Open letter to SI: The Realism or Without Arrows

[shevelevee]

If you talk about "forward Runs", can I ask you (again), how will realise in FM2009 backward runs and runs into center from flang?

[wwfan]

Sorry. I can't understand.

Run = to move on foot at a rapid pace so that both feet are off the ground together for part of each stride? If yes, how can player without runs go from position in defence to position in attack?

Which is entirely the point. How can arrows work in conjunction with runs? Are they not the same thing? If so, then the arrows and runs instructions needs to be one and the same, which they now are. It is illogical to have both.

As for backwards runs, an MC with no FWRs and a lowish mentality will drop into the defensive hole when the team loses possession. He no longer needs to be told to become a DMC. He will do it naturally until the rest of the team is in position to cover the attack.

[shevelevee]

What about moves to center? Your example with right footed wingers on left flang looks very poor...

[Alekos]

After reading this I'm somewhat disappointed that SI leave the job of defending the change to users like wwfan.

There ARE formations which irl have different set-ups in offense and defense like a 4-3-3 switching to a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 switching to 4-3-2-1.

Having neither wibble/wobble nor arrows at my disposal, the new engine deprives me of tactical options! I fail to see in what way this could improve the game or are SI actually going down the FIFA way of removing good options for new versions just to re-include them later for later versions to raise sales? If SI stop creating the best possible at any time for higher rewards, they'll lose their distinction and one of their USPs.

Maybe it just comes down to whether you are happy to sacrifice tactical freedom for realistic results on the match engine or vice versa. However if so, the ME is the problem, not the tactical freedom.

Thank god I haven't pre-ordered yet.

And, if you listen to those who have played a fully operation version of the arrowless engine, has made it far, far better. Also, if you listen to people fundamentally involved in the decision to remove them, you'll recognise there is no loss of control.

However, if you wish to listen to people who weren't involved in the decision, have never played with the arrowless ME (or at least with full tactical options enabled), and are thus just guessing about what this means, then go ahead. No skin off my nose.

We wouldn't want to let a little knowledge get in the way of uninformed polemic, would we

Well, so you believe that the removal of arrows will make the game better?

Will you have better control of your tactics than you had before?

Please give an answer with your hand on your heart!

[digsy11]

What (I think) WWFAN is trying to say is the run from point A to point B using the arrows does not work in the way you believe it to.In theory if your AML has his arrow curved to AMC he will move to this position regardless of what is happening on the pitch.This is not so much a run as a default starting point,AML is not ''running'' into AMC for any tactical reason as you would commonly think.For example, if your LB was on the left wing with no team mate to pass to inside of him your LM would give him an option down the line has his starting point would be in-front of the LB.Using the arrows your LM would not be there even though that is exactly the position he is meant to be to support the play, he would only make the run ''inside'' when the opportunity was right to do so.Therfore he is not ''running'' to AMC he is starting there when he should be starting LM.I apologise if this does not make great sense but I'm trying to help lol

[wwfan]

What about moves to center? Your example with right footed wingers on left flang looks very poor...

As with real life, a wrong footed winger is likely to cut in much more often. A correct footed winger will more likely stay wider, but can be forced into drifting inside with the right instructions. Personally, I have found wingplay to have become much more effective without arrows, as long as the tactical instructions suit the player.

However, the removal of arrows means that a player is much more likely to react to what is happening on the pitch rather than a ball in a deep position that he should offer passing support for conflicting with positional instructions to get into the FR position. It simply adds dynamism and assigns greater importance to player decisions.

[shevelevee]

As with real life, manager can ask every player on every position to move in center or on flang, not only forward or backward.

As in FM, manager can't do this.

[digsy11]

And to add I'd like to say to WWFAN the new ME sounds superb,I never used the arrows much but reading what you have posted in here makes the engine sound sophisticated and proffesional an I for one can't wait to test it out.Good job to everyone who worked on it IMO.

[wwfan]

Well, so you believe that the removal of arrows will make the game better?

Will you have better control of your tactics than you had before?

Please give an answer with your hand on your heart!

The removal of arrows has hugely improved the game and you have gained in overall tactical control. All you have lost is the illusion of tactical control that arrows gave.

[shevelevee]

In theory if your AML has his arrow curved to AMC he will move to this position regardless of what is happening on the pitch.l

Let's make in Fm not stupid players, who will not moves from position to position only depends on arrows, but depends on common sence in aggregate with his manager instructions!!!!!

[shevelevee]

The removal of arrows has hugely improved the game and you have gained in overall tactical control. All you have lost is the illusion of tactical control that arrows gave.

Was arrows - was control on player moves. Bad control.

Aren't arrows - aren't any control on player moves. Any control.

Except forward runs (DL will run on WBL? ML? AML? FL? position?????), if you want.

[digsy11]

Let's make in Fm not stupid players, who will not moves from position to position only depends on arrows, but depends on common sence in aggregate with his manager instructions!!!!!

Exactly, with the arrows as they are the players are not using ther common sense but will be in the new ME.

[wwfan]

As with real life, manager can ask every player on every position to move in center or on flang, not only forward or backward.

As in FM, manager can't do this.

I have repeatedly said that lateral movement was the only issue with the loss of arrows and was considered a minor loss with regards to the huge number of benefits the arrowless ME has brought. It was a development focus for the post-FML ME.

In general, if you want narrow players to drift wide when required, play a wide formation with no wingers. If you want wingers to drift inwards when required, use a narrower formation. However, player intelligence and the ball position on the pitch determines this much more than managerial instruction, as it would in real life. All you have lost is the ability to tell a player to shuffle left or right as soon as your team gets the ball, no matter if it is the right thing he should do.

[TriAn]

Which is entirely the point. How can arrows work in conjunction with runs? Are they not the same thing? If so, then the arrows and runs instructions needs to be one and the same, which they now are. It is illogical to have both.

Simple question. Can IRL manager tell player to move from zone of MRC to zone of AMR then team gets the ball and only then he arrives in zone of AMR try to find free zones with forward runs? Or, using another words, is such movement of player (then he firstly advances in strictly defined zone and only after that gets freedom to try forward runs) unrealistic and cann't be performed on field?

[someguy]

I just hope the new tactics still allow you to give an identity to your team. It sounds like it could turn into just having great players makes your tactics work. Of course great players make great teams but what about when the lesser sides are successful through great tactics from the manager?

Opinions on the new match engine, with regard to tactics, almost sound like you're saying 'yeah its great, i seemed to be winning more' I don't care if you win but have limited control over your team. Having your team reflect your orders, as much as they can, is crucial in the game. Otherwise it will just be about signings and nothing else.

[Alekos]

The removal of arrows has hugely improved the game and you have gained in overall tactical control. All you have lost is the illusion of tactical control that arrows gave.

Well nice to hear that and really looking forword to see it when I will get the game!

But the question remains not only from me but also from lots of people...

Since arrows were an illusion why the developers didn't try to make them work properly and decided to remove them completely?

Did they try to make the arrows usefull or from the beginning they said: arrows don't work so we remove them?

And to tell you the truth I realised that arrows didn't work as I wanted in previous games(and sometimes I thought they were ok,maybe because of the illusion as you say) and I was excpecting an improvement on them on the new FM..And suddenly they are out

So I think this is the reason why many people feel/felt nervous(including me)!

[shevelevee]

I have repeatedly said that lateral movement was the only issue with the loss of arrows and was considered a minor loss with regards to the huge number of benefits the arrowless ME has brought. It was a development focus for the post-FML ME.

In general, if you want narrow players to drift wide when required, play a wide formation with no wingers. If you want wingers to drift inwards when required, use a narrower formation. However, player intelligence and the ball position on the pitch determines this much more than managerial instruction, as it would in real life. All you have lost is the ability to tell a player to shuffle left or right as soon as your team gets the ball, no matter if it is the right thing he should do.

I have repeadetly said, that if I can't ask players to do wha i want - this is not Football Manager. That's TV Show, where somebody (not me) decide, what my players must do.

How can I ask my right MC in 4-2-2-2 to move on right flang in attack, with left MC will go to DMC position when all team go in attack? Also I want one of my ST go to right flang, other ST go to AMC position, one of AMC go to FC position, another AMC go to MC position, and all team focus their pass on AMC, who goes to MC, and he mane direct pass on right flang?

Can I do this in new ME? NO! I can't! that's All only for best look of ME? I don't need to only look at match, I want to make changes in my team play during the match! (btw I can do this in Championship Manager 2008. May be all, who want tactics, must go to CM2008, and use free positions, arrows of move, and arrows of focusing passes, and all who want to see nice match must stay with limited tatic control in Fm2009?)

[digsy11]

I just hope the new tactics still allow you to give an identity to your team. It sounds like it could turn into just having great players makes your tactics work. Of course great players make great teams but what about when the lesser sides are successful through great tactics from the manager?

Opinions on the new match engine, with regard to tactics, almost sound like you're saying 'yeah its great, i seemed to be winning more' I don't care if you win but have limited control over your team. Having your team reflect your orders, as much as they can, is crucial in the game. Otherwise it will just be about signings and nothing else.

From all the posts I have read on this subject we don't appear to be losing any tactical control, we just need to implement it in a different,more realistic, way

[wwfan]

Simple question. Can IRL manager tell player to move from zone of MRC to zone of AMR then team gets the ball and only then he arrives in zone of AMR try to find free zones with forward runs? Or, using another words, is such movement of player (then he firstly advances in strictly defined zone and only after that gets freedom to try forward runs) unrealistic and cann't be performed on field?

He will ask the MCR to get forward and wide in support of the attack. You can still that by asking him to make FWRs in a wide formation and look for crosses. I don't believe he will be told to shuffle to a specific secondary position prior to aiming to fulfil his supporting role. Football is more dynamic than that.

[shevelevee]

Do you know, what will happens in FM2009? I can tell you - as in FML. If you have the best players, you're champion.

[shevelevee]

From all the posts I have read on this subject we don't appear to be losing any tactical control, we just need to implement it in a different,more realistic, way

Why do you think that it is more realistic?

Simple example here:

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1800985&postcount=135

[someguy]

Lets not start saying the game has been comprimised by the 3d engine. However the new game plays, the 2d had to be evolved somehow so you can't start attacking that. But, the fact is if you want your team to play a certain way, even if its rubbish and unsuccessful, you should be able to. Again, there has to be limits to what you can instruct but the whole point of the game is watching your team on match day.

[digsy11]

Why do you think that it is more realistic?

Simple example here:

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1800985&postcount=135

Because in football no player has two starting positions, you support the play from whatever position you play.When I play RM for my sunday league team I don't automatically run to CENTER FORWARD position when our team get the ball it's totaly unrealistic, however if play was built up on the left wing i will run into the box looking to get on the end of a cross from the left.My starting position would always be from the right an depending on the build up play i would tailor my runs to suit, but to automatically move into a CF postion is unrealistic an this is what has been happening when using arrows to cut inside.

[wwfan]

Do you know, what will happens in FM2009? I can tell you - as in FML. If you have the best players, you're champion.

Again, just plain wrong. I deliberately had an understrength squad in FML so I could examine how important tactical sophistication was. With arguably one of the weakest squads in the division, I always finished top four.

Tactical sophistication has not been lost. It just works differently.

[wwfan]

Because in football no player has two starting positions, you support the play from whatever position you play.When I play RM for my sunday league team I don't automatically run to CENTER FORWARD position when our team get the ball it's totaly unrealistic, however if play was built up on the left wing i will run into the box looking to get on the end of a cross from the left.My starting position would always be from the right an depending on the build up play i would tailor my runs to suit.

Which is exactly what we have been focusing on with the removal or arrows.

[shevelevee]

You want to say that limitation of tactic control is another step on the road to realism?

You don't answer on mu question here: http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1805174&postcount=267

If you can explain me, how can I do this, I will agree with you.

[wwfan]

Well nice to hear that and really looking forword to see it when I will get the game!

But the question remains not only from me but also from lots of people...

Since arrows were an illusion why the developers didn't try to make them work properly and decided to remove them completely?

Did they try to make the arrows usefull or from the beginning they said: arrows don't work so we remove them?

And to tell you the truth I realised that arrows didn't work as I wanted in previous games(and sometimes I thought they were ok,maybe because of the illusion as you say) and I was excpecting an improvement on them on the new FM..And suddenly they are out

So I think this is the reason why many people feel/felt nervous(including me)!

Arrows did work properly, but users were employing them in a different manner than intended (specifically in the perception that they were runs). All they did was hurt the ME and, when employed all over the shop, could make matches, in FM and FML, totally farcical.

[digsy11]

Which is exactly what we have been focusing on with the removal or arrows.

Which should make the game way more enthralling than before and highly more entertaing.It sounds like developing your tactics will be a much more realistic, organic process and more rewarding when you find one that reeks havoc on the opposition

[wwfan]

You want to say that limitation of tactic control is another step on the road to realism?

You don't answer on mu question here: http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1805174&postcount=267

If you can explain me, how can I do this, I will agree with you.

You are repeating the same argument, that arrows aid tactical control. They don't. They reduce it as players are forced to shuffle between two points with no relation to what is happening on the pitch. It disrupts an overall tactical vision.

What will happen in the arrowless ME is that players will react to on pitch situations and choose to make runs into space when they are on. If you are looking to open space in the final third and have no wingers, a wide formation will encourage the MC to drift to the wings when the ball is on his side of the pitch. Adding other instructions, such as look for the crossing opportunity, will increase his chances of doing this. What he will not do is move tho the left flank when the ball is on the right as a matter of course, which is what he would do if arrowed. He will instead tuck in and support the attacking move from a more central position. If you decided you want the MCs to stay central in attacking plays, you would reduce their crossing and CF, and use the FB to patrol the flanks.

The number of options are almost limitless. The only thing that has changed is how you would translate real world instructions into the sliders. People commonly used arrows as it was a seemingly easy way to do things. However, they were being used to convey a totally different instruction than they were designed to. Thus, they actually harmed tactical understanding and design. Once you work out how to combine sliders to force players wide or inside, you will see you have lost nothing and gained in dynamism. It is a more ambiguous method of translating quite simple instructions, but in the long-run it will improve tactical design and the ME.

[Ackter]

To get your midfielders drifting wide in a wingerless formation.

1. Give your team width.

2. Give your midfielders free roles.

3. Tell your fullbacks to be a little cautious going forward.

4. A left footed midfielder is more likely to go out left and a right footed midfielder is more likely to go out right, so choose your midfielders carefully.

5. Choose players with suitable PPMs (or in FM09, train them to gain the PPMs needed to make them do this more often)

Then it's all about the mentalities and general instructions.

But they will not go there if there isn't space.

[wwfan]

Which should make the game way more enthralling than before and highly more entertaing.It sounds like developing your tactics will be a much more realistic, organic process and more rewarding when you find one that reeks havoc on the opposition

That's how I see it. Another thing that should stop is the ridiculous 25 shots to 1, 0-1 scorelines, that crazy arrow tactics engendered. They overly relied on arrows to create chances (which were often snatched and/or poor) rather than employing a holistic approach which rewarded consistently good build up play with excellent goalscoring opportunities.

[Ackter]

It won't stop all of them - a certain average of matches like that is horribly realistic.

[wwfan]

It won't stop all of them - a certain average of matches like that is horribly realistic.

Pedantic and a cynic

OK, 'reduce'.

Happy?

[digsy11]

That's how I see it. Another thing that should stop is the ridiculous 25 shots to 1, 0-1 scorelines, that crazy arrow tactics engendered. They overly relied on arrows to create chances (which were often snatched and/or poor) rather than employing a holistic approach which rewarded consistently good build up play with excellent goalscoring opportunities.

Which should in-turn stop alot of the moaning about bugs an super keepers.I think this coupled with the 3D addition will make this game truely supersonic the only trouble is people fear change, which is understandable, but this change really does sound like it's a major step forward.

[Ackter]

I don't do happy - I do differing levels of scowling.

[Ediocy]

This Arrow desperation seems like such a beast really. Hopefully the original poster and several others who share the same misconception are in the minority of the overall FM community, but really the whole concept is not that hard to grasp.

Arrows do not represent directional running instruction to your players.

Never did in any FM game, past and present.

Directional running instruction is already available ingame via the individual player instruction settings, albeit handled in a more realistic simulation which ensures that your players do not always carry out your instructions blindly 100% of the time. This is because in real life, they do not as well. They react to where on the pitch is the play at, fatigue level and what else have you.

So for those of you who are terrified of losing your tactical options without arrows, you do not have to be. Really please.

And for the naysayers that are just anxious because they do not like changes, please just give it some time. It is so already close to the release of the demo, so you can decide for yourself then whether the Arrows removal have affected match play negatively or not.

If over the course of the next year, majority of the FM fanbase feel that there seems to be something missing that needs to be replaced, I am sure our feedback then will be appreciated by SI.

Thus, please just relax and do not worry unnecessarily as yet.

[shevelevee]

Ok. I see that you don't know how to do what I descrin\be in that post - http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1805174&postcount=267

A lot of this I can do in FM08. Your words about "left-footed" and "creative freedom" and PPM* can't help to do what I want.

* what about PPM - and what if I want to use player movings to center or to flang in second half of my first ever match with team in second day I come to club, and in next match I don't want player moves to flang?? I will ask him about PPM in first day, and he will use it in second, and I ask him in third day not to use PPM, and in 4'th day he will not use them?))))

And I can't do this in FM09. Simply, why do you told me about something like realistic match engine, if i ask you about tactic control?

[shevelevee]

I don't understand - if I will write article about unrealistic corners instruction in 8.02, and about goals from the near post (about 15-20 for every season), will be this tactic instruction deleted from FM09 or FM10? Or it will be tuned? There aren't nothing realistic in these corners, why we can't delete this option? As you say, we must delete all, that exploit match engine and make our ME nice and perfect.

[Ediocy]

I don't understand - if I will write article about unrealistic corners instruction in 8.02, and about goals from the near post (about 15-20 for every season), will be this tactic instruction deleted from FM09 or FM10? Or it will be tuned? There aren't nothing realistic in these corners, why we can't delete this option? As you say, we must delete all, that exploit match engine and make our ME nice and perfect.

Mate, please realise this. Arrows as a feature, no longer exist in FM 09 due to the fact that the developers recognise their misrepresentation of movement. They have assured us that removing them will not break the game.

If you want Arrows in because you are concerned that you will lose a certain degree of control over players you had in the past, just take SI's word for now that you will not. Get the demo when it is released and then decide once you have actually played it.

If you simply want Arrows back in, in an attempt to simplify player instructions, then I think more than a few of us would view that as a step in the wrong direction towards the development of our beloved game.

[shevelevee]

I said again and again and again and again. I don't want arrows as arrows in 8.02. I don't want arrows as they will be in 9.00 (no arrows). I want arrows, and using of arrows in ME must be limited by common sence, and factors, which I wrote in first post and in other posts.

I don't understand your positin - I ask Si about tune for arrows, not delete them, and everybody want to say for me: "No, we don't need arrows, because they are unreal in 8.02. We need to delete them" And I can say for evereybody - everybody who want this is very very (don't know hhow it is English) ******, if you preffer to delete something \, but not tune this and use it.

[digsy11]

I said again and again and again and again. I don't want arrows as arrows in 8.02. I don't want arrows as they will be in 9.00 (no arrows). I want arrows, and using of arrows in ME must be limited by common sence, and factors, which I wrote in first post and in other posts.

I don't understand your positin - I ask Si about tune for arrows, not delete them, and everybody want to say for me: "No, we don't need arrows, because they are unreal in 8.02. We need to delete them" And I can say for evereybody - everybody who want this is very very (don't know hhow it is English) ******, if you preffer to delete something \, but not tune this and use it.

I understand English is not your native tongue so maybe some points get lost but do you agree that the arrows, as you understand them, have never infact been implemented in the way we would of believed them to be.Therefore the argument to keep them is defunct because they were never carrying out your instructions as you believed they were.

[wwfan]

It goes without saying that the corner exploit will be fixed. It is also a totally different issue than arrows. It was a bug.

Arrows distort everything. What you are asking for in relation to player common sense is 90% of how the forward runs will work in FM09. The only thing missing is lateral movement, which will be worked into the ME via other tactical options. Via experiments with other settings, you will be able to have a tactic working in almost exactly the same manner you did in FM08. All you have lost is the perceived exactness of an instruction which never worked the way you believed it did anyway, hence making it extremely ambiguous and frustrating.

[shevelevee]

And I agree, that corners instruction in 8.02 have never infact been impemented in the way we would believed them to be. In 8.00 for example, it was very hard to understand, why players don't cross on tha far post, and always cross on th near post, but this is not reason to delete corners instruction from tactic screen. Why did SI decide to delete arrows?

[digsy11]

The words,circles, in, round, and going spring to mind lol Trust the SI team mate.They wouldnot change anything to make the game worse or less enjoyable.

[shevelevee]

If badly tested ME = bug, than yes, corners were bug.

This is not bug, this is badly tested and tuned ME.

And if you think that corners are bug - using arrows without common sense limitation is bug too.

[shevelevee]

The words,circles, in, round, and going spring to mind lol Trust the SI team mate.They wouldnot change anything to make the game worse or less enjoyable.

Oh, yeah, I know. I contact Miles and Sega too frequent, and I know, that they only want to make FM better. But I don't have any aggression on them, I only want to show them their mistake. What's bad in criticism, if it help to see some mistakes and correct them?

[digsy11]

Oh, yeah, I know. I contact Miles and Sega too frequent, and I know, that they only want to make FM better. But I don't have any aggression on them, I only want to show them their mistake. What's bad in criticism, if it help to see some mistakes and correct them?

Absolutely nothing if the criticism is constructive SI encourage it.The fact this current ME has been tested so much more than previos versions an as a result the arrows have gone is a good thing.It shows (to me) that the ME is evolving in the right direction.You gotta understand this ME has been tested tens of thousands of times, it's not a decision SI have taken lightly

[shevelevee]

This ME was tested so many times, that I can only ask those, who test them - how can you agree with deleting arrows - not tune them! One year of beta-test - Si can tune arrows as brilliant as possible. But they simply deleterd them - it's my finally point.

[wwfan]

It's only a mistake from your point of view. From mine, as someone who was involved with the whole process of removing them, it is a fundamental improvement in the engine and in tactical sophistication. Arrows were deleted because:

1: They unbalanced the ME's match stats

2: They were being misperceived and misused by the user base

3: They were totally illogical

4: Removing them improved the football

5: Removing them added dynamism to the ME

This was not a quick decision and has already been heavily debated, specifically by those involved with the arrowless ME from the start and who have seen it evolve. The final decision was held until it was sure that everything was working better without arrows than with. I don't understand how you can be arguing it was a mistake to remove them or for their reinclusion without having played a fully operative version of the FML tactical module or FM09. It is nothing more than conjecture.

[wwfan]

As a basic question, given that arrows were only intended to define a defensive and attacking position for individual players, how would you make them better?