potter3 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Operating system - OSX Service packs installed - ? Net connection - Cable ISP - Virgin Media Router involved - Linksys BEFSR41v3 Anti virus software - None except the default ones Firewall software - Yes, don't know what type Trying to play a LAN game, set it all up but when I click to connect to the server it comes up with this message: http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1cj2.png Do I have to forwards ports on my router and/or do something with the firewall just for a LAN game? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
potter3 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by potter3: Operating system - OSX Service packs installed - ? Net connection - Cable ISP - Virgin Media Router involved - Linksys BEFSR41v3 Anti virus software - None except the default ones Firewall software - Yes, don't know what type Trying to play a LAN game, set it all up but when I click to connect to the server it comes up with this message: http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1cj2.png Do I have to forwards ports on my router and/or do something with the firewall just for a LAN game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Oops forgot, we both have the 8.0.2 patch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamianY2J Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by potter3: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by potter3: Operating system - OSX Service packs installed - ? Net connection - Cable ISP - Virgin Media Router involved - Linksys BEFSR41v3 Anti virus software - None except the default ones Firewall software - Yes, don't know what type Trying to play a LAN game, set it all up but when I click to connect to the server it comes up with this message: http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1cj2.png Do I have to forwards ports on my router and/or do something with the firewall just for a LAN game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Oops forgot, we both have the 8.0.2 patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, the server PC will have to forward ports and allow access the FM.exe through their firewall. The other computers in the LAN will have to ensure their firewalls are set to allow access too, but won't need to fiddle with their port settings, etc. (at least I didn't have to). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J: When I'm playing my online game with 2 people, sometimes they seem to have about 75 messages but can't view any of them, and can't view any new ones that come in either. The main screen says "75 new messages, 6 unread", but they can't see any of them. I read earlier in this forum that it was a common bug but it's now happening every few minutes, even when we disconnect the game and reconnect, it happens again in a few minutes. How do we stop this from happening? Also, every now and then, but more usually when one of us human players plays another human player, one of us will get a screen saying Waiting as if we were waiting for the others, so we think nothing's wrong, but what is actually happening is that the game has progressed for everyone else, and the game has actually started (presumably with the computer taking over one of the human teams). When the status page is checked after the game, the human player who's still "Waiting" is shown as Not Connected, although he hasn't actually been booted out visibly. For some strange reason, this normally results in a heavy loss (5-0 or 6-0) in the favour of the human player that has remained in the game. Can someone tell me how to stop these problems happening in the future? Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds to me like people in your game have been editing their own databases and this in turns lead to a very unstable online game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamianY2J Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 No, they haven't. They don't have the editors on their computers. If someone uses a save game editor to look at players (not edit at all, just view), why would this cause an unstable game? I don't even think people have been doing this. Any other suggestions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
potter3 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by potter3: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by potter3: Operating system - OSX Service packs installed - ? Net connection - Cable ISP - Virgin Media Router involved - Linksys BEFSR41v3 Anti virus software - None except the default ones Firewall software - Yes, don't know what type Trying to play a LAN game, set it all up but when I click to connect to the server it comes up with this message: http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1cj2.png Do I have to forwards ports on my router and/or do something with the firewall just for a LAN game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Oops forgot, we both have the 8.0.2 patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, the server PC will have to forward ports and allow access the FM.exe through their firewall. The other computers in the LAN will have to ensure their firewalls are set to allow access too, but won't need to fiddle with their port settings, etc. (at least I didn't have to). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok thanks I can't seem to find it but what is that site that tells you how to forwards ports on routers for games? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDXCougar8173 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 this is what you need Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapshot Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 just a quick question guys: can you tell me on average how much internet traffic(in MB) does one spend playing FM for 1 hour? Thanks in advance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J: No, they haven't. They don't have the editors on their computers. If someone uses a save game editor to look at players (not edit at all, just view), why would this cause an unstable game? I don't even think people have been doing this. Any other suggestions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I am not talking about save game editors I am talking about editing the actual database that comes with the game. So if players playing your game have changed competition names or players stats on their own copy of the game this may have an adverse effect on the online game. Do not ask me why but from past experience these changes cause instability during online games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamianY2J Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 No, no-one has done this. Is there any other causes? Has it happened to other people? I remember a few posts ago, someone mentioned the messages problem was a "common bug". This indicates other people might have encountered a similar thing to me. Has anyone solved it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapshot Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snapshot: just a quick question guys: can you tell me on average how much internet traffic(in MB) does one spend playing FM for 1 hour? Thanks in advance </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunga99 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Haven't a clue to be honest but if have a download limit with your provider, are worried about going over your limit I wouldn't as it would be very minimal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crshearer3181 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Gone through the whole port forwarding process with no joy. Still saying 'could not connect to server'. Operating system? XP Service packs installed? no Net connection? 4meg ISP? Virgin/NTL Router involved? Linksys WRT54GC Anti virus software? CA - but turned off Firewall software? (as above - CA but turned off) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Parnakas Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Do I have to have static IP? My IP every day changes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapshot Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunga99: Haven't a clue to be honest but if have a download limit with your provider, are worried about going over your limit I wouldn't as it would be very minimal </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You think its under 10mb per hour? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDXCougar8173 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Parnakas: Do I have to have static IP? My IP every day changes! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> in a word NO you dont need a static ip mine changes everytime i reboot or turn on my pc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapshot Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Snapshot: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunga99: Haven't a clue to be honest but if have a download limit with your provider, are worried about going over your limit I wouldn't as it would be very minimal </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You think its under 10mb per hour? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamianY2J Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Snapshot, why did you quote yourself? And why do you want to know? I would suggest it depends on how quickly you play the multiplayer game, how many messages you send to each other, how many leagues you have running, what detail they are at, what size database, etc? It's too difficult to say it's a precise figure for definite. It depends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 Snapshot can you please stop quoting your own posts it is getting rather annoying. You only need to post once and if someone knows then they will post a reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rega Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I have a very limited knowledge of network gaming so was wondering if someone could answer the following: 1. I seem unable to get a static ip address (tried everything). Does this mean I cannot play FM online? 2. If I use my hamachi ip address can I bypass the need for a static ip address? 3. What does forwarding ports mean? How does this assist me in playing FM online? 4. Can I forward ports without a static ip address, perhaps with a hamachi ip address? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamianY2J Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy H: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J: No, they haven't. They don't have the editors on their computers. If someone uses a save game editor to look at players (not edit at all, just view), why would this cause an unstable game? I don't even think people have been doing this. Any other suggestions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I am not talking about save game editors I am talking about editing the actual database that comes with the game. So if players playing your game have changed competition names or players stats on their own copy of the game this may have an adverse effect on the online game. Do not ask me why but from past experience these changes cause instability during online games. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I haven't used any editors. All 3 people are using 7.0.2. The game has run smoothly for 3 seasons but now is going weird. My game, as the host, is fine, but the other 2 have varying problems. From time to time, they get the messages error (it says they have 125 messages but they can't access them. When they quit and re-join, they can access their messages but they only have 6 or so, which I'm assuming is the accurate figure). They are now getting an error where on match days, it freezes on the Team Talk page, but my game as the host progresses normally and I can see the AI take control of their teams. The other 2 humans can also view their own matches but dont have any ability to change tactics. It's odd. If the computer is taking control of their matches, I would expect the human players statuses would be "Not Connected", but when I check the status page, all 3 people are "Playing". The frequency of these problems is getting more and more, but it seems weird after 3 problem-free seasons. There's been no editors used (no pre-game or save-game ones). The 7.0.2 database hasn't been altered in any way. We are all using the default skin, and all have the official bought-in-shop CD in our machines. Has anyone experienced anything similiar and does anyone have any things for me to try to fix our game, because it's really annoying. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reo19uk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Not sure if anyone can help me on this but i've been having an online games with two other people one person dropped and now when tries to get back in it states unable to connect! The other person can still connect so i'm not sure what to do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rega: I have a very limited knowledge of network gaming so was wondering if someone could answer the following: 1. I seem unable to get a static ip address (tried everything). Does this mean I cannot play FM online? 2. If I use my hamachi ip address can I bypass the need for a static ip address? 3. What does forwarding ports mean? How does this assist me in playing FM online? 4. Can I forward ports without a static ip address, perhaps with a hamachi ip address? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> 1. You do not need to have a static IP to play FM online. 2. Never used Hamachi. 3. Check out portforward.com for all information on forwarding ports and what it is. Just click on guides and then 'What is port forwarding?'. 4. See my answer to question 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rega Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Thanks Andy. Appreciate it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykal88 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Hey people. Does anyone know if you can actually get everyone to play matches on the same time and day cause it could save so much time if you could. Im playing FM online with 3 friends and it takes long because you have to wait for the others to finish their matches etc. when it could be so much more simple if everyone played the games on the same day and time. Does anyone know if its actually possible? thanks alot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mykal88: Hey people. Does anyone know if you can actually get everyone to play matches on the same time and day cause it could save so much time if you could. Im playing FM online with 3 friends and it takes long because you have to wait for the others to finish their matches etc. when it could be so much more simple if everyone played the games on the same day and time. Does anyone know if its actually possible? thanks alot </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Again if you read this thread and the FAO you would already know your answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykal88 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 i have looked but cant seem to find much help. all i can see is "move matches for tv" but that doesnt really make a difference or maybe its cause of the way i've done it. Does all users have to have move matches for tv unticked? thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazydaveok Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Sorry if this has been covered before. i did do a search but couldn't find anything. The problem is when i want to watch a match a friend online is playing but a european competition is being played at the same time. If i click on latest scores, the only fixtures that show up are the european ones so i can't select view match to watch his match (a pain if i'm not playing at the same time). thanks in advance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDXCougar8173 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 at top of screen goto world then if it european game you click on europe and if its a league game or domestic cup game you want to watch then click on the appropriate country IE england then prem or fa cup Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stabwest Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lazydaveok: Sorry if this has been covered before. i did do a search but couldn't find anything. The problem is when i want to watch a match a friend online is playing but a european competition is being played at the same time. If i click on latest scores, the only fixtures that show up are the european ones so i can't select view match to watch his match (a pain if i'm not playing at the same time). thanks in advance </div></BLOCKQUOTE> best do this before he kicks off, if you go into your friends team and click on his fixtures, click on the - on the left hand side this will change to 'attend' and it will also give you a mention in his match commentary, quoting such n such has been spotted in the crowd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony1977 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 im havin probs getin someone to connect to my host game. ive opened up the appropiate posts and i have a static ip addy. just to clarify, is only only the host who has to forward ports? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stabwest Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 yes Tony. I've always found if someone can't connect then the problem is at there end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mykal88: i have looked but cant seem to find much help. all i can see is "move matches for tv" but that doesnt really make a difference or maybe its cause of the way i've done it. Does all users have to have move matches for tv unticked? thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes when you are starting the game you should have move matches for tv unticked and so should everybody else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apaco Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Hi. Me and my friend tried to start an online game yesterday. We have done this succesfully many times at FM07. He's got a MAC and I have a PC (with vista home premium). We did exactly the things we have done before (I loaded the game and runned as server, had unticket the move matches for tv, we had the same patch - but he had the mac version and I the pc version etc). He found my IP-adresse and logged in to the game. But, when he started moving around things went extremely slow. It took 10-20 seconds to open a player profile etc. He also regulary got logged out, and had to log in again - the picture froze etc. Anyone who has got an idea what's wrong, or has the same exeperience? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennuk Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Hey just a quick question :0 I am going to be starting a network game when i get home, and have the bt home hub, when i look at portforward it only has fm05 and fm06 pages, do i just use fm06? And forward the same ports as that page? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunga99 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glennuk: Hey just a quick question :0 I am going to be starting a network game when i get home, and have the bt home hub, when i look at portforward it only has fm05 and fm06 pages, do i just use fm06? And forward the same ports as that page? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The ports for Football Manager 06 work with 07 & 08, good luck getting it working mate as a lot of people have had trouble with the BT home hub. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoNsT Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I've switched broadband's and now I'm unable to connect online, I've been on my router page and to the services section and added the ports "10093" and "10094" and allowed them on the firewall section. When i try connect with my mate, the cursor is loading but nothing is happening yet when he's off the game it just says it can't connect all together, any ideas please (Btw, I've already tried adding a UDP aswell) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennuk Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Operating system? XP Service packs installed? sp2 Net connection? 4meg ISP? bt Router involved? homehub Anti virus software? norton Firewall software? norton Sttarted game as me as server and my friend tried to join but couldnt we are using the same patch etc. he has the netgear 834gt router, does he have to forward ports Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glennuk: Operating system? XP Service packs installed? sp2 Net connection? 4meg ISP? bt Router involved? homehub Anti virus software? norton Firewall software? norton Sttarted game as me as server and my friend tried to join but couldnt we are using the same patch etc. he has the netgear 834gt router, does he have to forward ports </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If he is joining your game then no. You are hosting so you have to forward your ports. Use the information on the opening post to help you forward your ports. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennuk Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Yeh i have forwarded my ports, but he can't get on for some reason, says unable to connect to server Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 You have not forwarded them properly then. Did you use portforward.com to help you? Have port forwarded 10093 & 10094 UDP/TCP? Have you port forwarded for the internal IP that matches the one in the game status screen on FM08? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennuk Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 There is two in the game status one after or before the /? I just did it as portforward said, didn't know i ahd to do it for both before and after / if thats what you mean.....reset homehub and trying again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennuk Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Well seems to have worked so lets hope it all runs smoothly...Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 Good stuff. I actually meant that the first part of the IP on the game status screen matched the same IP you had forwarded your ports for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfc Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Operating system - Windows Vista Service packs installed - None Net connection - 16 MB ISP - SKy Broadband 16 Router involved - Netgear - Came With Sky Broadband Anti virus software - Spybot Search And Destroy Firewall software - Windows Firewall Turned Off I can connect to other people games, dont have wireless. Yet people cannot connect to my server, Ive tried all the stuff in the FAQ's Any advice would be appreciated cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Woolfc - Have you given the correct IP address to the people trying to join? Can these people ping this IP Address that you give out? Have any ports been forwarded/router configured? What else have you tried so far? What error do you get when you try to join other games? Sounds like to me that there is for example, a firewall, preventing the access outbound and inbound on these ports. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDXCougar8173 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woolfc: Anti virus software - Spybot Search And Destroy Firewall software - Windows Firewall Turned Off </div></BLOCKQUOTE> firstly Since when has spybot S&D being an antivirus program and secondly DON`T EVER TURN OFF YOUR FIREWALL FOR NOBODY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Brown Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 hi... Me and My friend were playing FM 2008 online Network, yesterday he came over to my house and we played 2 users on the same pc ( 2 managers on one pc) now he is at his house, and he cant take control of his team because i have control of both teams over here!! How do i UNCONTROL a team without retiring his manager, and just giving it to him! PLEASE HELP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 You set his holiday options and then click disconnect from server. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Brown Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy H: You set his holiday options and then click disconnect from server. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> thankyou Andy H sorry for the mess up, nice to know you are always here Keep up the good work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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