Seeking advice on tweaking a 3-5-2 (WB/AM).

[isignedupfornorealreason]

'Lo,

I finally started an FM save (huzzah), and I've gone back to a 3-5-2 (5-3-2 wb) I used in FM14.

However I have an oxymoron sort of issue(s);

1. I'm creating chances, sometimes, but not always putting them away. The result is a lot of 1-0 victories, which is fine, but I need advice on how to make it more potent, creativity wise.

2. I'm defensively solid, but when we're under the cosh, oh we get our knickers in a twist.

Here's what I line up with;

SK/D

CB/X CB/D CB/X

WB/A WB/S

CM/D DLP/S

AP/A

DLF/S AF/A

-Counter, Structured.

TI: Shorter passing, Play out of defence, Push higher up, Offside Trap, Higher Tempo.

Reasoning?

You'd be very surprised how well the offside trap works, in spite of being in a counter mentality, partially due to the wingbacks going so far forward that the opposition likes to try long balls over the top. I've only conceded *once* from a long ball over the top, and that was Theo Walcott, who obviously has the pace to ruin anyone's day really. - And surprisingly, the AI isn't getting many chances via these types of balls, they're getting it more from wide flank passes. So I can safely, somewhat rule this potential 'threat' out. (I do micro-manage the defensive line if I think the opposition has the threat to get in behind me though...)

Observations:

We have two primary outlets. The wingbacks tend to bomb forward, and on a good day they'll skin their marker and bomb in a cross. There's always bodies in the box, so we do get chances from them. Often though they run into a cul-de-sac and buy a corner. - Very disappointed with this aspect of wide play where they let the opposition catch up and dawdle. However, when they do get space, it is often a magnificent cross and a goal/shot.

The other outlet is the midfield trio/attacking trio, they'll sometimes combine for some sexy inter-play to put a striker through. I actually want to see more of this, and less of the wing play.

Why? Maybe my memory is wrong, but in FM14 I don't remember the ball being pinged from flank to flank all the time. It seems to be a very annoying part of Fm16, where the ball is always going from the right to left flank and back again, even in situations that shouldn't be seeing it happen - for example, a prime crossing opportunity with 6 men in the box went missing because the AI decided to switch the flanks move again for whatever reason. (It isn't PPM's, it's not a lack of options in most cases either...)

Defensively, we're quite solid, and we bloody should be what with 7 players defending at times... Hilariously though, we are AWFUL against a 4-4-2. I've had the most trouble against the formation we're supposed to destroy, 4-4-2 and quick switches of play often causes the players to coagulate into a mess and get split open. Bournemouth ran us crazy with that sort of wide-play. Newcastle did too, (but I'm going to ignore tactics and just claim they're overrated this year, seriously), and even Stoke gave me a helluva game with a 4-4-2.

What tweaks have I done? - I changed the WB/A to a WB/S on the left flank precisely because of the above performances. It offered more defensive strength, and actually improved the left flank (sort of) in terms of balance as the WB/S links up with the DLP/S and offers some additional passing outlets. Against Newcastle this change didn't help avoid a defeat, but against Stoke it decimated their wing-play game plan and allowed me to dominate to a 2-0 win. (yay, I did something right!)

Issues:

- As noted above, attacking play is rather limited. Too much criss-crossing hollywood balls, not enough "sexy" or as Herne puts it 'pizzaz'?

- As noted above, we get "twisted blood" anytime the opposition tries their own criss-cross hollywood balls, to such an extent you wouldn't think we had 5 at the back...

Help me to help myself!

I'm not at my wits end just yet. Results are decent, if nothing spectacular. (I'm Manchester United btw), I've played 22 games, won 15, drawn 3, lost 4 (one of these defeats being the U18's in the League Cup), all of those defeats have been narrow - by a one goal margin. So I'm not about to cry and say it's a crap tactic. It's a good template, it's working somewhat, it just needs some 'pizzaz'? Some fairy dust? Some pepperoni on the extra cheese pizza? Spice? Va-va-voom?

My brain though just can't seem to think of what I'm missing. I'm pretty sure the midfield and attacking roles are what I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure the wingbacks are what I'm after too. My initial thought is perhaps the need to drop a passing TI to open up the passing instructions? But then we're not seeing a lack of long balls.

Where our attacks stall is out on the wings, a lack of wing support for the wingbacks at times, but also because players dally and take the extra second to do something when in a dangerous position (frustrating), but I'm not sure if that's the match engine trying to tell me something, or if I'm just having far too high expectations - in fact I'm not sure if I'm having too high expectations results-wise anyway?

The only other thing I can think of is potentially electing to 'exploit the middle' and switching the WB/A on the right to a WB/S in order to pad out the midfield numbers more and still offer a wide-outlet. But I loath to think I'm sacrificing width for congesting the middle, we need width!

So um yeah, can anyone shine a torch on my observations?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Hrm... Guess no one's got any advice.

I made some more changes, adjusting both Wingbacks to support to try and cover the flanks. Away from home I've found myself toning one of them down to a Defend duty at times. The two midfielders have a hard time spreading across the entire pitch, probably an issue of having the playmaker starting so high. I might just have to abandon the AM slots to allow the midfield more ability to 'spread'.

I cut down some of the criss-crossing by changing the structure from structured to a more flexible setup, which brought the team together a bit more and allowed for more attacks via the middle with support from the wide positions rather than the opposite way. I also switched the Deeper playmaker to a roaming playmaker, on the understanding that I need a bit more mobility. My central points were rather much becoming too static, but I'm not sure if that's even helping or compounding the problems I'm seeing.

I also kicked off all the instructions down to three; Push higher, offside trap and Play out of defence. - The offside trap works brilliantly as I said. And I thought short passing was perhaps overkill. Counter already tells the boys up top to pass short, so it's only a matter of telling the defenders to cut down the long balls.

I see some improvements, but still not quite progressing how I want it to go.

Defensively, looking at the statistics we're a mammoth - I'm secure about my defensive ability on FM, because I know I can set up a defence... We've conceded a mere 8 in 23 games and only one team has ever scored more than one goal in a match against me (FC. Barcelona).

My weakness in FM has always been twofold, setting up a functioning midfield and setting up a potent attack. - Let me qualify that, I can get them some juicy chances, just they won't put them away. Tracking my previous results I've had games with four or five clean one on ones and they blow it. Not tricky ones either, flat out clean through, no-to-minimal pressure. I've scored 31 in those 23 games, which is average in my view, but we're putting around 41% of shots on target (11th in the league), converting a mere 8%.

So the issues still persisting me are;

1. Lack of goals/lack of chances - Possession is fine, we're 4th in the league for holding onto the ball. At home we can rack up up to 70% if teams decide to play an 10-0-0-1 formation.

2. Lack of control in away games - Stemming from the midfield not being able to hold its ground, or the wingbacks dropping too far deep in the defensive transition and the team tucking in, leaving the wide areas especially exposed.

I can't think of much more I can do to fix number 1.

Number 2 I'm seriously considering dropping the AMC back to MC to offer more balance while maintaining an advance playmaker role at the end of the day.

As always though, any suggestions/advice would be more than welcome. >_>

[summatsupeer]

Defensive

1. Whilst you have 5 "defenders" your leaving three players upfield but aren't really pressing so are they contributing defensively?

2. I would look closely at the offside trap. With 5 defenders in a line there's more potential for one of them not to step up, especially with a cover centreback.

Attacking

1. I expect you to have 5 players behind the ball most of the time with a CM-D and DLP-S put 3 CBs. You might lack bodies in attacking positions.

2. Following on from this, you lack runners in the middle as you have two static MC's. Your AP-A will be deeper looking to get the ball to feet so will be selective about his runs. DLF-S will be dropping deeper but who will make runs past him? Your AF-A will be threatening runs in behind but no one is really running from deep except your wingbacks out wide. That two central players looking to play through balls often but who to?

What would I do?

1. Drop the AMC to MC

2. Make sure the outside MC are fit, hard working, players who will help cover the flanks.

3. One of the following;

3.1 Change the DLP-S to BBM-S or CM-S (maybe RPM-S) keeping your AP-A and CM-D.

3.2 Change the DLP-S to AP-S and change your AP-A to CM-A. Moving the AP deeper, more focused on passing and getting another option in front of him.

Thats it for now, 2 tactic changes and 1 to make sure the flank is defended.

edit: I see you changed your DLP to RPM but I think you might want a role to offer more off the ball when you have a AP and DLF-S.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Defensive

1. Whilst you have 5 "defenders" your leaving three players upfield but aren't really pressing so are they contributing defensively?

2. I would look closely at the offside trap. With 5 defenders in a line there's more potential for one of them not to step up, especially with a cover centreback.

The AP sometimes gets back, yeah, but mostly the two forwards I'm happy to have free of defensive duties.

Regarding the offside trap, I've not got a cover CB. Just 2 stoppers with a standard CB, we get a lot of offside calls, and have only conceded from the offside trap failing once in all those games. Generally speaking the backline does very well at pushing up at the right time.

Attacking

1. I expect you to have 5 players behind the ball most of the time with a CM-D and DLP-S put 3 CBs. You might lack bodies in attacking positions.

2. Following on from this, you lack runners in the middle as you have two static MC's. Your AP-A will be deeper looking to get the ball to feet so will be selective about his runs. DLF-S will be dropping deeper but who will make runs past him? Your AF-A will be threatening runs in behind but no one is really running from deep except your wingbacks out wide. That two central players looking to play through balls often but who to?

1. Agreed somewhat, I have the AP, DLF and AF in very advanced positions. The WB's get up there but lack support in the final third if they get double-teamed - This is something I find has been solved by switching them to WB/S as it allows them to hang back to link up with the midfield a bit more. The DLP gets quite far up the pitch but there's a space issue between him and the front three, especially when teams park the bus...

2. I agree on this, this is something I'm ooh-ahhing over.

What would I do?

1. Drop the AMC to MC

2. Make sure the outside MC are fit, hard working, players who will help cover the flanks.

3. One of the following;

3.1 Change the DLP-S to BBM-S or CM-S (maybe RPM-S) keeping your AP-A and CM-D.

3.2 Change the DLP-S to AP-S and change your AP-A to CM-A. Moving the AP deeper, more focused on passing and getting another option in front of him.

Thats it for now, 2 tactic changes and 1 to make sure the flank is defended.

edit: I see you changed your DLP to RPM but I think you might want a role to offer more off the ball when you have a AP and DLF-S.

Hrm... Option 3.2 sounds interesting, and something for me to consider. Pushing more bodies up. I'll have to give it a go.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Update 3:

Hmm, so I made some changes again. Withdrew the AMC to MC, changed him to an MC/A and the DLP to an AP/S. Also dropped the offside instruction just to see if it'll shore up an already ridiculously strong backline.

Has it improved anything? Half and half.

My results so far with the new system:

West Ham (Home) 2-0. - Thoroughly dominated them.

Norwich (away) 0-0 - We hit the post twice... Had one off the line. Norwich got a penalty late on that we saved. This sums up my experience in FM16, constant missing of some glorious chances and basically screwing up away from home.

Bournemouth (Home) 3-0 The game was even in terms of possession and the feel of who was dominating the proceedings. However, we had the superior chances, not in terms of numbers but in quality. I jotted down this should have been a 10-0 win, we were that good in terms of chance creation, though it helped that Bournemouth were happy to play ball.

Zenit (Home) 2-0 An awful game, with very few chances. Part of this was down to Zenit playing a 4-2DM set up and parking the bus. In some ways I'm content we even won this, most of our chances were central and in the box, which is fantastic considering.

Everton (Home) 1-0 This game... Sums my experiences up with Fm16... We scored via a penalty, but let me just regale the events;

21 minutes in. Five shots. Four on target. FIVE clear cut chances. The game didn't mis-identify them either, I watched them all. Excluding the penalty, we had FOUR one on ones. One at an angle, so we can forgive that. But the other three? In the middle, unmarked, loads of time, not rushed, shot and saved, or one which was skied.

So we eke out a tight win, and I started getting very damn frustrated now because this is starting to become a very common theme which is making me move away from tactics and into the mindset of blaming the game. >_>

In the end, Everton batten down the hatches and we only got a further 3 shots on target out of a further 8 (2 blocked).

Southampton (Away) 2-1 I enjoyed this game, very even game which we stormed to a 2-0 lead via two great crosses. They hit back and the rest of the game petered out. That said, Southampton were great, 8 shots, 4 on target, 1 off the post, all in the six yard box in a very central area - Mostly from crosses, which is suggesting an area I need to rectify in the future. In an ideal world, these chances would be minimised to 1 or 2.

Stoke (Home) 1-0 Penalty win again, they parked the bus. Fortunately they missed a penalty in the 83rd minute. Stoke's chances were mostly outside the box, mine were mostly inside the box but granted, they parked the bus so it was tricky

Again, results wise it's great. But I'm still feeling uncomfortable with the way it's working, maybe I'm piling on the pressure too much in certain games. I'm almost at the end of the season now, so I'll carry on with the new set up until the end and try and analyse it from there ready for Season 2. =x

[Earnie is God!]

6 wins and a draw from 7 games, with just 1 goal conceded, and you aren't happy?

You've set this up to be solid defensively and that's exactly what you've got. What more could you want?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

6 wins and a draw from 7 games, with just 1 goal conceded, and you aren't happy?

You've set this up to be solid defensively and that's exactly what you've got. What more could you want?

Efficiency in attack and a more coherent style of play, are you not even reading what I've said? >_<

I don't enjoy the way it is working, sure it's getting results, but it isn't as solid as it should be. Norwich and Newcastle United absolutely dominating proceedings is something that shouldn't be happening, both in terms of possession and in terms of chance opportunities. Wins are scruffy far too often, and no manager worth his salt would be happy with flukey penalty wins at home happening.

I'm a perfectionist, so I'll continue to moan about this and adjust things until I get it spot on.

[Warrenwwr]

i too have had a problem with possession footie this year. crosses destroyed my team regardless of 55-60% possession. you fell into the same trap as i did wrt preferring only 2 wide players. sorry i can't help much for he style you want to play.

forget the possession style! or try an alternate style for more attacking when you need more goals:

im using a v high d line, high tempo, high closing down 5-2-3 formation (1 SW, 2 WB). this same formation struggled to win at possession footie, but excelled at the other extreme. we have 40% possession, but create many more quality chances, sliding last ditch tackles, and more entertainment! 4-4-2 formation opponents no longer a problem! and what's more, my b-side can handle the tactic well for those small cup matches (it really is a lower league style of play).

[herne79]

i too have had a problem with possession footie this year. crosses destroyed my team regardless of 55-60% possession. you fell into the same trap as i did wrt preferring only 2 wide players. sorry i can't help much for he style you want to play.

forget the possession style! or try an alternate style for more attacking when you need more goals:

im using a v high d line, high tempo, high closing down 5-2-3 formation (1 SW, 2 WB). this same formation struggled to win at possession footie, but excelled at the other extreme. we have 40% possession, but create many more quality chances, sliding last ditch tackles, and more entertainment! 4-4-2 formation opponents no longer a problem! and what's more, my b-side can handle the tactic well for those small cup matches (it really is a lower league style of play).

It's good you found an alternative to the possession style that you wanted which you're enjoying, good job .

However there's no need to advise others to forget trying to play possession football just because you had a problem achieving it. It's perfectly possible to do.

[Warrenwwr]

It's good you found an alternative to the possession style that you wanted which you're enjoying, good job .

However there's no need to advise others to forget trying to play possession football just because you had a problem achieving it. It's perfectly possible to do.

my apologies sir!