Apparently I still Don't Know What I'm Doing...

[bababooey]

Kylemann

I have tried at times other approaches, so for example in the beginning of the season we used attacking every once in a while, and it had varied degrees of success. I think the key there was that I was uncomfortable with my individual player mentalities, and I didn't like how far up the pitch my back line would go. The back line doesn't have much pace, and being more conservative I'd rather they sat a bit deeper.

So therein lies my thinking of using counter. I'll add that using counter HAS given me good results, it's not as if my team can't win or anything. We're doing extremely well, I just want to see a bit more consistency in terms of not losing possession 35% or whatever.

But more on the counter: I wanted the team to position itself a bit deeper than say Standard, and certainly not as far forward as control or attacking. The other thing is the type of passing.. the base mentality changes your passing too, and I know that with the counter mentality my team will play more direct from the back, which is what I wanted. As opposed to the slower build up from the back in a control strategy, for example.

But the larger point is that yes I was confused about counter attacks and the actual counter mentality, that was my bad. But I also would add I'm not interested in winning the ball extremely high up the pitch, I'm looking for a middle ground.

We often hear "low block" or "high block" defending, but I want to find a middle ground because I do not trust my players to press super high up the pitch, and I also think we can still be dangerous without playing a high block.

[bababooey]

bieritarier

You've given me a lot to think about here regarding the closing down and having players in a position to actually win the ball back. I would also add that I think you best interpreted what I was trying to write about in my OP, which is that the issue was teams being able to hold possession against me, and we weren't able to get the ball back. And I was certainly hesitant to go attacking as Kylemann mentioned, because if I went attacking in this case, I may not get possession back and I would be left out even worse defensively.

The biggest issue my team has is that the two positions (AML/AMR) have been critical to scoring goals, but they're also a problem with winning the ball back. But I'm kind of forced to use them because A. I can't use 3 or 4 strikers at a time, B. they're naturally suited to play there (Son, Sam, Ruiz, Kruse, etc.) and C. it seemed to fit perfectly well with my other players as we have many CM's / DM's. So a 4-1-2-2-1 was a natural choice.

The funny thing is, is that it's not like the team aren't playing well. And my original intent was to just get advice on how to win the ball back better in this context, but it has since snowballed into some huge thing lol

[bieritarier]

yep, I understand. It was the same for me. I won most matches, home and away. It just didn't feel right, and if there's one thing I can't stand then it#s seeing the AI do things you cannot replicate to save your life. Such things generally point to 2 possiblities. a) the AI is cheating, and we know it is not

b) you are making a tactical "mistake" the AI doesn't make. and for me that'S reason enough to try and fix it. It's not about scoring 5 goals each match. it'S not about making every move perfect. it's not about winning every game. It's about seeing players try to do what you want them to, and not hand over the space between the opp goalline and your own penalty box to the opposition, no matter how deep your backline is.

I think the point is that nobody on here was expecting to create 65% possession with a counter attacking tactic. But Leverkusen is one of the top 4 sides in the league so unless there'S an issue with role or player selection, every strategy should allow for 40-50% possession minimum against all but 4-5 teams. so I believe in a nutshell your question really was: why is my midfield not attacking theirs at all?

[bababooey]

yep, I understand. It was the same for me. I won most matches, home and away. It just didn't feel right, and if there's one thing I can't stand then it#s seeing the AI do things you cannot replicate to save your life. Such things generally point to 2 possiblities. a) the AI is cheating, and we know it is not

b) you are making a tactical "mistake" the AI doesn't make. and for me that'S reason enough to try and fix it. It's not about scoring 5 goals each match. it'S not about making every move perfect. it's not about winning every game. It's about seeing players try to do what you want them to, and not hand over the space between the opp goalline and your own penalty box to the opposition, no matter how deep your backline is.

I think the point is that nobody on here was expecting to create 65% possession with a counter attacking tactic. But Leverkusen is one of the top 4 sides in the league so unless there'S an issue with role or player selection, every strategy should allow for 40-50% possession minimum against all but 4-5 teams. so I believe in a nutshell your question really was: why is my midfield not attacking theirs at all?

Yeah exactly I'm winning matches (and drawing some) but it doesn't feel quite right, we've been lucky in a good number of matches.. (and quite unlucky with some late goals on set pieces, too).

As Leverkusen I expect to be the better team in 90% of my matches, and I certainly expect on any mentality as you say to have a good amount of the ball. I dont even care how much of it, as long as we're not seeing terrible numbers in the 30's or low 40's.

Totally agree about your last point too. My midfielders simply weren't going after theirs no matter what I did. I tried specific marking, hassle, etc. etc.

Right now as I post this I'm in a match against Braunschweig at home. So I expect to dominate the game, but they're having ~60% of the ball... We are up 1-0 after 20 mins though, after a beauty of a goal from Son. But it's very concerning how they're keeping so much of the ball in our building.. using a 4-1-4-1...

As simple as it can be, really.. When we play bigger teams we go 4-1-4-1 defensive, balanced, and we have the ML/MR set as wide midfielders who cut inside. Also use fullbacks not wingbacks in the defensive tactic. Just drew Bayern 2-2 with the defensive tactic, but the 2 goals conceded were absolutely brutal, no chance at stopping them (set piece + long shot from Ribery)

[bababooey]

update

currently being ripped apart by Frieburg's bog-standard 4-4-2 away from home .... We simply refuse to win the ball back, still. Even after bumping up to attacking mentality...

I tried using OI's on the central midfielders, which SHOULD in theory really hurt them given they're only a midfield pair, no effect all. I used closing down always, tight marking, normal tackling, show to weaker foot and Darida manages to achieve over 90% passing and he's pulling the strings.

Absolutely frustrating...

Newer Update

Clawed back the game to 2-2 after going: attacking, 4-2-3-1, hassle opponents, run at defense.

Frieburg tried to kill the game off by going very defensive and we were able to make them pay.

But the real problem lies in our starting tactic unfortunately..

[bieritarier]

yea, that's one frustrating piece I also haven't figured out how to consistently take particular players out of the game. The problem I find is that my player's covering positions aren't matching the radius these guys operate in. It gets even worse if the opp players start off deep and go on a lot of runs and roam around heavily. Braunschweig is one of the teams I havne't quite sorted as well. THey always have good possession numbers - I wan every match against them, but 3 times it was a 1-0 and the other one was a 2-1 after extra time. This team is using tactics that seem to be a bit overpowered by the ME right now since they sit 6th in the second season after 22 games played and also finished top half last year.

So maybe a question is: how do you put pressure on opp centre/defensive mids/get your player to be closer to them all the was from the get go? Use a striker to specific mark these guys?

[FMWolf]

bieritarier: Having that exact problem, even if playing 3 in the midfield against 2, they just seem to be every where, both defendind and attacking. And that makes, at least for me, 4-4-2 being so much of a treat for me. What instructions do the AI use? Very fluid? Roam from position on their midfielders? Box-to-box midfielders? Hassle opponents? I don't really know but it works wonder against me

[bababooey]

I am not sure how to go about solving this problem of pressuring the opposition (aside from playing an insane pressing game ala dortmund IRL)

Right now I'm going to do a little bit of FMC with Boca Juniors and try out the Enganche role

[Klyemann]

Well, If your midfielders are the problem, maybe try individual instructions?

I have both my MCs set to close down more, but I play on attacking mentality, so I'm not sure how it would turn out on a less aggressive tactics.

My midfield trio is consisted of AP(a), DLP(s), and Anchor man(d)... The logic behind it is, that I want my MCs closing down as soon as possible, and I have my Anchor man instructed to ease off tackles, to offer a defensive cover and not get caught in reckless tackles.

[sriracha]

I am not sure how to go about solving this problem of pressuring the opposition (aside from playing an insane pressing game ala dortmund IRL)

Can't guarantee that it'll help but this is a fantastic read.

[bababooey]

Can't guarantee that it'll help but this is a fantastic read.

Thanks for the link Sriracha, I actually read that a few months ago ago but completely forgot about it. I'll have to go over it again carefully, and hopefully it will help out. Thanks again.

[bieritarier]

Well, If your midfielders are the problem, maybe try individual instructions?

I have both my MCs set to close down more, but I play on attacking mentality, so I'm not sure how it would turn out on a less aggressive tactics.

My midfield trio is consisted of AP(a), DLP(s), and Anchor man(d)... The logic behind it is, that I want my MCs closing down as soon as possible, and I have my Anchor man instructed to ease off tackles, to offer a defensive cover and not get caught in reckless tackles.

I'm playing AP(s), CM(a), DM(d), with the AP and CM also set to close down more. They still retreat into the box whenever the oppositon winger takes the ball past the edge of the penalty box. Yet, the AI teams midfielder don'T do it evne when these buggers are clearly parking the bus. There must be a way to keep my midfielders higher to try and intercept passes back to the opp MCs/Full backs/defenders but I have not found the solution yet...

Can't guarantee that it'll help but this is a fantastic read.

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately this doesn't solve my problem. I do use push higher up, I do use hassle, I do use an attacking strategy. Yet my players decide 20 yards away from the full backs and wingers is close enough. my centre mids aren'T quite as bad, just 10 for them. Just can't win the ball back at times and have no clue how to get my guys into position to do it. tired about all of the stuff in this guide as well, but I just cannot find a setting to really keep my front line pressurizing the opposition team, especially full backs. If the solution is called defensive wingers, and nothign else will work then I consider this a bug...

[bababooey]

Yeah I think it might be about work rate. My team has poor work rate, almost last in the bundeliga... Hassle + attacking + get stuck in sometimes doesnt close down enough either.

[bieritarier]

Yeah I think it might be about work rate. My team has poor work rate, almost last in the bundeliga... Hassle + attacking + get stuck in sometimes doesnt close down enough either.

Right in these case I either blame the researchers for messing up the attributes or SI for overexaggerating the effect of work rate on pressing. Then again, I've seen players with a lot less work rate and aggression than mine play a picture perfect pressing game. so it can'T be just that

[bababooey]

I don't blame the ME or any bugs or anything. I think there is just a certain mix of roles/duties/instructions/mentality that I am not quite hitting..

I don't really have much choice but to play a 4-1-2-2-1 given my current squad, as it fits the team perfectly, but I'm just at a loss for getting my team to actually make some tackles and win the ball back.

We're jekyll and hide really.. Go to Nou Camp and draw Barca 1-1 while playing a fast attacking game. Go to HSV play the same strategy and get beat 2-0 watching 2 DM's dominate the passing game in our half of the pitch.

[bieritarier]

I don't blame the ME or any bugs or anything. I think there is just a certain mix of roles/duties/instructions/mentality that I am not quite hitting..

I don't really have much choice but to play a 4-1-2-2-1 given my current squad, as it fits the team perfectly, but I'm just at a loss for getting my team to actually make some tackles and win the ball back.

We're jekyll and hide really.. Go to Nou Camp and draw Barca 1-1 while playing a fast attacking game. Go to HSV play the same strategy and get beat 2-0 watching 2 DM's dominate the passing game in our half of the pitch.

well, you try to counter from a solid foundation and I still believe the 4-1-2-2-1 isn'T really solid defensively, not with the way the ME treats AML/Rs in that they defensively behave more like strikers than midfielders.

If you play inverted wingers (right footed on the left, left footed on the right) you might not need to use inside forwards on both sides to get them to cut inside, and if they have the cuts inside OI even less so. Have you tried defensive wingers? Maybe just on one side, with a more aggressive Full back in behind, could use a defensive full back (suport or defend duty) behind and attacking IF on the other side, an dmake sure the more defensive of the 2 CMs plays on the side of the more cautious full back to provide the additional cover that the inside forward won't.

I gotta say, changing to 4-1-4-1 was the best decision I've ever made on FM..... just won the league, 89:6 goals with 98 pts. It's amazing how defensively solid a 4-1-4-1 seems to be, even with 3 attack duties and attack/control strategy. for what it'S worth, I don'T have any natural ML/MRs in the squad either....

[bababooey]

well, you try to counter from a solid foundation and I still believe the 4-1-2-2-1 isn'T really solid defensively, not with the way the ME treats AML/Rs in that they defensively behave more like strikers than midfielders.

If you play inverted wingers (right footed on the left, left footed on the right) you might not need to use inside forwards on both sides to get them to cut inside, and if they have the cuts inside OI even less so. Have you tried defensive wingers? Maybe just on one side, with a more aggressive Full back in behind, could use a defensive full back (suport or defend duty) behind and attacking IF on the other side, an dmake sure the more defensive of the 2 CMs plays on the side of the more cautious full back to provide the additional cover that the inside forward won't.

I gotta say, changing to 4-1-4-1 was the best decision I've ever made on FM..... just won the league, 89:6 goals with 98 pts. It's amazing how defensively solid a 4-1-4-1 seems to be, even with 3 attack duties and attack/control strategy. for what it'S worth, I don'T have any natural ML/MRs in the squad either....

Well I am glad to hear your 4-1-4-1 is working well for you but of course that is just one example, and with your specific squad. Bayern right? No surprise to me that it works.

I have tried a bunch of different things but in general my aim is to have 1 winger and 1 IF. I want the winger to hug the touchline and the inside forward to act as a second striker, which he does at times.

the 4-1-2-2-1 should be defensively solid as it is just another type of 4-5-1, and my defensive has been okay. The problem is with winning the damn ball back.

[Rob4590]

Could I offer a suggestion that your team instructions are not helping you retain possession at all?

You have Run at Defence - which will (I imagine) make your players run with the ball, rather than pass it around looking for a 'good option' - dribbling more is going to lead to losing possession more often than a patient passing game. Plus it is far easier to attack quickly by passing the ball forward than dribbling it!

You have drill crosses - which I believe tends to encourage early / quick crosses to the near post - again this will lose possession easily.

You also have 'Stay on Feet' - which tends to discourage players from making quick decisive tackles to recover possession - so the opposition won't be pressured as much. If you really want to use this shout, then add 'Hassle Opponent' - so at least one of your players puts the ball carrier under some pressure, even if he doesn't actually make an early tackle?

Surely if you are the better side then just let your players play their game rather than trying to tell them how to play- so remove those instructions?

In various other threads, it is strongly suggested that if you are struggling to get enough possession, you should either add 'Play out of Defence' - which makes your defenders play a shorter passing game (but still allows direct balls from more attacking players), or 'Lower Tempo' (which again encourages a more patient initial passage of play). I know that this instruction would (on the surface) be contradictory to counter attacking, but you will still (from my current experience of using a counter 4-1-2-2-1) still get counters if they are on.

Just a thought!

[burdinho]

I'm surprised that nobody pointed out the flaws in your most basic principals yet.

First:

You say that you don't want to move away from Counter, but you complain about possession? Counterattacking football, bi definition, plays with a deep defense, standing of opponents. This invites the opponent to have the ball for longer periods of time, trying to break your defense and pushing more and more man forward, creating a huge space behind them. You then try to quickly exploit that space when you win the ball. THAT is counterattacking football, and I'm not sure that it is really what you want.

Good luck

exactly!

[bababooey]

Could I offer a suggestion that your team instructions are not helping you retain possession at all?

You have Run at Defence - which will (I imagine) make your players run with the ball, rather than pass it around looking for a 'good option' - dribbling more is going to lead to losing possession more often than a patient passing game. Plus it is far easier to attack quickly by passing the ball forward than dribbling it!

You have drill crosses - which I believe tends to encourage early / quick crosses to the near post - again this will lose possession easily.

You also have 'Stay on Feet' - which tends to discourage players from making quick decisive tackles to recover possession - so the opposition won't be pressured as much. If you really want to use this shout, then add 'Hassle Opponent' - so at least one of your players puts the ball carrier under some pressure, even if he doesn't actually make an early tackle?

Surely if you are the better side then just let your players play their game rather than trying to tell them how to play- so remove those instructions?

In various other threads, it is strongly suggested that if you are struggling to get enough possession, you should either add 'Play out of Defence' - which makes your defenders play a shorter passing game (but still allows direct balls from more attacking players), or 'Lower Tempo' (which again encourages a more patient initial passage of play). I know that this instruction would (on the surface) be contradictory to counter attacking, but you will still (from my current experience of using a counter 4-1-2-2-1) still get counters if they are on.

Just a thought!

You are correct. I change my team instructions quite often but I have noticed that run at defence is causing problems. The thinking was that because we have blistering pace on the wings that we could use this to our advantage, but it hasn't helped us keep the ball one bit.

Stay on feet is an instruction that I no longer use in my main tactic, as this thread is a bit behind the times now 29 games in to the season and we're 2nd in Germany, 2 points off the top.

The key has been to play more attacking and take the shackles off, really.

[bababooey]

Would it be possible for one of the mods to delete this thread? Things have changed drastically since I posted it and I'd rather it didn't take up space for someone else who might need help!

thanks!

[Cleon]

I'll close the thread