Are defensive midfielders important enough in FM?

[bleventozturk]

Quote: A not so good DMC on the other hand can really cripple your team, still he gets about the same ratings as a good one and it's only by looking at their stats that you see the real difference.

That's exactly the problem I'm talking about here. The rating system over-rates goals and assists and underrates stats like tackles, interceptions, a good % of completed passes, etc. Like I sais my DMC is my best player, he is leading the league in tackles and pass completion, however his rating is even lower than my 17-18 year old backup fullbacks.

[Stomalomalus]

I think you're wrong about this. The very best teams use deep-lying playmakers and those who can't find one use a Makelele type.

All top teams use at least one deep-lying midfielder these days. For Spain and Barcelona it is Busquets, and Germany use both Khadeira and Sweinstieger in deep roles.

Busquets is not a defensive midfielder, though, and he pushes high up the pitch. He positions himself well to win the ball, and then looks for the pass to move the team forward.

Neither Schweinsteiger nor Khedira are deep in the German midfield. They push high up in order to win the ball quickly. As with Spain, they get most of their ball through intercepts not tackling, and then look to move forward - Schweinsteiger with the pass, and Khedira by striding forward.

Manchester United do not play with a DM, yet they are one of the most successful teams in recent footballing history. SAF has said that he only has two defenders, they have to have excellent positioning and anticipation as if the ball gets through the midfield, then they are on their own.

The DLP's are not playing so deep, though, they tend to be stepped a bit further up the pitch nowadays. The role of the player like Makelele is not really used anymore. The player has to be able to build attacks too, so there is rarely the same sheild infront of the defence.

[Stomalomalus]

Quote: A not so good DMC on the other hand can really cripple your team, still he gets about the same ratings as a good one and it's only by looking at their stats that you see the real difference.

That's exactly the problem I'm talking about here. The rating system over-rates goals and assists and underrates stats like tackles, interceptions, a good % of completed passes, etc. Like I sais my DMC is my best player, he is leading the league in tackles and pass completion, however his rating is even lower than my 17-18 year old backup fullbacks.

But why does this matter?

[isuckatfm]

But why does this matter?

- ratings are how a player judges your interaction about form which link to 'relationships'

- ratings are tied to team talks which takes from the immersion when your defensive midfielder has a stormer but gets a 7ish

- both of the above are the tools used for affecting player morale within the game

- ratings are tied to the valuation of a player which can mean a key component of your side goes for peanuts when a chairman steps in

- ratings are tied to what the fans think of a player which in turn links in to confidence (probably not majorly weighted in terms of the sack or not sack decision, but still)

[bleventozturk]

Everything that isuckatfm said, plus ratings also affect a players' value. When a player starts getting higher ratings, his value (and reputation also, but I'm not sure on that) increases too. Ratings are used at many points in the game while evaluating a players' performance.

[crouchaldinho]

Is there really a problem with DM ratings? I haven't noticed it to be honest.

Is it just with certain roles? Or is it anyone in the position?

[bleventozturk]

In my experience, unless your DM is your playmaker he will mostly average around 6.8-7.0, and I'm talking about the best DM's here.

Yesterday out of curiosity I looked at every team in my game and noticed that the only time the DMs get better ratings is when you don't have MC's playing in front of them, like in a 4-4-2 diamond tactic with 1 DMC and 1 AMC, or like in a 4-2-3-1 with 2 DMC's and 1 AMC. The reason is: When you have MC's in front of your DMC, when DMC will get the ball he will always have an MC right in front of him available for a safe short pass. That means your DMC will almost never have a chance to make a critical pass to your forwards, and we all know by now that without assists or goals a midfielders can never get a rating above 7.0-7.1. MY star DMC has solid statistics in every match and that gives him continuous ratings of 6.7-7.0. Always. Kind of frustrating. Yesterday I tried to tweak my DMC's sliders in hope of helping his ratings. For that I increased his passing slider a few notches so that he won't always pass the ball to the MC's right in front of him. That didn't really help. He still got his 6.8-6.9, and my MC's became less effective (because they received the ball less) and their ratings dropped actually.

[bleventozturk]

Is there really a problem with DM ratings? I haven't noticed it to be honest.

Is it just with certain roles? Or is it anyone in the position?

How do you play your DMC? DO you have MC's in front of him?

[Bosson]

Probably depends on the role really. I'm playing without a DM at the moment, the most defensive minded player outside of the back 5 is my CM DLP, either an Icelandic regen, Stevie Defour or Lucas in that order; and they all pretty much do the job of a DM when defending, breaking up play as all are decent/good in the tackle but contribute significantly when starting counters or when pinning the oppo down inside their final third. Also having a man like that in a slightly more advanced position means that is they have decent anticipation, tackling and marking they can break down an oppo counter before it even begins. The Icelandic chap was around the 7.6 mark last season I think average ratings wise, even though he only scored two, and Defour does well there given a run in the team.

[edgar555]

My best player has sat in midfield for me for 7 seasons with an 88% pass success rate, about a 6.7 rating, 1 goal, 3 assists and no MOTM a season. I swear, my team falls apart without him.

Exactly this

I couldn't care less about the rating he gets, as long as he's doing the job I ask of him. He's whats known as an unsung hero, exactly as many DM's IRL are.

Yes I've read the post by isuckatfm and I really couldn't care less about the 'relationship' thing and whatever else ratings are 'supposed' to affect, me and my DM get along just fine thanks.

[crouchaldinho]

How do you play your DMC? DO you have MC's in front of him?

Mostly 4-2-3-1 with DM, DM and AMC in front.

My DLP has got good ratings. I haven't paid a lot of attention to it otherwise though.

[Ferrari312]

I tend just to play 4-4-2, with both an AMC and DM but both playing in centre midfield, the AMC with support duties and the DM with defensive duties. May sound boring but it just... well, works (for my teams anyway). I seem to have some sort of strange subconscious aversion to players who are pure "MC"s however, I always like to pair an AMC and a DM together, where possible.

DISCLAIMER - I'll freely admit I give bugger-all thought to tactics, I just select 4-4-2, adjust a few options in the new wizard/builder thing that was introduced for FM10 (brilliant addition BTW!) depending on the opposition and what my ass man says, and then focus my energies on building a squad and keeping it happy.

[Ely-matty]

i play with DM because he's between defenders and midfielders.

[bleventozturk]

Ok, after trying so many different things finally I found a way around this. The problem was, as y'all know, the DMC's not being involved in the game when you have the ball closer to the opponents penalty box. Even if you have them on 'support' role they still sit back right in front of the defenders. This way they keep getting ratings around 6.6-7.0. Just to have them involved more (without setting them as 'deep lying playmakers'), I pushed my defensive line up a few notches, and also told them to run from deep often. This allows them to step up more when I have the possession and play like MC's. That way they started getting more critical passes and assists and some odd goals which increased their average ratings, in the mean time still doing their job as DMC's when the opponent has the ball.

There were however 2 drawbacks.

1) They started covering more distance during 90 minutes which makes them get tired quicker. But this is ok because previously they were never getting tired (thanks to some serious lack of getting involved in the attacks), now they are getting tired as much as my MC's does, so that's ok. Previously their ratings would drop from 100% to 80% in 90 minutes (just like the CB's), now they drop to 70%, just like my MC's.

2) A more serious drawback was that unfortunately the only way to push up the DMC's is to push-up the whole defense with them. This resulted in my defence getting fallen apart against the opponents with quick forwards and wingers. To overcome this I decreased the 'mentality' of my CB's by 2-3 notches.

This whole experiment proved one more time that the match engine DEFINITELY NEEDS A POSITION SLIDER other than the mentality slider, so that I can push up my DMC's without pushing up my CB's and FB's.

[reo hustler]

A slight tweak to the ratings system would be fair . . .

Check out Sandro in the Champions League Final vs Juventus . . .

He was brilliant!

However, he only received 8+ ratings when he earned a goal or an assist. Look at his statistics against Benfica too. Also, I do not mind yellow cards for my defensive midfielders. Obviously, it is subjective (I wasn't happy versus Arsenal). Anyway, he had 9 interceptions, 10 tackles tried and won, and only lost one header versus Juventus. We won 1 nil. He deserved better . . .

[Matt_no_7]

It depends how you use them. In my leeds save of FM10 i always put an MC with a DM, let one create and the other just be, as i call it, the attack dog. Hunting down opposing mids, winning the ball and playing it off. Worked well for me.

[bleventozturk]

A slight tweak to the ratings system would be fair . . .

Check out Sandro in the Champions League Final vs Juventus . . .

He was brilliant!

However, he only received 8+ ratings when he earned a goal or an assist. Look at his statistics against Benfica too (subbed early due to yellow). Also, I do not mind yellow cards for my defensive midfielders. Obviously, it is subjective (I wasn't happy versus Arsenal). Anyway, he had 9 interceptions, 10 tackles tried and won, and only lost one header versus Juventus. We won 1 nil. He deserved better . . .

Look at the Guimares game for example. He had a very good game there (5 tackles won, 8 headers won, 7 interceptions), but only got a 6.8. To be fair that performance should be evaluated as 7.1-7.3 in my opinion. A slight tweak is definitely necessary, a tweak that will bring out the importance of tackles and interceptions for a DMC.

[Toadi]

I love the idea of a DM, as it allows me to play with attacking full backs, as opposed to being forced to leave them on support or defend, however, in the same breath, it's such an important position that there aren't many that are good enough to play at whatever level you're at. And it gets worse the lower down the leagues you get.

Then of course you can add in the issue that BSN/S up to championship really requires a strong aggressive DM, whereas in the premiership, a pacy DM is much more effective, as the physical aspect fades away in the top flight to be replaced by some absolutely BEASTY speedy players. Even the target men in the top flight (as rare as they are) are pacy buggers.

If it was up to me, I'd always play someone in that holding DM role. But, it's just not always viable for the club I'm at, be it due to transfer cost, wage cost, or simply that there aren't any good enough! (I also find it very difficult to raise a young DM, as at a young age they make too many mistakes in such a pivotal role, and you become much more susceptible to counters)

I feel the Sweeper role is also very underutilised, and I've NEVER seen anybody use a tactic with the full backs playing in line with the sweeper (the slot is there on the tactics screen... but why? any suggestions?)