The usual stuff

[Dinaldo]

My proof that reloading is not cheating in this case is simple: There has been an anomalous, paranormal, surreal incident that does not happen in football and does not have any logical explanation. Thus, the save is unreal, unreasonable, ficticious.

How surprising that a game is ficticious:rolleyes:

Earlier this season, in real life, Abou Diaby scored a silly own goal against Man U. All alone, and he headed it in. Silly things happen. Get over it!

And as people have said already, a computer can't cheat you. You need to make a decision in your heart/head to cheat, and the AI has neither:thdn:

[tak]

Is there any reasonable argument against making a save more real by deleting anomalies with the use of reload?

[Vic Taylor]

Is there any reasonable argument against making a save more real by deleting anomalies with the use of reload?

...Read the thread.

[tak]

I read the thread and found zero arguments against reloads when paranormal events occur. However I found arguments against reloads in general. Let us have a look:

"It's a clear case that you are cheating, since you reloaded and played the game again."

"You are cheating because you are changing the way the game is played."

"For example, reloading the game, because you have lost or think that the AI "cheated" you, is cheating imo."

"Having previous knowledge through no fault of your own isn't even "soft" cheating, as you have no control over it. Reloading is something you can control."

"Reloading is clearly cheating and even those that do it would probably recognise it as such."

Most of them reason that reloading is cheating because it is. One argues that it is cheating because the way the game is played is changed. What is the way the game is played? Could someone show me the relevant Bible?

I find it absurd that when a bug occurs, for example, you are supposed to take it on the chin or something similar. Regarding the specific example of this thread, it is also absurd that a player running away is considered to be similar to a player scoring an own goal in an attempt to clear the ball.

In general, arguments against reloading for correction purposes are weak. Slightly stronger are arguments against reloading because of bad results.

[Vic Taylor]

Reloading is cheating because you are quiting the game because of something bad that has happened, and reloading it to a point where either the bad thing won't happen, or you have enough knowledge to prevent it from happening. This is changing the way the game opperates to your advantage, which is the definition of cheating in this context.

Happy?

[eldeniro]

Reload if you want mate. Just don't expect anybody to take your achievements seriously. But as long as you get the relevant enjoyment from the game you paid for, that's the important thing, right?

[tak]

I am happy, thank you Vic. Two questions:

- Is knowing that one of your players is extremely adept to injuries and quickly offloading him, cheating? (falls into the category "or you have enough knowledge to prevent it from happening")?

- Does "something bad that has happened" include bugs?

[Vic Taylor]

I am happy, thank you Vic. Two questions:

- Is knowing that one of your players is extremely adept to injuries and quickly offloading him, cheating? (falls into the category "or you have enough knowledge to prevent it from happening")?

If it is rl knowledge, then no, as you can't effect what you know about rl football.

If you have reloaded, then yes, as you cheated in the first place.

Covering the point you'll probably come back with, if the game crashed and you go back a month, then what you do is up to your ethics.

- Does "something bad that has happened" include bugs?

Bugs are part and parcel of the game. Sure, we all wish we could have a perfect game, but if a bug effects our game in any way, that effect will be up to the specific gamer to define, until posted in a public place, where his/her definition will come under scrutiny. What you have presented in this thread is not a bug, it is a user-changed variable problem.

[craigcwwe]

Reloading is cheating because you are quiting the game because of something bad that has happened, and reloading it to a point where either the bad thing won't happen, or you have enough knowledge to prevent it from happening. This is changing the way the game opperates to your advantage, which is the definition of cheating in this context.

Happy?

Spot on there Vic

[Vic Taylor]

Spot on there Vic

Thanks, mate.

[turn it in]

The problem is though (and excuse me for butting in but this argument is well funny) that if this is " a bug" it's gonna happen again and again so you'll be continuously reloading... forever. Surely there comes a point where you just think... well **** happens or I'll play a different game. What's amusing is that you seem, Tak, to think that the game has a personal vendetta against you and in that way madness lies.

PS the game always hates you...

[craigcwwe]

The problem is though (and excuse me for butting in but this argument is well funny) that if this is " a bug" it's gonna happen again and again so you'll be continuously reloading... forever. Surely there comes a point where you just think... well **** happens or I'll play a different game. What's amusing is that you seem, Tak, to think that the game has a personal vendetta against you and in that way madness lies.

PS the game always hates you...

In his case then he needs to seek professional help and come off of the game for an extended amount of time.

And he needs to realise that no game is ever going to be perfect.

[Vic Taylor]

In his case then he needs to seek professional help and come off of the game for an extended amount of time.

And he needs to realise that no game is ever going to be perfect.

I believe a thread was posted a while back in the OTF about a gamer's addiction group. Maybe you need that, tak?

[craigcwwe]

I believe a thread was posted a while back in the OTF about a gamer's addiction group. Maybe you need that, tak?

He certainly does need to join that group , no offence.

[eldeniro]

Everytime Vic gets going I'm gonna make it my mission to say

"THE CHAMP IS HERE"

[Vic Taylor]

Everytime Vic gets going I'm gonna make it my mission to say

"THE CHAMP IS HERE"

*facepalm* :D

Wait... who does that make tak?

[craigcwwe]

Everytime Vic gets going I'm gonna make it my mission to say

"THE CHAMP IS HERE"

lol, that is great.

But i think that you will be saying that a fair few times at this rate.

[Vic Taylor]

lol, that is great.

But i think that you will be saying that a fair few times at this rate.

Unless I break an arm on that rock wall.

[tak]

I don't think the game has a vendetta against me, and a bug is not happening again and again.

Going back to Vic's argument, I agree that if you know something from RL it is not cheating if you use this prior knowledge. How about if you know something from previous saves? Is this cheating or not? Because it is exactly the same as reloading to use something that you learned during the game.

If a bug and its effect is widely agreed upon can we reload?

Finally: do you have a proof that the runaway player is not a bug?

[eldeniro]

*facepalm* :D

Wait... who does that make tak?

Who cares? Cena always wins, right?

[StevoRobbo]

Look, bugs happen. That cant be avoided. Just like IRL, like bad ref/linesman decisions, injuries etc, they always even themselves out over a season (pretty much). Im sure if you scrutinised the AI team as much as you do your own then you will se that things things work for you aswell as against you. Ok this situation might not happen for the AI to level it out on your part but im sure somewhere down the line they will do something else that is unquestionable in your favour.

Just take it on the chin and move on with your game. Im sure you have already reloaded it and played the game again and got a match that you are happy with wether you won or lost so you have achieved what you wanted to. A fair game.

[craigcwwe]

I don't think the game has a vendetta against me, and a bug is not happening again and again.

Going back to Vic's argument, I agree that if you know something from RL it is not cheating if you use this prior knowledge. How about if you know something from previous saves? Is this cheating or not? Because it is exactly the same as reloading to use something that you learned during the game.

If a bug and its effect is widely agreed upon can we reload?

Finally: do you have a proof that the runaway player is not a bug?

If you use prior knowledge of the game then that is not cheating.

But if you cheat by using the corner exploit then clearly you are cheating as you are exploiting a known bug and using it to your advantage.

[Vic Taylor]

I don't think the game has a vendetta against me, and a bug is not happening again and again.

Then what is your argument based on?

Going back to Vic's argument' date=' I agree that if you know something from RL it is not cheating if you use this prior knowledge. How about if you know something from previous saves? Is this cheating or not? Because it is exactly the same as reloading to use something that you learned during the game.[/quote']

I believe I have stated already that having knowledge beyond your control is not cheating. Reloading is.

If a bug and its effect is widely agreed upon can we reload?

No.

Finally: do you have a proof that the runaway player is not a bug?

Do you have proof that it is?

[Vic Taylor]

Who cares? Cena always wins, right?

Yes... sadly.

[tak]

craigcc:

But Vic said: "Reloading is cheating because you are quiting the game because of something bad that has happened, and reloading it to a point where either the bad thing won't happen, or you have enough knowledge to prevent it from happening."

What if you know that a specific player cannot deal well with media pressure (that's a bad thing isn't it?) and you reload to a point that you can prevent this bad thing from happening (starting a new save and sell him as well as other problematic players)

According to Vic, this is cheating

You are saying it isn't. What is your argument?

Edit: Vic is getting extremely dogmatic now lol: "I believe I have stated already that having knowledge beyond your control is not cheating. Reloading is." and "No."

[Vic Taylor]

craigcc:

But Vic said: "Reloading is cheating because you are quiting the game because of something bad that has happened, and reloading it to a point where either the bad thing won't happen, or you have enough knowledge to prevent it from happening."

What if you know that a specific player cannot deal well with media pressure (that's a bad thing isn't it?) and you reload to a point that you can prevent this bad thing from happening (starting a new save and sell him as well as other problematic players)

According to Vic, this is cheating

You are saying it isn't. What is your argument?

Let me say one thing. Starting a new game with extra knowledge is not cheating. To think it is, is just silly.

If you have a player who cannot deal with media pressure, you play half a season, then reload and sell him because of that, that is cheating.

[craigcwwe]

Let me say one thing. Starting a new game with extra knowledge is not cheating. To think it is, is just silly.

If you have a player who cannot deal with media pressure, you play half a season, then reload and sell him because of that, that is cheating.

This sums up my thoughts exactly.

[tak]

Let me say one thing. Starting a new game with extra knowledge is not cheating. To think it is, is just silly.

If you have a player who cannot deal with media pressure, you play half a season, then reload and sell him because of that, that is cheating.

I didn't say that starting a new save is cheating, you implied it. If you use any knowledge at all that was not aquired from rl but from the previous save is, according to your reasoning, cheating.

Furthermore: Why starting a new save is OK but reloading a save back a year, for example, is cheating? What is the difference?

[Vic Taylor]

I didn't say that starting a new save is cheating, you implied it. If you use any knowledge at all that was not aquired from rl but from the previous save is, according to your reasoning, cheating.

I have already explained my point here. I am not repeating myself.

Furthermore: Why starting a new save is OK but reloading a save back a year' date=' for example, is cheating? What is the difference?[/quote']

By reloading, you have more information about that specific game world than you would have had otherwise. A new game means a new game world, with clubs going after different players, etc.

[tak]

I have already explained my point here. I am not repeating myself.

By reloading, you have more information about that specific game world than you would have had otherwise. A new game means a new game world, with clubs going after different players, etc.

The advantages you have when starting a new save (especially after playing for more than 3 years) far exceed the advantages you have by reloading one match.

Reloading one match could lead to a victory. The most you can gain is a trophy (if that match is the final). That's fine. Let us now see the advantages of starting a new save:

- Tactics. We all agree different FM versions require a different tactical approach. It takes some time to learn those specifics in your first save. However, starting a new one means you can use succesful tactics immediately. This gives supreme advantage to the human player and can be easily classified as cheating.

- Transfers. The human player can go ahead and buy Torric. This gives him/her a bone-crushing advantage over AI.

- Hidden attributes. Need I elaborate?

Let us not say more, tha fact is that with every save, the human player carries over a huge amount of knowledge against the poor AI that starts from scratch.

I am not, under any circumstances, suggesting that it is wrong to start a new save. What I am saying though is that it is unfair to condnemn reloading, whilst we are enjoying all the advantages of new saves. I hope you understand that fanaticism is not the answer here.

[Vic Taylor]

As I'm not being fanatical, you're clutching at straws. Reloading is cheating. I, along with several other people, can't actually believe that anyone cannot understand this.

[craigcwwe]

Come on now tak, this is getting ridiculous, ever heard of the saying `if you think your`e cheating then you probably are`?

[Vic Taylor]

Come on now tak, this is getting ridiculous, ever heard of the saying `if you think your`e cheating then you probably are`?

Isn't it 'if you have to ask if you're cheating or not, then you probably are'?

[tak]

As I'm not being fanatical, you're clutching at straws. Reloading is cheating. I, along with several other people, can't actually believe that anyone cannot understand this.

Come on now tak, this is getting ridiculous, ever heard of the saying `if you think your`e cheating then you probably are`?

Lads you continuously fail to offer decent arguments. More or less what you are saying is: "Reloading is cheating because I say so." Vic, fair play, tried to offer a proper definition that unintentionaly included playing a new save. By the way, you have failed to answer why the knowledge transfered from save to save does not constitute cheating.

[edgar555]

As I'm not being fanatical, you're clutching at straws. Reloading is cheating. I, along with several other people, can't actually believe that anyone cannot understand this.

I for one am amazed that you don't get this tak? You reload, you cheat. Simples. Footballers are humans, therefore they are prone to do crazy things. Thats why your man ran off the post. No we can't prove its not a bug, but you can't prove it is unless you post it in the bugs forum. Obviously as you are intelligent and mature I would expect you've already done that though, right?

[Vic Taylor]

Lads you continuously fail to offer decent arguments. More or less what you are saying is: "Reloading is cheating because I say so." Vic, fair play, tried to offer a proper definition that unintentionaly included playing a new save. By the way, you have failed to answer why the knowledge transfered from save to save does not constitute cheating.

No, I haven't. If you bother to read my posts, then you'd know it.

[craigcwwe]

Isn't it 'if you have to ask if you're cheating or not, then you probably are'?

To the best of my knowledge it is what i said.

[Vic Taylor]

I for one am amazed that you don't get this tak? You reload, you cheat. Simples. Footballers are humans, therefore they are prone to do crazy things. Thats why your man ran off the post. No we can't prove its not a bug, but you can't prove it is unless you post it in the bugs forum. Obviously as you are intelligent and mature I would expect you've already done that though, right?

I agree with 90% of that...

[Vic Taylor]

To the best of my knowledge it is what i said.

Now I'm confused!

[craigcwwe]

Lads you continuously fail to offer decent arguments. More or less what you are saying is: "Reloading is cheating because I say so." Vic, fair play, tried to offer a proper definition that unintentionaly included playing a new save. By the way, you have failed to answer why the knowledge transfered from save to save does not constitute cheating.

We have told you that if you reload the game then that is cheating. What is so hard to understand about that?

If you reload, the match results are different ans so on, when you reload different things happen.

Is that good enough for you?

[edgar555]

I agree with 90% of that...

I can't imagine which 2 words you don't agree with

[craigcwwe]

Now I'm confused!

lol me to, i thought (and still do) think that it is what i said, can someone clear this up?

[craigcwwe]

I can't imagine which 2 words you don't agree with

Intelligent and mature, for a guess

Sorry Vic but i had to answer that one:p

[Vic Taylor]

I can't imagine which 2 words you don't agree with

I think it's 'reload' and 'cheat... or is that tak?

lol me to, i thought (and still do) think that it is what i said, can someone clear this up?

You said... Oh, I can't even be bothered.

[Vic Taylor]

Intelligent and mature, for a guess

Sorry Vic but i had to answer that one:p

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[eldeniro]

Word life, this is basic Vicanomics

[craigcwwe]

I think it's 'reload' and 'cheat... or is that tak?

You said... Oh, I can't even be bothered.

Me neither

[craigcwwe]

Word life, this is basic Vicanomics

Lol, this just gets better.

[Vic Taylor]

Word life, this is basic Vicanomics

I dubbed the 'how to make friends and influence people by Vic Taylor' by calling someone an idiot.

[craigcwwe]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You said that you agreed with edgar555 and he said `I can't imagine which 2 words you don't agree with` so i answered the question which he asked you.

Does that make sense?