Possession style 4123 system

[thejay]

Can someone please tell me how to be successful playing this kind of football after the latest patch?

I have one of the most creative and technical teams in the league and can keep possession without any problems, but creating chances is next to impossible playing that way.

Fast counter attacking style seems to be very effective in comparison.

This is my tactical setup:

I tried changing the inside forwards to wingers but that makes them even less effective, I also played around with the striker positioning and the midfield roles. Did not make much of a difference.

My fullbacks regularly are the best players despite not actually visible contributing that much except for dribbling down the flanks and stopping and passing backwards.

[utpaajordet]

What are your TI? I think your Wingbacks are too offensive, try them as B(S)... Put your DM as a DM (S), and your to central midlfielders as BTB, and RPM.. and one of your wingers as a Playmaker on support duty...

Your keeper should probably not be a Sweeper keeper, as he then will try a lot of risky passes... He should also roll the ball out to your defenders..

[thejay]

My keeper roles it out to the defenders and does not waste much possession, a sweeper is also necessary due to the high line I am playing.

Like I said, keeping possession is not the problem , I regularly have over 60 %, chance creation is.

The wingbacks are offensive to provide width , because when on inside forward duy, the wide players stay incredible narrow.

If I play one as advanced playmaker, he will be even narrower.

I put my dm at half back to counter against the very effective counter attacks of the opposition and to help building form the back by dropping in between the center backs , which is working quite well.

My team looks fine most of the time working the ball forward from the back, in the final third though, its a mess.

[utpaajordet]

Sorry, i missread. I thought you were looking for more possession.

Have you tried playing your attacker as a F9? Would possibly create some space for your IF´s. You could then also try using one of them as IF (A).

[thejay]

Sorry, i missread. I thought you were looking for more possession.

Have you tried playing your attacker as a F9? Would possibly create some space for your IF´s. You could then also try using one of them as IF (A).

Yes, I tried that, the problem is that when using a false nine, it allows the opposition to compress the space even more by pushing up, as my ifs to not really run forward at the right time and in the right way to exploit the space created by using a false nine on the wings. Putting them on forward runs often does not really change it much.

Using ifs attack duty stops them from tracking the fullbacks almost completely which makes it suicide down the flanks as my fullbacks gets overloaded 2 against 1.

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Pretty same with my setup in Fenerbahce save. One thing I recommend you DLP-s and AP in same strata kinda problem for me before. They seek of ball together. I would think diffent approach for them.

[RTHerringbone]

I think you focus too much on making the AML/R conservative. Switch one to Attack and just downgrade the defender behind to Support. That way you'll stabilise deep defence on that side and create more attacking threat. You simply lack final third intent at the moment. I'd also suggest that the TIs are bogging you down too much. You need to decide if you want possession above all else. If you reread Cleon's possession thread, he details why he didn't go nuts with TIs.

[summatsupeer]

Have a read of Cleons The Art of Possession Football

Without actually seeing how it looks on the field i'd say you need to look into:

1. How slow + short your playing, if opponents are able to push up there d-line then would sacrificing some possession by playing slightly longer / quicker produce some good chances?

2. Your pushing high + pressing, if it works to win the ball back quickly then the defence is pinned in, not giving you much room behind them, I like to use Roam From Position to try and drag defenders out of position to create space / overloads.

3. How do you expect to create chances from this setup? You have overlapping FBs who will then do what with it? Cross / Cut it back to who, in what is probably a packed box? You have "work ball into the box" ticked so they will be less likely to just fire it in unless you have players in there.

4. I switch my IF-S to attack when opponents push up high, it doesn't suddenly make my FB have to defend 2v1, do they just have poor defensive attributes?

[thejay]

Pretty same with my setup in Fenerbahce save. One thing I recommend you DLP-s and AP in same strata kinda problem for me before. They seek of ball together. I would think diffent approach for them.

I will try to mix it up , thanks

[thejay]

I think you focus too much on making the AML/R conservative. Switch one to Attack and just downgrade the defender behind to Support. That way you'll stabilise deep defence on that side and create more attacking threat. You simply lack final third intent at the moment. I'd also suggest that the TIs are bogging you down too much. You need to decide if you want possession above all else. If you reread Cleon's possession thread, he details why he didn't go nuts with TIs.

When I switch one to attack the opposition will overload my fullback, defending two against one is not good, even when my fullback is on defense.

Also with one fullback on support or defense and the winger on attack there too much space between them , the fullback does not move forward enough to support the winger , this results in long balls or losses of possession because the fullback cant reliably pass to the winger.

Also my whole defending strategy is pressing high up the pitch, I want the fullback to push up and press the winger .

The main problem is I think that short passing moves in tight spaces are not working very well in this game .

I have been playing this formation or similar to the with a similar style since ages in various fm versions and even tough I set up my team to play passing football, most of the chances were created by dribblings or immediate through balls.

Now after the patch it seems that si has improved the defense but not the ability of even highly creative and technical players to create passing moves and unlock defences by passing and moving into space.

There are often instances where I see my winger cut inside Messi style while the center forward is available for a quick one two, only for the winger completely ignoring him and shooting himself or passing to the fullback.

Most of the time playing that way I control the game completely and have all my players in the opposition half, my central midfielders control the game and my wingers play like forwards, so far so good, but my central midfielders seem to regularly ignoring short passing options to my wingers or forwards and rather opt for shots from distance or spreading it to the fullbacks, there is no fast short passing in tight spaces , even though my players are all technically very good and creative.

[thejay]

Have a read of Cleons The Art of Possession Football

Without actually seeing how it looks on the field i'd say you need to look into:

1. How slow + short your playing, if opponents are able to push up there d-line then would sacrificing some possession by playing slightly longer / quicker produce some good chances?

2. Your pushing high + pressing, if it works to win the ball back quickly then the defence is pinned in, not giving you much room behind them, I like to use Roam From Position to try and drag defenders out of position to create space / overloads.

3. How do you expect to create chances from this setup? You have overlapping FBs who will then do what with it? Cross / Cut it back to who, in what is probably a packed box? You have "work ball into the box" ticked so they will be less likely to just fire it in unless you have players in there.

4. I switch my IF-S to attack when opponents push up high, it doesn't suddenly make my FB have to defend 2v1, do they just have poor defensive attributes?

I don't want the opposition to push me back to open up space in behind, i want to suffocate my opponent Guardiola style, I don't like frantic counter attack football.

The fullbacks should provide width and spread the play opening up space for the wingers and also cross on occasion, in theory.

Normally when you put your ifs on attack they almost play like central strikers, positioning themselves near the center backs in defense instead of tracking the fullback.

The roam from position structured shape combination is something I haven't tried yet, I will try that.

I have a fluid setup because I wanted my defenders contribute to attacking and my attackers to defense.

[thejay]

structured or highly structured shape does not work at all, players stop supporting each other offensively or defensively.

Roam from position makes my wingers go into the penalty box immediately and leaves the fullback isolated on the wing and general messes with the positioning of the central midfielders.

I have watch some full games now and the main problem with my setup is that my player just don't move the ball fast enough in the attacking phase. Whenever space is created in one area the player fail to move it on fast enough , allowing the defenders to move into position again.

Changing to a higher tempo is not the right thing to do, as it causes them to be hurried during buildup , which I don't want at all because it leads to losses of possession.

[summatsupeer]

I don't want the opposition to push me back to open up space in behind, i want to suffocate my opponent Guardiola style, I don't like frantic counter attack football.

I didn't suggest changing your tactic, you said the opponents push up and compress the space when you play with a F9 and your IF don't make runs behind.

The fullbacks should provide width and spread the play opening up space for the wingers and also cross on occasion, in theory.

CWB-A and WB-A will play like wingers pushed right up looking to create something by dribbling/passing/crossing. There duty is to "attack", not "support" the IF. This is why I think Roaming is useful as your IF-S should move into space, potentially deeper+wide pulling a defender out and opening a through ball to the WB.

"provide width", its a very broad term, a FB-S will do that. Mine are quite reserved (i'm playing Structured atm) but get forward later in moves, pulling the opponents FB out opening passes to my IF-S around the corner of the box.

Normally when you put your ifs on attack they almost play like central strikers, positioning themselves near the center backs in defense instead of tracking the fullback.

Try setting them to man mark the FB.

The roam from position structured shape combination is something I haven't tried yet, I will try that.

I have a fluid setup because I wanted my defenders contribute to attacking and my attackers to defense.

You can use roaming with whatever team shape you like. The higher mentality and creativity the fluid team shape gives your defenders will make them more likely to get forward sooner. Who is going to play them through or exploit the space created?

structured or highly structured shape does not work at all, players stop supporting each other offensively or defensively.

Roam from position makes my wingers go into the penalty box immediately and leaves the fullback isolated on the wing and general messes with the positioning of the central midfielders.

What do you mean "immediately"? Mine tend to stay around the edge of the box when we have the ball in the final third. Could it be they are anticipating your attacking CWB / WB playing a ball into the box?

Use the PI to specifically tell the player you want to roam rather than the TI.

I have watch some full games now and the main problem with my setup is that my player just don't move the ball fast enough in the attacking phase. Whenever space is created in one area the player fail to move it on fast enough , allowing the defenders to move into position again.

Changing to a higher tempo is not the right thing to do, as it causes them to be hurried during buildup , which I don't want at all because it leads to losses of possession.

Which player? Could it be there role / attributes / PPMs ?

[thejay]

Try setting them to man mark the FB.

I could do that, but it makes them stick to their man rigidly instead of defending intelligently, it also messes with the team shape . Its more of a hack than a solution.

You can use roaming with whatever team shape you like. The higher mentality and creativity the fluid team shape gives your defenders will make them more likely to get forward sooner. Who is going to play them through or exploit the space created?

If I am thinking in football terms , I don't really want my whole team to roam from their positions, maybe one player should be allowed to roam but not the whole team , wing players should largely stay in their position and make runs in behind or attack inside while the fullback pushes forward outside.

I want my players to support each other during attacking and especially during defending, I observed with a structured shape and pressing, players don't really cover for each other when pressing.

I think the problem is that team shape is linked to creative freedom, so if I want all my players contributing to all phases of the game, it also gives them more creative freedom and makes them miss passes or not pass fast enough or position themselves wrong.

A structured shape improves the decision making but does not really generate the fluid football I want to see.

I tried some counter intuitive things like fluid shape but disciplined ti or the other way around , structured shape and be more expressive . The results were mixed and instructions like these are counter intuitive and imprecise .

Be more disciplined , be more expressive? What the hell does this mean, horrible imprecise descriptions.

As I understand it , team shape is higher or lower creative freedom, what are these tis then for?

The descriptions about team shape do not really make sense.

[summatsupeer]

I could do that, but it makes them stick to their man rigidly instead of defending intelligently, it also messes with the team shape . Its more of a hack than a solution.

Then I would suggest a lower mentality to reduce the more attacking mindset that control gives your players. Your expecting players who probably have poor defending attributes to "intelligently" decide to track back when you've told them you expect to control the game. The higher the mentality the more likely they're going to see the space as an opportunity to attack when you regain the ball than to think "I need to get back and help out" like a lower team mentality would do.

Man marking isn't a hack, its a tool.

If I am thinking in football terms , I don't really want my whole team to roam from their positions, maybe one player should be allowed to roam but not the whole team , wing players should largely stay in their position and make runs in behind or attack inside while the fullback pushes forward outside.

Your instructions don't match your description. You have very attacking WB's who will be looking to make runs behind and "wing players" who are looking to collect the ball and dribble or risky pass more than make runs behind. Look at the player instructions each role gives and try to match them to what you've described.

I want my players to support each other during attacking and especially during defending, I observed with a structured shape and pressing, players don't really cover for each other when pressing.

Do your players have good Teamwork and Work Rate to want to cover for there teammate and will put the effort in?

I think the problem is that team shape is linked to creative freedom, so if I want all my players contributing to all phases of the game, it also gives them more creative freedom and makes them miss passes or not pass fast enough or position themselves wrong.

A structured shape improves the decision making but does not really generate the fluid football I want to see.

I tried some counter intuitive things like fluid shape but disciplined ti or the other way around , structured shape and be more expressive . The results were mixed and instructions like these are counter intuitive and imprecise .

Be more disciplined , be more expressive? What the hell does this mean, horrible imprecise descriptions.

As I understand it , team shape is higher or lower creative freedom, what are these tis then for?

The descriptions about team shape do not really make sense.

Read Lines and Diamonds 4. The Tactics Creator to get a better understanding what the labels mean. The only difference is the players duty affects there mentality whatever the team shape unlike in FM15 so don't look at those diagrams.

Creative freedom doesn't make players miss passes, not pass fast enough or position themselves wrong. That's more likely there attributes, physical (tired) + mental condition (nervous / complacent etc) and form. Creative freedom is basically how much they are allowed to break from your tactic instructions. Yes creative freedom may allow a player with poor passing to try a risky through ball when they've not been told to try risky passes but that's also probably due to there decision making and mentality.

You can do things like a Flexible team shape so a balance of creating space and support, but then "Be More Disciplined" so the players follow your instructions or "Be More Expressive" to allow them to do there own thing more, but to still keep more structure and depth than Very Fluid.

[ibrahim.akbyk]

When I switch one to attack the opposition will overload my fullback, defending two against one is not good, even when my fullback is on defense.

Also with one fullback on support or defense and the winger on attack there too much space between them , the fullback does not move forward enough to support the winger , this results in long balls or losses of possession because the fullback cant reliably pass to the winger.

Also my whole defending strategy is pressing high up the pitch, I want the fullback to push up and press the winger .

The main problem is I think that short passing moves in tight spaces are not working very well in this game .

I have been playing this formation or similar to the with a similar style since ages in various fm versions and even tough I set up my team to play passing football, most of the chances were created by dribblings or immediate through balls.

Now after the patch it seems that si has improved the defense but not the ability of even highly creative and technical players to create passing moves and unlock defences by passing and moving into space.

There are often instances where I see my winger cut inside Messi style while the center forward is available for a quick one two, only for the winger completely ignoring him and shooting himself or passing to the fullback.

Most of the time playing that way I control the game completely and have all my players in the opposition half, my central midfielders control the game and my wingers play like forwards, so far so good, but my central midfielders seem to regularly ignoring short passing options to my wingers or forwards and rather opt for shots from distance or spreading it to the fullbacks, there is no fast short passing in tight spaces , even though my players are all technically very good and creative.

Hey thejay. I really interesting your setup because I use very same setup at defence strta. I guess, what RTH mentioned above is good suggestion. CF(s) has roaming PI so he can be able for through ball. But IFs(s) has no roaming at all. Also they don't get forward frequently because of them duties. It seems only CF(s) is avaible for through ball as you want. I would consider about it. If you don't want to give him attak duty, you may wanna give him roaming TI. Idk but it seems worth a try.

[thejay]

Then I would suggest a lower mentality to reduce the more attacking mindset that control gives your players. Your expecting players who probably have poor defending attributes to "intelligently" decide to track back when you've told them you expect to control the game. The higher the mentality the more likely they're going to see the space as an opportunity to attack when you regain the ball than to think "I need to get back and help out" like a lower team mentality would do.

If on attack duty are not actually supposed to track back often, there are supposed to play almost like strikers , thats why their positioning is also closer to the center backs while in attack than on the wing.

Ifsa will never track back consistently, they are not supposed to do that to give the player an option to play a role like Cristiano Ronaldo, stay forward and make the fullback think twice before pushing forward.

Your instructions don't match your description. You have very attacking WB's who will be looking to make runs behind and "wing players" who are looking to collect the ball and dribble or risky pass more than make runs behind. Look at the player instructions each role gives and try to match them to what you've described.

Actually if you look at the description of if support , they are exactly described as such , cut inside and make run in behinds on occasion

the wing backs are attacking to push high up the wing to provide width, they are supposed to stretch the field and force the opposition to vacate space. What happens though most of the time is that the if cuts inside and positions himself way to early near the penalty box, leaving the fullback two against one instead of working with the if to create one against one situations for the if.

The fullbacks play basically like I want most of the time, the ifs do not .

Read Lines and Diamonds 4. The Tactics Creator to get a better understanding what the labels mean. The only difference is the players duty affects there mentality whatever the team shape unlike in FM15 so don't look at those diagrams.

Creative freedom doesn't make players miss passes, not pass fast enough or position themselves wrong. That's more likely there attributes, physical (tired) + mental condition (nervous / complacent etc) and form. Creative freedom is basically how much they are allowed to break from your tactic instructions. Yes creative freedom may allow a player with poor passing to try a risky through ball when they've not been told to try risky passes but that's also probably due to there decision making and mentality.

You can do things like a Flexible team shape so a balance of creating space and support, but then "Be More Disciplined" so the players follow your instructions or "Be More Expressive" to allow them to do there own thing more, but to still keep more structure and depth than Very Fluid.

The discribitons about team shape and creative freedom are directly form this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445500-The-Art-of-Possession-Football its also consisten with what I observed.

It does not make them miss passes, it allows the to do what they want more, which sometimes means pass or not pass or pass long or dribble or basically do what they want, but i want the to move the ball quickly during buildup.

[thejay]

Hey thejay. I really interesting your setup because I use very same setup at defence strta. I guess, what RTH mentioned above is good suggestion. CF(s) has roaming PI so he can be able for through ball. But IFs(s) has no roaming at all. Also they don't get forward frequently because of them duties. It seems only CF(s) is avaible for through ball as you want. I would consider about it. If you don't want to give him attak duty, you may wanna give him roaming TI. Idk but it seems worth a try.

Ideally I want the if to do what's in the description : With support duty the if will cut diagonally into space and play through balls.

If I put him on attack he will almost play like a central striker and not track back or stay wide enough during buildup.

Also I don't really want him to roam, rather he should work with the fullback who pushes up to create one on one situations on the wings and then dribble inside to pass or shoot.

Without the ball he should stay wide and run diagonally behind the defense on occasion , especially with a false nine .

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Without the ball he should stay wide and run diagonally behind the defense on occasion , especially with a false nine .

That's exactly same 2 roles I am using on the up-front 3 Also I do not use roaming to him. Because with f9, I like him move and it's kinda enough for me. I just said that roaming may need with CF(s). I think, IF(s) can be more statical with another roaming forward and central midfielder.(Correct me if I am wrong)

[summatsupeer]

This is getting confusing. Your stating problems, being given options, then say its not a problem at all?!?

You respond to one suggestion stating you expect from your IF-A but then the next paragraph talk about your IF-S. Do you have one of each now?

Can you post what your currently using and the problems your have with it?

[thejay]

This is getting confusing. Your stating problems, being given options, then say its not a problem at all?!?

You respond to one suggestion stating you expect from your IF-A but then the next paragraph talk about your IF-S. Do you have one of each now?

Can you post what your currently using and the problems your have with it?

I don't use if a because he plays almost like a striker without really tracking back and positioning himself near the center back, that what I was describing.

I think the main problem with my tactics is in the structured vs fluid team shape and roaming and not roaming.

This is a bit counter intuitive, because when thinking about it in football terms my I want my players to largely stay in position and I want attackers to defend and defenders to attack.

This in fm terms suggest a fluid shape and not roaming, but it does not seem to be working like that.