Sunderland: slow and steady

[jjtile]

Diving back in to a new save. Going to post slowly and with quite a lot of detail - and see if people can point out any flaws in my thinking or approach.

So, without further ado, I thought I'd start with my assessment of my day 1 Sunderland squad and a few thoughts before I get into creating a tactic.

Would be great if people could chip in and let me know whether they've got another take on how I'm assessing particular individuals attributes etc. I'd rather not get into discussions about people's first hand experience with Sunderland though - only stuff that could realistically be assessed on day 1 of a save.

Oscar Ustari (GK)

Good agility and reflexes. 9-12 on everything else

Kieran Westwood (GK)

14s or more on all goalkeeping a physical stats. Weaker on the menials (two eights)

Vito Mannone (GK)

Better (though not amazing) mental attributes than Kieran Westwood. Slightly worse goalkeeping and physical stats. Toss us between Kieran and Vito. Going to go with Vito for the moment as, in a toss up, I’m going with mental stats.

Wes Brown (DC)

Getting a bit old and and slow. Technically good, strong, brave defender. Decent mentals for this level. 15 & 18 Stopper attributes.

Ondrej Celustka (DR)

13s across the support fullback attributes (really low attributed for attacking fullback). Not bad but nothing to write home about, especially in the mental attributes. Game thinks he’s a wingback. Attributes don’t support that.

Santiago Vergini (DC)

Mainly around 14s in the DC attributes. Similar to Brown but Slightly quicker. Better mentals. Not stopper or cover.

Craig Gardner (MC)

Below average attributes across the board - especially going forward but in defensive role too. Let down by a lot of 11s or lower in technical and mental attributes. Not going to be good enough to stay

Jack Colback (DL)

Alright (13s) mental and physical attributes for a left back. Poor crossing and dribbling going forward and poor marking staying back.

John O’Shea (DC)

Similar to Brown. Getting on and a bit slow. Technically and physically good (apart from pace). Decent, though not amazing, mentals. Possible “Cover” to match Brown’s “Stopper” - but a little slow and lacks acceleration, so perhaps not.

Carlos Cueller (DC)

Yet another decent technical & mental (apart from pace) ageing DC. In this case, mentals are lower than Brown, O’Shea and Vergini. Southampton rumoured to be interested.

Valentin Roberge (DC)

13s across the board on defensive attributes. Slow.

Sebastian Larrson (MR)

Good wide midfielder. Good crossing, passing and technique and good mentals. 14s or thereabouts in most of the key attributes.

Marcos Alonso (DL)

13s for a wingback/attacking fullback. Strong but not too fast. Definitely better than Colback as a fullback.

Andrea Dossena (WB L)

Decent off the ball, crossing, work rate. Poor marking and positioning. 12-13s in the key attributes.

Liam Bridcutt (DM)

Fast, decent menial attributes, poor marking, but ok tackling and technique. 13/14s. Ok passing so might be good in support or as a regista.

Lee Cattermole (DM)

Good mentals. Good passing and defensive technical attributes. Decent physical. Someone definitely to build a midfield around.

Emanule Giaccherini (MR)

Great attacking and passing technical skills. Great mentals. Good physical attributes. One of the better players in the team. Shame he’s the same position as Larrson.

Charis Mavrias (AMR)

Young. Fast. Showing some promising mental and technical skills but not ready for first team Premier League yet.

Ki Sung-Yeung (MC)

Decent supporting midfielder. Good technically in support (not great technical defensive or finishing attributes). Possibly supporting midfielder or deep lying playmaker. Not box to box due to poor defence

Adam Johnson (AML)

Great technically and physically. Patchy in mental attributes - 15 flair and off-the-ball but 10 decisions. Good finisher.

Potential attacking/supporting winger or attacking/supporting Inside Forward.

Ignacio Scocco (SC)

Fast but not particularly tall or strong striker. Apart from heading, great attacking technical attributes across the board. Mentals good too. One of the better players n the team. Poacher? Or someone who sits a bit deeper. Defintely not going to be target man without the heading.

[jjtile]

(post split due to image limit)

Fabio Borini (SC)

Young, fast. Not strong or tall. All attributes ok in the 12-13 range. Worth playing but not amazing. Similar to, but always going to be second to, Scocco this season.

Connor Wickham (SC)

Tall, strong. Not pacey. 11-13 striker stats generally. Like Borini, ok to play but not going to set the world on fire.

Steven Fletcher (SC)

Good technicals, mentals and physicals across the board. Fletcher and Scocco definitely the two best strikers.

[jjtile]

Summary

Looking at the squad above, it seems pretty clear where my strengths and weaknesses are.

- In Wes Brown, John O'Shea and Santiago Vergini, I've got two good good DCs and cover for them.

- In Lee Cattermole, I've got a really great DM

- In Adam Johnson and Emanule Giaccherini, I've got a couple of great wingers/inside forwards. Larsson is good cover here too.

- In Steven Fletcher and Ignacio Scocco I've got a couple of great strikers - one fast, the other one stronger and better at heading.

It's also clear that I'm really lacking in central midfield and at the full back position - both in terms of quality and in terms of cover (I've only got two "natural" central midfielder in my squad and neither of them are any good!)

Tactics:

To take advantage of where I'm strongest, I need to build a tactic around a formation that includes Cattermole at DM, my two AMR/AMLs and my two strikers. There's no way I can take advantage of them all (a DM, two wingers and two strikers would leave me with only one CM - or a three man defence without wingbacks, which I'm not keen on).

I'm therefore going to start with a 4-5-1 formation. This will allow me to play Cattermole as DM and my two wingers. I'll alternative between Fletcher and Scocco in the one striker post as needed.

[jjtile]

So, to start off I've created three really simply tactics.

1. 451 Counter

At the start, I'm going to make this my main tactic. This is because I've got some reasonably pace amongst my strikers and wingers/inside forwards - but, as I'm Sunderland, I'm certain I'm going to spend a lot of time defending. I'm going to play a slightly higher tempo to try to get the ball upfield quickly when the opportunity arises and exploit the flanks to take advantage of my wingers (and mitigate my awful central midfield).

I usually wouldn't want both my winger and fullback on attack duty on the same side - but, because Adam Johnson is the only one of my wingers with decent finishing/long shots, I want him to be the one attacking goal and Alonso is the only one of my fullbacks ok going forward. I'll keep an eye on this in-game to check whether its working or not.

I'm hoping the goals come through my IF cutting inside and having a go and/or my IF, DLF and CM(a) arriving into the box to score off crosses from my winger or FB(a)

2. 451 Defensive

For when I'm really under attack or holding a lead. Same as above except with a defensive mentality and removing the additional tempo (to minimise mistakes) and removing exploit the flanks (to hold my wingers back a little)

3. 451 Attack

Same as counter except with an attacking mentality. This is for when I really need a goal or just want to mix things up a bit.

Going to try these out and report back

[Cleon]

I like those tactics I really do. I love the counter one as that's pretty close to something I used on one of my throw away saves. I do have one question though;

At the start, I'm going to make this my main tactic. This is because I've got some reasonably pace amongst my strikers and wingers/inside forwards - but, as I'm Sunderland, I'm certain I'm going to spend a lot of time defending. I'm going to play a slightly higher tempo to try to get the ball upfield quickly when the opportunity arises and exploit the flanks to take advantage of my wingers (and mitigate my awful central midfield).

This could also see you give the ball away needlessly so keep a close eye on it. You're basically telling the players to play at a very fast speed and get the ball upfront quickly. So if this happens and your side is deep then it could be a good chance wasted. I honestly don't see the need for it in the set up with the roles and duties you've selected. Remember your attackers might be fast but the defence/midfield is quite slow looking at the attributes above so if you give possession away too early when they do advance forward then you risk being caught on the counter yourself with slow players. So its something to keep look out for imo

[jjtile]

@Cleon

Thanks for this. Really glad you think they're broadly good tactics - as it makes me confident I'm on the right track.

To be honest, I wondered about the inclusion of tempo too. I think I'm still a bit over-eager on the team instructions and maybe just felt that one TI wasn't enough. Will leave tempo as it is for the first couple of games (for the sake of maintaining the continuity of the thread) - but will keep a close eye on whether I'm my defenders and midfielders are giving the ball away earlier in the counter.

[Cleon]

@Cleon

Thanks for this. Really glad you think they're broadly good tactics - as it makes me confident I'm on the right track.

To be honest, I wondered about the inclusion of tempo too. I think I'm still a bit over-eager on the team instructions and maybe just felt that one TI wasn't enough. Will leave tempo as it is for the first couple of games (for the sake of maintaining the continuity of the thread) - but will keep a close eye on whether I'm my defenders and midfielders are giving the ball away earlier in the counter.

Don't use a TI just for the sake of it, use them because you need to use them. It'll be good keeping it for a few games though as you'll see how it works and what it does to your players in terms of rushing play or making it feel forced at times.

[lewis999]

On the subject of increasing the tempo I find it can be a really good TI at around the 70th minute if you're dominating put you can't find a way through. It's worked for me a few times.

[Lord Rowell]

As you might gather by my username if you're old enough I am a Sunderland supporter

Currently in a long-ish term save, 2022-23 season, established as a regular ECL club but its tough getting to the next level.

Do you still have Jozy Altidore in your team as I didn't see his screenshot? If you do, and I stumbled on this by chance, he makes one hell of a Shadow Striker.

I made it my mission to get Connor Wickham to be the best he can be, though injury hampered my efforts. He can eventually make the England squad but won't be a regular.

Mavrias will get much better - he was my little supersub Solskjaer for a while

Giaccherini is great, I only let him go a couple of seasons ago well into his 30's. He goes on and on, very versatile and will always do a job for you.

Larsson - I played him an awful lot as a wingback. He can play there and was surprisingly decent for me, prolonged his time with me.

There's enough firepower up front and enough quality in midfield to keep you out of trouble first couple of seasons. Also, in my save, I started before Jan 2014 so didn't have Bridcutt & the Argentine signings, you have those already in your squad.

As Cleon said, there's no pace in the defence so to push on you'll need to address that.

[tvdx]

I have a good save with Sunderland going at the moment, I managed to finish 3rd which was nice. Playing with an updated database from about 3 weeks ago, so I have Rodwell, PvA, Jones and Vergini. Made a tactic which seems to work okay, I'm not the best tactician so I was somewhat surprised to see how it worked.

Just started the second season and I'm having a bit more trouble, (2 wins and 2 draws) but I always seem to struggle second season.

http://i.imgur.com/EADTlSA.png

Aiming to play in a Poyet-esque way, short passing, keeping possession and getting the wing backs pushing forwards.

[jjtile]

*sigh* Really thought I'd cracked it this time.

Players were making a lot of mistakes (kicking the balls out at short range, "passing" the ball to the opposition at short range and trying unrealistic long balls that were intercepted or went out) in preseason and so, over time, I got rid of "High Tempo" as Cleon had suggested. Players were still giving the ball away straight to the opposition a lot of the time and I was conceding a lot of goals from strikers running in behind the defence and getting on the end of through balls - so I added "drop deeper" and "retain possession" to try to mitigate that happening.

After that, I had a decent start to the season - peaking at 8th after nine games. However. Everything went wrong in the second half of the season. Without changing anything tactically, I started to, once again, concede from opposition strikers running in behind my defence and latching on to through balls (this time, especially from wide positions). I also seemed to start conceding a lot of goals from headers which hadn't been a problem before. The old problems with making a large number of passing mistakes also returned. My goals also seemed to dry up too.

As I was already playing counter with "drop deeper" and "retain possession", I wasn't really sure what to do - as it wasn't like I was playing a high tempo passing game or sitting high up the pitch and leaving a lot of space behind my defence. I experimented with a cover/stopper combo (to try to catch the runners) and switched my defensive midfielder from Lee Cattermole to Liam Bridcutt (who, despite his poorer attributes, was - on every statistic from tackling to passing percentages and totals having a better season) but it hasn't made any difference.

I've just had an ultimatum from the board that I need to get 9 points from the next 5 games or I'm out

[Torskus77]

The problem is, if you don't offer anything in attack, it becomes impossible to defend. With a team like Sunderland, I guess sitting deep and playing on the counter is okay, but trying to use retain possession too, this is a very sever Team Instruction, and I think I'd prefer to be a bit more direct with a team like Sunderland. If you are sitting deep, and trying to play your way up the pitch, with a mediocre team like Sunderland, I can see this being a big problem, and probably why you are conceding a lot, because there is no release of pressure at all. You have 2 advanced wide players, I would be wanting the ball to get to them as quickly as possible so they can do some damage.

[jjtile]

The problem is, if you don't offer anything in attack, it becomes impossible to defend. With a team like Sunderland, I guess sitting deep and playing on the counter is okay, but trying to use retain possession too, this is a very sever Team Instruction, and I think I'd prefer to be a bit more direct with a team like Sunderland. If you are sitting deep, and trying to play your way up the pitch, with a mediocre team like Sunderland, I can see this being a big problem, and probably why you are conceding a lot, because there is no release of pressure at all. You have 2 advanced wide players, I would be wanting the ball to get to them as quickly as possible so they can do some damage.

Thanks, this is really useful advice. If I don't use retain possession, what would you recommend re mitigating my "pass misplacing" team? Is there another, less severe way of addressing this?

[Torskus77]

They could be just misplacing passes because your instructions aren't in cohesion with how your players are set up. The overall set up of your roles seem okay to me, nothing there that should be causing major problems, just remember that you are Sunderland not Real Madrid. You can't really expect to pass your way to success with Sunderland in my opinion. It may be what Gus Poyet see's as his vision, but from what I saw of Sunderland last season, a lot of their success towards the end of the season was down to a few players who performed exceptionally well. Borini being one of them, they used his pace, I'm fairly sure they didn't do this by an overly patient approach.

Looking at your Counter Tactic example. I like they layout of roles here a lot. I would absolutely drop exploit flanks unless it is for a specific reason though during a game, I don't see this as being an engraved Team Instruction, it has quite a dramatic affect, as it changes the approach of your Full Backs, and your center midfielders, not sure if you knew this. I think clear ball to the flanks would be a fine addition in replacement of this. Higher Tempo is fine, just keep an eye on things, because this could be why you are misplacing a lot of passes. Using Counter you will have a fairly cautious approach, so higher tempo should be fine, but it could be contributing.

Looking at your roles, you have 0 specialist roles, which makes me think you should use Fluid philosophy at least, there could be a severe lack of movement because of your bland role selection, the roles are fine as such, but may need a tad more creative freedom to get things working. I'd like a DLP (d) instead of a DM (d) if you have the right player available, but this is no big deal, the lack of creative freedom with 0 specialist roles could be problematic. I think you would see an instant improvement if you used Fluid rather than Balanced personally.

[jjtile]

Thanks Torskus. The drop deeper and retain possession instructions certainly weren't meant to try to turn Sunderland into a silky passing team - they were simply attempts to mitigate the sub-70% pass completion stats I was seeing in pre-season, which seemed to be driven by silly mistakes all over the pitch. What pass completion % would you judge to be acceptable for a team like Sunderland?

On Fluidity (forget to mention in last nights posts), I'd already started to play "very fluid" at the start of the season for the very reasons you outline.

I took your advice. Got rid of exploit flanks in favour of clear to flanks and got rid of "drop deeper". I think I saw a marginal imporovement.

Unfortunately, I only took 3 points from the next five games and was fired.

[Torskus77]

Unfortunately, when you get on a bad run, things just don't go your way, and you do need a bit of luck to dig yourself out of it. Shame about being sacked though, sure they made a mistake and you would have turned it round.

[jjtile]

Unfortunately, when you get on a bad run, things just don't go your way, and you do need a bit of luck to dig yourself out of it. Shame about being sacked though, sure they made a mistake and you would have turned it round.

Indeed (hope you didn't read the above as "i did what you said and got fired. wtf?". Just reporting back)

[Torskus77]

No mate. It's very difficult to get out of a rut, I've been there a few times in my long term Walsall save. Always survived the sack, but had some stinking runs, and almost ran out of ideas. You aren't that far away from a decent set up there honestly.

[Lord Rowell]

Sorry to hear you got fired.

FWIW, looking at your results in January, you had a stinking run of fixtures (Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool x 2) in 4/5 consecutive games, which no doubt made morale & confidence plummet. So, when you got to the more winnable fixtures, it became very difficult to turn it around.

I do think morale is overcooked in FM14. Don't be hard on yourself and my advice is, when you get a run like this again, don't be afraid to replay a winnable game if you need to break the bad run - its not cheating its compensating for a failure in the game itself.

[smplfc123]

Hey guys!

If it makes you feel any better 'jjtile' you've inspired me to start as Sunderland!

I'm using the latest update, i'm going to try and find the balance between playing good passing football when I can, but not getting over complicated with a squad that's not ready for that yet!

I'm on a real struggle with FM at the moment, so i'm hoping i can make this work!

[Lord Rowell]

Currently in a long-ish term save, 2022-23 season, established as a regular ECL club but its tough getting to the next level.

Since I posted this, my virtual game world totally changed. Sunderland were taken over by a multi-billionaire Malaysian businessman and, bluntly, he's thrown silly money at the club.

Made a few key signings and am now well on the way to my first Premiership title with Sunderland in this save.

[Torskus77]

Been looking at Sunderland with the view of starting a save with them (on FMC) after my Southampton save where I won the league in the first season, wasn't really the challenge I was looking for, although I am still playing it, kind of left me a little deflated.

Looking at Sunderland's squad, 4-4-2 seems a better fit as they have 2 decent strikers, and several decent wide players. They are a little weak in the center. Very slow at the back, think it would be quite a challenge, and I haven't used 4-4-2 for donkeys years, but I am considering giving it a go. I'd probably still have a 4-5-1/4-3-3- tactic too, but focus mainly on 4-4-2 with the starting squad they have.