Sports scientists, nutritionists etc in future FM's

[jayahr]

Too much micro-management for my taste.

I could do with just hiring them and hoping for the best, but then that would be shallow. If I had to interact with them and decide on dinner before matchdays then this would take way too far in my view. Next is the option to create rules for sex on matchdays then...

[gogogo golem]

I've got an idea for how this can be implemented without eating into the game much. Just introduce a head of sports science, nutritionist and medical/fitness facilities, job done.

[Spart]

Too much micro-management for my taste.

I could do with just hiring them and hoping for the best, but then that would be shallow. If I had to interact with them and decide on dinner before matchdays then this would take way too far in my view. Next is the option to create rules for sex on matchdays then...

Hardly. Do you currently pick the exact stretches used in warm-ups with your match preparation settings? Have you manually inputted the length of sprints in your custom training plans?

Just introduce a head of sports science, nutritionist and medical/fitness facilities, job done.

Exactly this!

You'd just hire the specialist after either asking the board for funding/permission, and then set them a task like you already would a coach or scout.

No need to tweak the seasoning of in the club's pasta salads or enter a mini-game to fill up the hydrotherapy complex by hand. Some of the alarmist pessimism going on in here is both hilarious and terrifying.

[Bababui]

You're taking one league in one country whereas the poster below me showed numerous examples of how SS&N has been used. Where is your evidence that SS&N isn't used, or that it isn't an integral part of a coach and managers tools to get the best out of most players.

As for your argument regarding "excellent physical genetics", you're undermining yourself - (from my post) "The Milan lab has a huge influence on who they buy and squad selection." Now I'm not saying these specific players were signed because of it because the ML wasn't introduced until after many were signed however it shows how useful a tool this can be wouldn't you say?

iRL Id hire one if possible; its just not possible to model what effect they would or would not have in the game.

[Dave80]

iRL Id hire one if possible; its just not possible to model what effect they would or would not have in the game.

Of course it is, anything is possible (within reason - that ones for you trolls). 30 years ago people probably didn't foresee a touch screen retina display phone where you could facetime someone, however - it exists none the less, because people who were skilled in that area thought of a way to make it. As I'm not a programmer I wouldn't know where to begin, but where there's a will there's a way and I wouldn't be surprised to see this appear in future FM's to come!

As for what effect it would have - many different examples have been listed above and there's no point me spending time listing them out, scroll up.

[Spart]

If we can model the effect of extra shooting training, why not a strict nutrition regime?

Wenger has said on record that his diet methods are designed to slim players, make them more agile, mentally alert and quicker. Why can't this act in a similar way to training focuses or slight boosts to existing tactical or aerobic attribute improvements?

[MSCCG]

Well, across clubs it seems that these roles are not very well defined and they remain somewhat of a "trade secret". I'm sure they will be included if we know exactly what they do, but the effects of "extra shooting" seems quite a lot more obvious than say "week long special diet". Also, many clubs hire these types of staff on temporary contracts or as part-time consultants and this may not be replicable in game.

I like to imagine that these factors that are being mentioned are factored into the "training facilities" rating that each club has, as diet and "sports science" are surely influenced heavily by the equipment the club has at its disposal.

[davidbowie]

I feel like this is already part of the training facility level.

[Dave80]

Well, across clubs it seems that these roles are not very well defined and they remain somewhat of a "trade secret". I'm sure they will be included if we know exactly what they do, but the effects of "extra shooting" seems quite a lot more obvious than say "week long special diet". Also, many clubs hire these types of staff on temporary contracts or as part-time consultants and this may not be replicable in game.

I like to imagine that these factors that are being mentioned are factored into the "training facilities" rating that each club has, as diet and "sports science" are surely influenced heavily by the equipment the club has at its disposal.

You know, you've just pointed out something that I hadn't even thought of! If you can't afford to have them on a full time basis you can hire these members of staff on a "part-time" or "temporary" basis - so it could be just for pre-season (perhaps at one of the training camps!) Or if one of your players is coming back from a long term injury you could hire someone to work specifically with him (it would basically be a news item like "your assistant would like to know if you wish player x to have a personal "trainer"" (for lack of a better word)).

[Federico]

Ok, this thread is a joke eh? we all had fun, but stop being so serious now, you're scaring me for real.

If you want to play something like that, The Sims is for you. You're exaggerating now. Players do thousands of things in their lives i assume. I don't want to decide for them how many hours to sleep, or how many times they are supposed to have a ****. What a waste of time, you want to decide a diet for your players, accepting this old-based tactic system and a new match engine you don't know how it works either.

I'm shocked.

[Spart]

I feel like this is already part of the training facility level.

I think it lacks clarity and depth though. As a Manager I'd like to be able to give specific areas of my backroom staff and club's methods some serious focus.

Like, as already mentioned, Big Sam at Bolton/Blackburn/West Ham, Wenger at Monaco/Arsenal, Klopp at Dortmund, Lobanovskyi at Dynamo etc. etc.

It's not like at the moment we just sign coaches, is it? We have to balance our wage budgets and choose the right men with the right stats to get coaching skills we want to develop players in the way we want. For example: hiring an excellent but expensive defence coach might cause a club on a budget to bring average fitness coaches or a dodgy attacking coach.

It would be great if that same sort of functional customisation went further and offered more options with sports scientists, nutritionists, data analysts and other narrow specialists and their relevant facilities.

[davidbowie]

Si just wrecked the depth of the training module. I doubt they'll then go and spend time increasing the depth of it by creating extra departments.

[Dave80]

Ok, this thread is a joke eh? we all had fun, but stop being so serious now, you're scaring me for real.

If you want to play something like that, The Sims is for you. You're exaggerating now. Players do thousands of things in their lives i assume. I don't want to decide for them how many hours to sleep, or how many times they are supposed to have a ****. What a waste of time, you want to decide a diet for your players, accepting this old-based tactic system and a new match engine you don't know how it works either.

I'm shocked.

Have you even read any of the posts other than the OP's? Posts in support have all said that it wouldn't be a micromanagement purely a member of staff who would help to boost development or increase fitness. SS/N are common place among all top clubs now-a-days, many people say that football manager is not a game but a "management simulation". If that's the case then this fits right in.

Many other good points in support have already been mentioned, read them all before you start to bash a perfectly good idea.

[Bababui]

If we can model the effect of extra shooting training, why not a strict nutrition regime?

Wenger has said on record that his diet methods are designed to slim players, make them more agile, mentally alert and quicker. Why can't this act in a similar way to training focuses or slight boosts to existing tactical or aerobic attribute improvements?

He can say it but it doesnt mean that it really happens. Amd its utterly crazy and unsupported by science to say that diet (aside from a common balanced diet can help one stay healthy) can improve aerobic ability or intellectual functioning. What next? Boots that boost speed? Amulets that boost strength?

[Bababui]

Have you even read any of the posts other than the OP's? Posts in support have all said that it wouldn't be a micromanagement purely a member of staff who would help to boost development or increase fitness. SS/N are common place among all top clubs now-a-days, many people say that football manager is not a game but a "management simulation". If that's the case then this fits right in.

Many other good points in support have already been mentioned, read them all before you start to bash a perfectly good idea.

Its a perfectly goofy idea because there is no measurable (or codeable) benefit to having these guys in the game. Have injuries gone down in the last decade? And no one needs a specialist to eat properly.

[Dave80]

He can say it but it doesnt mean that it really happens. Amd its utterly crazy and unsupported by science to say that diet (aside from a common balanced diet can help one stay healthy) can improve aerobic ability or intellectual functioning. What next? Boots that boost speed? Amulets that boost strength?

Its a perfectly goofy idea because there is no measurable (or codeable) benefit to having these guys in the game. Have injuries gone down in the last decade? And no one needs a specialist to eat properly.

Why do I keep finding myself repeating things in this thread - it's just going round and round in circles with people not reading/understanding what's being said. It is scientifically proven that certain diets can help improve performance and as for injuries take a look at the quote from an article on the MilanLab, the links included should you wish to read further. (It has already been posted by me but it appears it's been forgotten as it's all the way up in the middle of the thread.)

But alas back to the point, old Milan. Yes they are old, ridiculously old when you think about it but how have they managed to play together for so long? Paolo Maldini is coming up to 40 and has floated the possibility of playing another season. A lot of this has been put down to the Milan Lab. Since its introduction in 2002 the praise showered on this elusive institution has been endless — some have even credited it with giving players 5 extra playing years to their careers. But what is it and are these accolades completely justifiable? Can a glorfied physio room really make the difference to a players career?

In 2000 Milan bought Redondo from Real Madrid for 30 million Euros. At his peak, it was anticipated as an awesome signing of one of the best athletes playing in Europe. In the previous season he had helped Madrid win the Champions League so the excitement of the signing (and obviously the price paid) was huge. Remember Raul’s third goal against Man Utd with the ‘backheel of Old Trafford’ ? He completely bossed Roy Keane and won UEFA 1999-2000 most valuable player. Moving to Milan, his body crumbled and he played 16 games in 4 years – Milan vowed to never spend that much money on a player again.

This was the start of the Milan Lab, a ‘High Tech Scientific Research Centre set up by AC Milan’ focusing on the psychological and physical attributes of the players, with the idea that each player is unique and therefore should follow their own individually created program. Run by a Belgian chiropractor and practitioner of applied kinesiology, the lab aims to reduce injuries by intricate analysis of each player, from the way they jump to the type of shoes and clothes they wear. Every detail makes a difference and according to an interview made in the Financial Times there has been a reduction of traumatic injuries by 90%.

The Milan lab has a huge influence on who they buy and squad selection. Supposedly their data is so detailed that it can even suggest when a player needs to be rested due to a high possibility of injury. And the majority of this information can be created by a simple 8 minute test and software created in association with Microsoft – sounds a little far fetched to me, I wonder how much of this is marketing bull ****? But if you look at the ages of the first team squad, the physio room has surely played a part in keeping this team together (ages as of March 15th 2008):

Dida — 34 Cafu — 37 Maldini — 39

Kaladze — 30 Emerson — 31 Pato — 18

Gattuso- 30 Inzaghi — 35 Seedorf — 31

Gilardino — 25 Nesta – 31 Kalac — 35

Simic — 32 Jankulovski — 31 Favalli — 36

Gourcuff — 21 Pirlo — 28 Kaka — 25

Ambrosini — 30 Bonera — 26 Serginho — 36

Fiori — 38 Digao — 22 Brocchi — 32

Ba- 34 Damian — 18 Paloschi — 18

Oddo — 31 Ronaldo — 31 Average age: 29

Read more at http://soccerlens.com/milan-lab-ac-milan/6781/#q6fOabbX8mWWsgEK.99

Right underneath my post are other examples of how other top clubs have utilized sports science to benefit their teams, again - to make it easier for you Bababui I'll post that below so you don't have to bother scrolling up again, I know how you must find that a pain:

Here's a few more links for those unconvinced.

"How Valeriy Lobanovskyi's appliance of science won hearts and trophies" by Jonathan Wilson in The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/may/12/valeriy-lobanovskyi-dynamo-kyiv

Tim Vickery on how backroom innovation has always been key for Brazil (their methods would have been "cutting edge Sports Science" at the time in relation to what was going on elsewhere in football): http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2010/03/fitness_the_key_for_brazillian.html

Manchester City - the sports science behind the champions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18887653

"How Arsene Wenger changed English football" on Life's A Pitch: http://www.lifesapitch.co.uk/laptv/the-big-question/arsene-wenger-changed-the-face-of-football/

A quote from Mr Wenger himself from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2006/may/14/sport.comment

"Jam rolypoly and custard? It's silly to work hard the whole week and then spoil it by not preparing properly before the game. As a coach, you can influence the diet of your players. I can teach the players what they do wrong without knowing it is wrong."

On how data analysts are revolutionising football: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9471db52-97bb-11e0-9c37-00144feab49a.html#axzz29XfVEqoF

Giggs on yoga: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/mar/27/ryan-giggs-yoga-manchester-united

"Michel Bruyninckx leads way in developing mental capacity" from Sports Illustrated: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/soccer/12/17/blizzard.sinnott.mental/index.html

At no point have we said we want "complete control" in micromanaging things like this, it would purely be the hiring of staff, like a physio, then let them get on with it. You don't tell the physio how to treat injuries do you? Different SS/N would have different approaches and effect levels just like coaches with 5 star training attributes have on progression compared to 3 star.

Lastly, if it is completely "unsupported" then why are all of the top clubs using them? Why did Milan set up an entire facility dedicated towards this? I'd read up on something in the future before you start to wade into the deep end of a conversation you clearly have no clue about.

[Spart]

Its a perfectly goofy idea because there is no measurable (or codeable) benefit to having these guys in the game. Have injuries gone down in the last decade? And no one needs a specialist to eat properly.

Yawn... the following peer-reviewed scientific papers disagree with you. Injuries don't have to go down, but recovery time, stamina, concentration levels, reflexes and explosiveness of movement can all improve, just to name a few areas science and nutrition can help footballers.

On nutrition and endurance in sport: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/26/9/1011.long

Covering the growth and effects of sports science and nutrition: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0264041031000102105

On how modern scientific and nutritional approaches help Muslim players perform through Ramadan: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410802614944

Heck, even FIFA have a guide on nutrition: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/medical/51/55/15/nutritionbooklet_neue2010.pdf

Biomechanics and how they can inform training, conditioning: http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/6/324.short

Students at Greenwich University are being taught how to use 3D modelling and kinetic studies to help improve footballers: http://www2.gre.ac.uk/study/courses/ug/sps/c600/courses?s=87084&c=ANAT1005

Blog edited by Mayur Ranchordas, nutritionist for Bolton Wanderers and lecturer at Sheffield Hallam University: http://nutrition4performance.blogspot.co.uk/

Mayur's work with Doncaster Rovers - showing that non-elite clubs are getting in on the act too: http://www.drfcyouth.co.uk/downloads/performance_nutrition_advice_for_matches.pdf

Presentation by academic from Mike Bewley, South Georgia University: http://web.wm.edu/speedstrength/footballnutrition.pdf?svr=www

...and that was just after a quick Google Scholar search. There are plenty more studies out there, and more importantly and relevant to us, football clubs are pumping resources into these areas in order to gain a competitive edge over the competition.

[MSCCG]

^^^ And many also to do with improving psychological health through scientific methods.

Though we often treat football as magical and transcending logic, lets not be too hasty to disregard science.

However, I still think these should be included in training facilities or be something like that (building up by the board rather than hiring specific staff members) because while managers should be expected to appreciate these new technologies and pursue them, they are probably not expected to know the exact science of what is going on. These specialists will also need to be given a completely unique skill set in the game, which would be too specific and unnecessary.

[Bababui]

And you dont need a staff member to benefit from this research. Again, it would be almost impassible to accurately code and would make the game even easier for human players. And all this magical research hasnt helped top level players like Robben or Michael Owen, has it? As said above, clubs are looking for a competitive advantage and have loads of money to spend. It doesnt mean that they are getting one. Where is the 2012 version of Milan? If it was so effective, then why hasnt it been copied?

[Spart]

And you dont need a staff member to benefit from this research. Again, it would be almost impassible to accurately code and would make the game even easier for human players. And all this magical research hasnt helped top level players like Robben or Michael Owen, has it? As said above, clubs are looking for a competitive advantage and have loads of money to spend. It doesnt mean that they are getting one. Where is the 2012 version of Milan? If it was so effective, then why hasnt it been copied?

In Milan's case because they're incredibly guarded and secretive over their methods. Considering the amount of similar but not-exact copy facilities that can be found at clubs such as Manchester United and City though people are certainly trying to replicate their own "Milan Labs".

Wenger's methods were copied by his competitors after he arrived in England to take advantage of the knowledge gaps and competitive inefficiencies however. It could also be argued that the assimilation of his practices and idea had a massive influence over the Premier League's potency in Europe through the 00's.

What I'd like to see, if not specialist staff members, would be more depth and customisation in the board funding - and by depth I don't mean sliders, toggles or fiddly micro-management. I want choices and more manager variety. Imagine being able to walk into a new club and utterly reshape its back room methods like Bielsa, Wenger, Lobinovsyki and the like. It would be fantastic for FM, something setting tactics and philosophy just can't fully convey.

[Spart]

Interesting piece by Gary Neville on the Milan Lab and United: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2106465/Gary-Neville-Ryan-Giggs-Paul-Scholes-way-age.html

"Five years ago at Manchester United, we were given a presentation about the famous Milan lab at AC Milan, where, with good sports science and healthier lifestyles, they have kept players well into their Thirties. They showed us the likes of Alessandro Costacurta, who was 40 at the time, Cafu, who was 36, Serginho, 35, and Paolo Maldini, 38, all of whom were still playing. United’s vision was to keep outfield players playing into their late Thirties, almost unheard of 20 years ago."

Looking Giggs and Scholes now, Fergie has at least tried to imitate the effects of the Milan Lab at Carrington. Being able to flex our budget (if we have it) in FM to keep our old players useful would be one immediate feature of any enhanced sports science/nutrition module, whatever its interfaces turned out to be - staff, board requests, whatever.