A different approach: managing pushovers

[RBKalle]

Ok.

I couldn't help but notice most tactics are built ON and FOR Big Clubs, and even the tactics which tend to be a bit more defensive still require a lot of talented players to work well.

Then there's the "lower league" tactic, which, while being less fancy and not needing that much quality, STILL relies on the logic assumption your team is adequate to pull it off against equal or slightly better opposition.

Either way the creator of the tactic will have WINNING the game as his main goal, so the tactic will obviously push on the offense, throwing caution to the wind at times, assuming the defense line will be able to withstand the opponents.

What is missing though (or what I haven't been able to find yet) is:

how do you play when your side is widely inferior?

And I'm not speaking of "West Ham at Stamford Bridge" inferior, more on the tune of "Cork City against Aston Villa in Europa League qualifiers" or Malta v Germany.

Basically it's a situation where you KNOW you don't stand a chance, but you'd still want not to go home with a double-digit loss or something like that. Or, if everything works just fine and it's your lucky day, you can even steal a draw...

I'm currently managing the Faroese national team, and I've tried with some other people's tactics [goalstorm etc] and also with some variations of the 4-1-3-2 and 4-1-2-1-2 I used on another save with mediocre teams...

But nothing really works... Most tactics are too offensive and while I can now manage to score one or two goals, it leaves the defense open to every kind of football abuse...

So there's little point in scoring 1 when you let 6 or 7 in.

On the other hand a defensive tactic won't benefit much, as the players don't have the skills and the stamina to play 90 minutes of "Mourinho football" trying to hold on to a clean sheet while striking on the counter-attack.

It'd end like a cat-and-mouse chase, where the odds of conceding a lot are high, especially in the closing stages of the match...

So I ask to all the tactical gurus around here: how do you play with a consistently weak side against much better competition?

* Offensive play will expose the defense even more, with disastrous outcomes

* Defensive play will alienate the already slim chances of scoring, while not being a guarantee of more defensive solidity

* Not enough quality to play possession football

* Long ball=more chances for the opponents to build up play and score.

To me it's a catch-22 situation...

[Jenko_EFC]

You may not be able to play Mourinho-esque style football but just like any match in my opinion, you sure can learn from him! This was counter-attacking at it's best last night and to take lessons from some matches is invaluable in Football Manager! When playing against a much superior side, do what he did last night although Inter are probably better the same requirements are needed for defensive football. He pinpointed their key player - Robben. He got the opposing fullback defensive and gave him cover in the form of Cambiasso/Zanetti. As he beat the fullback Bayern's deep-lying forward Muller dropped deep leaving Samuel on his won to sweep up Robben.

His main tactical trick was Eto'o and Pandev who came out surprisingly as defensive wingers instead of the presumable inside forwards and ''took one for the team''. He left a trequarista up with a deadly poacher/advanced forward.

What can we take from this? Well, firstly we choose their main threat, give him a defensive man-marker and 2 coverers. Go man to man with all their team except for defenders and play 1 up top with a creative influence. Defensive wingers will provide cover on the wings and overrun the midfield. Don't close down and let them have possession. That's what Mourinho did and what I'd translate into FM terms. For your situation I'd do the same but even more defensive and play with the playmaker in CM to help distribute the ball. I appreciate you can't play like Inter with Accrington Stanley but you sure can take tips off them.

[hbtfdbs]

Yea playing counter/defensive/mourinho style is whats best for underdogs ingame imo, but theres always an option to 'kick them off the park'.

[RBKalle]

I see, but is counter/defensive style feasible when your BEST player wouldn't even be a backup for the opponents' reserve team?

As I've specifically stated, we're talking about total and utter INFERIORITY, not about slight underdogs.

[Jenko_EFC]

I see, but is counter/defensive style feasible when your BEST player wouldn't even be a backup for the opponents' reserve team?

As I've specifically stated, we're talking about total and utter INFERIORITY, not about slight underdogs.

Sure, as I say always maintain an attacking threat no matter what, I honestly couldn't care if I was Accrington vs Barcelona! I was pointing out what Mourinho did which worked to perfection by having a playmaker and an advanced forward/poacher and the rest defending. Obviously you will lose regardless you aren't asking for a tactic that'd beat Barca with Accrington surely ? I couldn't care less if their worst player would score 500 in my league to be honest. Match man to man and ensure you have a few covers nearby. Allow them possession by stand-off opponents and don't lose shape. 99% of the time you're going to lose anyway but maintain a possible goalscorer as you never know...

[hbtfdbs]

It's especially feasible when your best player wouldnt get into their reserves, this way youll frustrate them force them to long shots and hopefully score on the counter, pick a defensive formation rigid man marking, play defensive strategy. for me what worked really well is 4222 2 dmcs, 1 on support the other defend and 2 cms both on attack might help with one on support though for massive underdogs, by having 2 dms it puts pressure on possible long shots. also tone down long shots for your team, i had long shot set to sometimes on just the strikers and the support dm, which makes the team try to create mainly cccs, with this setup ive had a number of games where opposition:30 shots mostly from long range, with my 1 shot 1ccc and 1 goal, in particular had a great cup run beating 2 teams in leagues above me.

[Zico10]

The best form of defense is attack. Be bold, be brave and don't hesitate.

[SFraser]

The best form of defense is attack. Be bold, be brave and don't hesitate.

Well no, not when you are facing a side that is going to thrive on the spaces you leave and gut your players individually.

What is true is that the more the opponent is forced to deal with your attacking threat, the less time and players they can commit to attacking you, so an effective and efficient attack is an excellent defense as it causes the opponent problems and makes them worry about you. Simply commiting players and your team to an attacking style of play is suicide if you are facing a superior team.

As the "inferior" side you need to look for efficient use of your players. Make sure you attack is more effectively constructed than their defence, and your defence is more effectively constructed than their attack. This will give you an advantage in terms of numbers and efficiency/effectiveness over the opponents superior players.

Counter-attacking football is more than simply lobbing a ball to the targetman and bombing forward your midfield. The best counter-attacking football uses minimum numbers to attack the opponent at their area of maximum weakness with pace that prevents the opponent from easilly adjusting and getting numbers back to cover. It also uses the appearance of threat or the risk of attack to create gaps and spaces for you to exploit, or to cause the opponent to play a less attacking game in certain areas.

Take for example the Inter v Bayern match. Eto'o was a threat to Bayerns weak Leftback and Ribery was missing, so Bayerns attacks down that flank were limited and the Centreback refused to step into midfield like he usually does, in order to be deep to cover the Leftback if he got exposed. Likewise Robben was unlikely to track back, so Inter attacked with numbers down the Bayern right flank. Eto'o hardly got a kick, but his presence as a threat effectively removed any attack Bayern had from that side of the pitch and from the CB stepping forward, while Robben attacked like crazy but left Lahm exposed in defence and Mourinho exploited that space mercilessly with Sjneider playing very close to Pandev when counter-attacking.

I thought that the use and performance of Sjneider was the defining aspect of the match. Placed in precisely the right position to exploit Robben's lack of cover it was 3 Inter players on the Bayern right facing a back four where one of the Centrebacks could not afford to come across and let Eto'o attack the leftback free. That simple usage of numbers in key areas and threat from another part of the pitch left Bayerns defence in a real mess whenever Inter counter-attacked, and they counter-attacked with pace and precision every time.

While Bayern had 70% possession and played much of the game in Inters half, Inter were by far the superior attacking side. It could have been 3-4 nil to Inter fairly easilly if not for a couple of quality saves and a few poorly struck shots, all while conceding 70% possession to the opponent.

That game reminded me of the way Manchester United took apart Arsenal at the Emirates in the Champions League last season (the season before the one just finished). Arsenal played their pretty football inside Uniteds half but couldn't find many ways through, then their defence got absolutely slaughtered on the counter. With ironicly another weak left back being exploited in that match much like Inter v Bayern. The game and the tie was dead and buried inside the hour, then Fletcher got sent off.

So even superior sides will refuse to attack in numbers in competitions like the European Cup, and will instead counter-attack to perfection. Attacking football is great to watch, but it has a time and a place. Efficient counter-attacking is simply a much more stable, secure and ruthless way of playing.

[TerrierBhoy7]

How would you replicate this in-game though? Again taking the final, and if I was Mourinho, how would I say to Wesley to stick close to Pandev and also how would I tell Cambiasso or Zanetti to cover down the left flank against Robben? Equally if I was Bayern and I wanted to tell my CB to cover for my weak LB?

This is exactly how I would play on Fifa where you can easily set such things but on FM it appears harder when really it should be easier??

[Jenko_EFC]

How would you replicate this in-game though? Again taking the final, and if I was Mourinho, how would I say to Wesley to stick close to Pandev and also how would I tell Cambiasso or Zanetti to cover down the left flank against Robben? Equally if I was Bayern and I wanted to tell my CB to cover for my weak LB?

This is exactly how I would play on Fifa where you can easily set such things but on FM it appears harder when really it should be easier??

Stick him one place to the left I'd imagine. Man-mark Robben with Zanetti/Cambiasso. Hug touchline for LCB?

[mdbussen]

very rigid

counter attacking or defensive mentality

easy tackling to keep your shape

less creative freedom

try to score on the break

[Zico10]

Well no, not when you are facing a side that is going to thrive on the spaces you leave and gut your players individually.

Well yes, and statistics are there for all to see. And "leave space" doesn't mean you are going away in holiday. Football is dynamic and this means there are other players moving/cover. I won the Premier League and Primera Liga first season with Wolves and Getafe playing attack/fluid. Top scorers and best defense, playing with 3 at the back. And atm I'm playing with 2 at the back and very confortable.

So even superior sides will refuse to attack in numbers in competitions like the European Cup, and will instead counter-attack to perfection. Attacking football is great to watch, but it has a time and a place. Efficient counter-attacking is simply a much more stable, secure and ruthless way of playing.

Again, check how many teams have won playing attacking v counter-attack.

Amazing the number of analysis and conclusions after knowing the final score, and people trying to sell it as a great final.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing to have my friend...

There's a difference between playing defensively and incapacity to play attacking football.

Attacking approach and methodology demands a different mindset and hardwork. Because you are building...

That's why the Brazilian World Cup winning team of 1994 in USA, was met with stones upon arrival at Rio de Janeiro.

Unfortunately people jump on this Mourinho bandwagon, when is easily forgot, not a lot would be talking about him if the referee in 2004 at Old Trafford 2nd leg v Porto, did not pretend to be blind and disallowed Scholes goal for 2-0.

Or referee Webb blindness who cowardly tuck his balls between his arse scared of being honest if he had given the Maicon handball, when it was 0-0.

Blackpool is going up into PL, yet it was Swansea who should have been disputing the playoff's, if it was not by one of the most callous acts of referee robbery I've seen in a game for a long time denying them a couple of scandalous penaltis.

Then we would be sitting here talking and reading about a different ball game.

Jokers!!!

I'm sick of referees deciding matches on a weekly basis for being dishonest and cowards, and yet people keep coming with brilliant analysis about matches, winners and tactics.

[Falahk]

the stronger your side is, the more defencive you can affor to play

Zico10: one could argue that Getafe is a strong side on fm10, and that it would be a failure to not reach a top 7 placing with the intial squad

[TerrierBhoy7]

Stick him one place to the left I'd imagine. Man-mark Robben with Zanetti/Cambiasso. Hug touchline for LCB?

So if I was using two DM players the left one would automatically move out to their right winger?

I wasn't aware that you could set individual players to man-mark the oppo, how do I do this?

[Jenko_EFC]

So if I was using two DM players the left one would automatically move out to their right winger?

I wasn't aware that you could set individual players to man-mark the oppo, how do I do this?

I was answering in order of the question and when I said move him one place to the left I meant Sneijder.

Go to a players' instruction screen (if using TC press advanced) and where it says zonal/man marking click it open ot the drop-down menu where it says specific and choose the player .

[TerrierBhoy7]

Excellent!

[gunners4eva]

A lot has been said about attacking, which is good as you cannot park the bus/coach/aeroplane for 90 mins. I think possession is what to focus on. If the opponent does not have the ball, they cannot attack. You don't necessarily have to be in attack mode for this to work. Try a 3-3-2-1-1 [3CB, 2 defensive-minded wingbacks] for starters.

[RBKalle]

Well it's all fun and games until someone loses 7-0

While I appreciate the analysis and the tactical talk about Inter, Bayern and even Getafe, I think you're kinda missing the point of my question....

It's the freaking FAROE ISLANDS I'm talking about...

"Offense is the best defense" is something I might try against the next-weakest team of the group, but when I'm facing say France, Italy or even Denmark, I'm bound to get my ass handed to me [even more] if I go for playing toe-to-toe with them.

I've tried a moderately attacking game and I ended up losing 5-2 or 4-1 instead of 3-0, but that worked against "middle of the pack" teams.

Then I tried a 4-2-1-2-1 rigid formation, defensive/counter, pretty much the essence of "parking the tank", and all I managed to get was a nice 0 in Shots on Goal.

Needless to say, France's offensive players were like kids in a candy store, and they tore my defense a couple of new ones, with 35 shots on goal but "only" 6 goals.

Either way, when a team is so ridiculously weaker than the opposition, there's not enough class to make a serious case for attacking play, and the defense is still woeful, no matter how many players you can get behind the ball.

Let's change the original question: how do I lose with dignity while managing pushovers?

P.S. the fans do have the guts of being disappointed or devastated with 5-0 losses to Spain... Press conference needs a new answer option...

"well, our best player plays in Danish lower leagues, what the @#%& do you want from me?"

[SFraser]

Well it's all fun and games until someone loses 7-0

While I appreciate the analysis and the tactical talk about Inter, Bayern and even Getafe, I think you're kinda missing the point of my question....

It's the freaking FAROE ISLANDS I'm talking about...

"Offense is the best defense" is something I might try against the next-weakest team of the group, but when I'm facing say France, Italy or even Denmark, I'm bound to get my ass handed to me [even more] if I go for playing toe-to-toe with them.

I've tried a moderately attacking game and I ended up losing 5-2 or 4-1 instead of 3-0, but that worked against "middle of the pack" teams.

Then I tried a 4-2-1-2-1 rigid formation, defensive/counter, pretty much the essence of "parking the tank", and all I managed to get was a nice 0 in Shots on Goal.

Needless to say, France's offensive players were like kids in a candy store, and they tore my defense a couple of new ones, with 35 shots on goal but "only" 6 goals.

Either way, when a team is so ridiculously weaker than the opposition, there's not enough class to make a serious case for attacking play, and the defense is still woeful, no matter how many players you can get behind the ball.

Let's change the original question: how do I lose with dignity while managing pushovers?

P.S. the fans do have the guts of being disappointed or devastated with 5-0 losses to Spain... Press conference needs a new answer option...

"well, our best player plays in Danish lower leagues, what the @#%& do you want from me?"

You need to defend and attack the opponent in detail rather than simply applying some defensive sounding bunch of philosophies to a defensive looking tactic. As the Faroe Islands, fair enough you might always take a beating, but the key point is to study the opponent and defend against them and not some philosophy or concept.

4-2-1-2-1 is not "the essence of parking the tank" at all, it is the essence of exposing fullbacks and attacking from wide positions. It is the essence of leaving wide positions free of numbers. It is the essence of distracting DM's by overloading fullbacks to create space though the middle for late runs. It is the essence of being over-run in every single area by a mobile and fluid group of players that outnumber you, like Fiorentina against Liverpool.

That particular match is a big lesson to those that think 4-2-1-2-1 Rigid is somehow incredibly defensive. Liverpool setup very similar to 4-2-1-2-1, and were over-run in each Rigid layer by 5 Fiorentina players playing in close order to each other. The striker was over-run by 5 midfielders, the 3 man attacking midfield line was over-run by 5 midfielders, the 2 dms were over-run by 5 midfielders, the back four was over-run by 5 midfielders.

All Fiorentina did was get 5 players of decent quality playing possession football in close proximity to each other, moving forward with small runs and short passes, and they gutted Liverpools 4-2-1-2-1 or 4-2-3-1 formation. It was destroyed. The Rigid, organised layers of Liverpool left each other exposed.

If you want to "park the tank" you start from the absolute basics of the game. Large numbers of players in a tight and congested area of the pitch destroys all hope of actually playing football through that area. This means the box. You defend the box with your life. Everything you do is to defend the box with numbers.

You then choose a lone striker, because without him the opponent can chuck forward the giant defenders, pump balls into the box, and use battering rams to break you down. Without a lone striker there is zero threat from your side, the opponent will push forward, you will get no time or space to recover after each attack, and you have no hope at all of recovering after a fluke goal. Your lone striker will push the defenders back, harrass their distribution from the back, give you a bit more time, a bit more space, and atleast the hope of being able to score.

You then look at the key men in the opponents team. The men that can score goals, the men that create chances, the men that are integral to the construction and execution of good football for the opponent. And you man mark them, you hound them, you destroy them. You refuse them any time or space on the ball, you make their entire game experience a war. You bring the contest to the feet and bodies and space of the key players in the opponents team. Whoever the defender passes to, and whoever the striker or winger receives the ball from, whoever links up the team, you hound and you hassle and you kick and you fight and mark and you mark and you mark. By sacrificing one of your players to man mark the key players in their side, you use up a tenth of your options to destroy 30-50-70 percent of theirs. You destroy their game at source.

You then look for the secondary threats. The players that are dangerous, but you might just get away with leaving slightly free for a few minutes because their main man is constantly man marked. The wingers, the inside forward, the deep lying playmaker. You assign players to man mark then individuals, but the men you assign to man mark are also told to get forward in support of your forward. These players are either man-marking wingers/inside forwards/deep playmakers out of the game or are bombing forward to look for a pass from your lone striker.

You then defend the middle. Two lines packed tight in the centre, forcing every single player away from goal. You need two lines so you can cut off passes and defend runs at the same time. Use one line and all that is required is a good pass to a good run and you are beaten. You use two lines packed right in the middle. One line presenting a wall for passes, another presenting a wall to runners. You do not allow yourself to get pulled out of position, but you present rock solid two lines of defence around the penalty box. Your last line must be more numerous than your first because it is closer to goal and defending more dangerous areas across the pitch, and because it needs numbers to make up for mistakes or the skill of the opponent where it matters most.

A particularly useful tactic in this context of packed defences is to employ the cover/stopper combination. Because you have presented a narrow wall in central midfield defence, there will be limited opportunities for the opponent to play passes to runs through your centre, but should such a pass to such a run occur, then having a stopper immediately meet the pass while the cover player drops deep will provide you with significant layered defensive benefits. The key principle behind the midfield shield is that forward passes are immediately met with ball winning tackles from defenders, snapping into the feet of the player that has entered their zone to receive the ball. If this fails, you require a final, cover/sweeper layer of defence or you are penetrated. This is taking defending down the wire. You should read the following thread, which is thoroughly unfinished but deals with plenty of these issues. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=175397

While the 4-2-1-2-1 formation might seem to you to be the epitome of the "park the tank" tactics, it is only that if and when the 3 advanced players beyond the DM's are specifically man marking the playmaker and two wingers, and joining up on the counter with the forward. Simply punting that formation out without considering these issues is a complete disaster of defence, because there is no defence involved.

The best defence on the planet is relatively flat triangle of players camping the penalty box. Players defending both flanks, players defending the deeper/advanced midfield areas, and everyone else arranged in close layers defending the centre. If you use the "outer edges" of that triangle to man mark key opponent players then you hugely reduce their playing capacity, and likewise give yourself players freed from positional and formation constraints to actively take part in the counter attack.

Do not use a 4-2-1-2-1 formation to defend, actively design it with the principles I have mentioned above. Your defensive, back-to-the-wall formation may regularly look like a 4-2-1-2-1 formation but that depends on the opponent. Design a highly functioning defense and attack, and then give it a name. Do not use a named formation thinking it will make you effective in defence or attack.

[RBKalle]

Thank you, that was a very insightful post!

But I don't quite get the "flat triangles" thing...

Is it

DM

/ \

LB----DC

DM

/ \

DC--RB

[mrdorf]

It's especially feasible when your best player wouldnt get into their reserves, this way youll frustrate them force them to long shots and hopefully score on the counter, pick a defensive formation rigid man marking, play defensive strategy. for me what worked really well is 4222 2 dmcs, 1 on support the other defend and 2 cms both on attack might help with one on support though for massive underdogs, by having 2 dms it puts pressure on possible long shots. also tone down long shots for your team, i had long shot set to sometimes on just the strikers and the support dm, which makes the team try to create mainly cccs, with this setup ive had a number of games where opposition:30 shots mostly from long range, with my 1 shot 1ccc and 1 goal, in particular had a great cup run beating 2 teams in leagues above me.

That's not good news the amount of times I've been beaten by half decent players from 30 yds:eek:

[hbtfdbs]

True, but thats why my formation was 4222 2 DMCs harrasses the players in good shooting positions.

[mrdorf]

True, but thats why my formation was 4222 2 DMCs harrasses the players in good shooting positions.

I wouldn't mind but if I don't get beaten with a simple ball through the middle of my defenders then the oppo just beat me with constant shots from 30 yards out. It's annoying when it happens time and time again.