

On 01/12/2017 at 07:06, Romano338 said:

Hi

After playing some FM16 and 18 I realize I am totally incompetent with tactics. I started 3 saves with Marseille, been sacked twice and the thrid, I would have if I hadn't stopped before. I think most of my issues are tactical. (FYI I'm on FM Touch, if this is a useful info)

Here is my idea, as Marseille's squad is basically made for that type of tactic:

 

(click on the positions to see a screen of the player)

Team instructions (unchanged so far)

All the player instructions are the defaut ones.

In my 3 saves, I've tried different tactics. 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, a bit of 4-4-2 and 5-2-3. I've tried being offensive, defensive, counter-attacking. I've tried being high, low, centered, wider. I've tried different roles, especially for fullbacks, striker, midfield.
I've noticed a few things that seem pretty recurrent:
 - at half-time, I always get the messages about how we lose the ball in the central part of the midfield, and about how we can't keep the ball in the opponent's half
 - my strikers can not score. At all. They are terrible.
 - Thauvin is bad. He can have his moments but he really struggles, when he should be a beast (even though his stats are underrrated)
 - Amavi is bad. Sakai is ok, and he has similar strengths/weaknesses so that's a bit weird

I'm not sure about anything, in the tactic I've posted. Roles, positions,... I could play with my 2 CMs lower, maybe the CAM at CM then. My striker could be more attacking. On the wings, the idea is that Payet is less of a guy who runs forward, so I put support. Thauvin is the guy who takes the ball and goes forward, so I put attacking.
About the half-time message, I suppose having "Retain possession", and play shorter passes and maybe even a lower tempo would be a solution. Never worked when I tried though. Not entirely sure how to use a target like Mitroglou, especially if playing like that. I also tried using Germain as a striker, as a complete striker (I tried false nine, advandec and even CAM as shadow, never worked either).
I'm no really sure how to play in the defense either. Having the possession means playing the ball from behind, where defenders aren't technical. It also means being higher on the pitch, when they aren't the fastest.

So as you can see I need overall help. What would advices would you have? What stuff works well and stuff don't really work well? What combinations of roles/instructions are correct or incorrect?

Thank you

PS: I haven't started the new save yet.

If I had wanted to reproduce Marseille's tactics (which I honestly wouldn't want ), I probably would've gone for something different. 4-4-1-1 instead of 4-2-3-1. Marseille doesn't rely on a tall striker so hoofing it is prohibited. Their wide players have near total positional freedom but still are expected to commit to defensive tasks. They press but prefer to defend low, hence why I prefer the 4-4-1-1 in general. I also have a huge bias against the AML/R stratas too to be fair. although this evening they have chosen to ask their wide players to press high on Montpellier's CBs since la Paillarde plays with three CBs which would validate the 4-2-3-1... if you could get the AML/R to actually defend. I also think Payet's movement is more akin to the WP(A) role rather than the AP(A) on the wing role, although his positional freedom is far greater. Rudi Garcia shafted the 4-1-4-1 in favour of a 2 man midfield who are expected to protect the defence. That said, opponents often find space between the lines and players and I don't think that the team's combination of low overall defensive positioning and closing down works all that well. Marseille makes extensive use of the wings too, where their stronger players lie.

Mandanda as a GK(D) and Distribute to CBs or any similar option that will prevent him from hoofing the ball. Sakai as a FB(A), Rami BPD(D), Rolando CD(D), Amavi WB(S) or FB(S). Thauvin IW(S) and Roam From Position, Gustavo CM(D), Zambo Anguissa BWM(S), Payet as WP(A) and Roam From Position. No clue for Sanson, but he doesn't have a playmaking role and I dislike AM(S) nearly as much as I dislike AML/R stratas. Sanson tends to fill in for Payet's and Thauvin's constant movement rather than dropping deep to get the ball. Germain as CF(A). Germain is more of a supportive player, but I feel the Attack duty is simply more dangerous to the defenders with its movement off the ball. For the subs, Ocampos is fairly obviously a IW(A) which sends Payet in the axis as a AP(A). Maxime Lopez is more proactive than Zambo Anguissa, so CM(S) could do, needs more experimenting: he's a bit light physically and more suited to a three man midfield. Mitroglou can't do much more than AF(A), although I believe his lack of movement and team work is problematic: even if he's not much more successful this season than Germain, the Frenchman is far more active on the pitch. The Greek just tends to completely disappear if you don't play for him.

As for the overall team instructions and style, I'd go with either a Standard or a Fluid shape: the whole team defends but there's still some degree of separation between tasks. I'd consider Play Wider to search for space more often. Marseille doesn't play slow but doesn't waste the ball senselessly either: Play Out Of Defence, Shorter Passing if necessary. I'd only consider Retain Possession if the goal is to keep the result at the end of a match. I'd also use Close Down More.

You might be wondering why i'd put Thauvin on a supportive role. Well that's the big difference between the "young" Thauvin and today's Thauvin: he's much, much more altruistic and won't necessarily drive himself into corners on the ball. In comparison Ocampos is much more of a true and true attacking player.

 

All of that is just my rambling; I wouldn't necessarily play like that personally even with this formation so take it for what it's worth. Actually there are a few things I'd change, but I already said so early in this post.