DLP as MCr or MCl?

[crouchaldinho]

I am writing this post to get some opinions on footedness in the central midfield positions, particularly with a deep-lying playmaker, who I wish to deploy in my midfield.

As it stands, the tactics creator defaults to placing the more creative of the central midfield players (the central midfield 'support' player) in the left slot. I have been wondering if it is better to switch this position based on the footedness of the player and trying to theorise whether or not it might make a deep-lying playmaker more effective.

Let's take the example of a right footed player in the MCr slot. He is slightly more likely to receive the ball into his preferred foot when placed on this side, which is an immediate advantage. When passing the ball down the right flank, for example, he can open up his body and pass easily with the inside of his right foot. However, when passing to the left, which given his position may be where he is often looking to pass, any through-balls are likely to be less effective from the inside of his right foot. Coming forward to shoot at goal, he also has less chance to curl the ball from his right of centre position.

When placed in the MCl slot, the player is less likely to receive the ball into his preferred foot. He does, however, have more chance to play dangerous forward balls to the right by opening up his body and using the inside of his right foot. This is clearly an advantage over placing him in the other slot. When coming forward to shoot at goal from range, he may well have the chance now to curl a shot across the goal.

Another thought is that the AI opposition will use standard tactics creator settings, thus deploying their more creative midfielder on the left. By switching central midfield players, there is the chance that you are sending your least defensive player in the middle of the park head-to-head with their most attacking one.

The match engine does quite accurately represent footedness, especially for wide players who will act quite differently when you put them on the opposite flank to their preferred foot. Naturally, a player who is strong on both feet has an advantage here and can be placed in either position.

My observations in real life football are varied. St. Albans City, for instance, usually deploy their 'number 4' defensive-minded player on the right and their 'number 8' more creative midfielder on the left. Both of them are primarily right footed. I notice the number 8, playing MCl, tends to receive the ball and hold it, before transferring to his right and selecting the preferred pass, sometimes opening up his body to sweep the ball across to the other flank. He is the sort of player who holds on to the ball while looking for a pass anyway, so this doesn't seem to be a hindrance. Last week, when I attended the England v Egypt match, I noticed that the left-footed Barry was deployed on the left side alongside Lampard as MCr in the first-half, and Carrick as MCr in the second-half.

I realise that it is a small detail but it becomes more significant when deploying a 'deep-lying playmaker'. I want to make sure that he is as effective as possible, seeing as the team will be looking to him as the main focal point of all moves, and so I am wondering to myself how to deploy him in the centre.

Any thoughts on this appreciated. How do you tend to deploy your central midfielders? My instinct at the moment is to stick with my DLP in the MCl slot.

[crouchaldinho]

As a quick P.S. to the above, it might also be worth noting that the very best deep-lying playmakers, Andrea Pirlo and Xabi Alonso, are both very strong on both feet. Meanwhile, David Beckham, who was used in the role unsuccessfully for England, has only one very strong foot, and many have hinted towards this limitation as a reason for his 'failure' in this role.

[Tristan_Nieve]

Well, that's a difficult and interesting question, but I don't think there's one correct answer for it.

If the DLP is right-footed I prefer to play him in the right slot, as I think it is a more confortable position to read the game, look for unmarked players, and specally and most important, try through balls. In that position, the player seems more likely to open the ball to space, but less likely to make short passes and dictate tempo. Maybe it's just a matter of taste, of what kind of football do you prefer to play.

In the other hand, a right-footed DLP will probably be more succesfull with his tackles, as well as organizing the game better. But the pass angle for the forward players seems minor, that means through balls are more difficult - and that's what I primarly want my playmaker for, to make succesfull through balls to the forwards.

Also, there are other options: you can play with two DLP swapping position, play a DM playmaker and a CM ball winner, a DM ball winner and a CM playmaker. And I'm sure there are others.

You can take for example the Euro winning Spain, Senna was on the left, and Xavi on the right, whose right-footed, and it wasn't only good for it's passes, also for his long shots -another important point- and when going to the area, taking advantatge to the defenders and, yes, even scoring.

So, all in all, I think I prefer the right footed in the right, and viceversa, but if you want to defend more than attack, maybe it's a good idea to put the right footed on the left.

Just one more thing to end: Iván de la Peña has always been my personal favourite playmaker, and he has always played on the right.

[michelco]

For me it's based on what players I have infront of him and what I want to achieve. Example: my latest save with Valencia, I use a 4-2-3-1 formation with Mata at AML playing as a Inside forward and Pablo at AMR player the role of winger. I put my DLP (Banega) at MCl since I want to maximize the chance of him threading throughballs to Mata. Because Mata's strenght is getting into the box to score he is dependant on a good through ball while Pablo can 'manage' with a simple pass from Central Midfielder (Defense) since he is supposed run with the ball anyway.

[crouchaldinho]

Couple of interesting replies there. Thanks guys.

Just using the new 'analysis' feature and looking back through a few games, I can see that the majority of my DLPs passes are starting from a left of centre-midfield position and heading from left to right. The DLP I am currently using is reasonable on his left foot and very strong on his right, by the way.

If you think about his position and how he is shaping himself to make these passes, it would seem to be less effective than if he was playing right of centre (matching with his preferred foot). Right now, he is having to take time to readjust and open his body up to play the ball to the right, while if he was left footed, he would surely take less time to pick a pass.

It now seems to me that perhaps the best thing to do is to match it up with footedness, and to have the playmaker playing to the side of his preferred foot.

Any more thoughts and experiences welcomed.

[isuckatfm]

I wondered about this myself and the biggest factor I came up with was time and space re how he gets pressed. In other words if has time to 'turn' opposite to his natural footedness desired area (e.g. a right footer towards the right) then he will play it angled towards the left or spray it out to the left winger. It's when he has someone getting close that it is more likely his footedness will kick in in terms of first touch and passing choice. Composure as far as I am aware will have a direct impact here.

Not 100% of course and may be coincidental, but that was definitely one of the defining factors when I looked at this in a bit of detail.

[crouchaldinho]

isuckatfm - what you say makes a lot of sense and was basically what I was thinking. Ultimately, a great DLP is probably comfortable on both feet, composed, with great first touch and technique, not to mention excellent passing ability.

It seems to me that a right footer playing right of centre, for instance, will be more likely to be able to control a pass with his preferred foot when under pressure, will have more space into which to pass naturally without having to adjust his body to make that pass under pressure, and therefore should be more comfortable in that slot.

You say that you looked into it in a bit of detail. I'd be interested to hear more about any specific conclusions you reached regarding preferred footedness in the left and right slots in the central midfield? Thanks.

[isuckatfm]

isuckatfm - what you say makes a lot of sense and was basically what I was thinking. Ultimately, a great DLP is probably comfortable on both feet, composed, with great first touch and technique, not to mention excellent passing ability.

It seems to me that a right footer playing right of centre will be more likely to be able to control a pass with his preferred foot when under pressure, will have more space into which to pass naturally without having to adjust his body to make that pass under pressure, and therefore should be more comfortable in that slot.

You say that you looked into it in a bit of detail. What specific conclusions did you reach, if any, about preferred footedness in the left and right slots in the central midfield?

To be honest nothing concrete in terms of conclusions other than what I described. Truth be told I went into it expecting a pattern in terms of average pass direction (right footer to the right, left footer to the left) when looking at the analysis tool. But when it wasn't quite so black and white, the pressure 'theory' did seem to come into play more often than not. Still it's just a theory and I didn't 'record' anything so this is more off the top of my head rememberance coupled with recent playing memory.

I would also agree with what you said about shooting and passing lanes. certain things seem more probable and those definitely seem to be the ones. Long shots in particular I find curlers seem to have more chance of going in and an MC has to be in possession fairly narrow to curl it towards the near post. Then again when attacking with certain set ups re 2 MCs the less aggressive MC opposite to the point of attack does tend to find himself quite central so it might not have a major impact in that context. A bit contradictory I know but meh But for the 'forward running' MC I definitely think right footer on the left and left footer on the right gives better overall results in terms of long shots and slotting through balls to strikers (not gospel though, just my experience).

The only thing I would say is in relation to first touch is that ME wise it doesn't quite reflect real life so what you say is spot on. In other words at the EPL level it's pretty rare to not see a player open his body up and let it flow when he knows he has room to move into, but on FM there will be times where it won’t happen so a right footer on the right side will be more likely to take a ‘positive touch’ as you said whereas in real life a left footer would just let the ball roll. I think it has improved over recent versions but I don’t think it is as consistent as it should be (just my opinion of course)

You might also want to consider how you build from the back if focusing through the DLP.

- GK distribute to LB

- DLP comes looking for the ball

- left footer for more positive first touch

and vice versa. But if the FB tendency is to seek out players down the line and then the DLP comes into a support position seeking out a lay off from a winger then maybe a right footer might, as you said, be better suited due to how first touch relates to footedness in the match engine. As always, although it does tend to follow common sense in terms of how you would envision it playing out, nothing is 100% consistent. I've seen some unnatural looking swing passes at time where players shouldn't be capable of doing it but do it anyway (the type where a right fotter is facing the right back yet can swing his foot around the ball and hit it right across the flank to the left winger).

Not a very structured post as I was writing off the top of my head, which might also make it pretty useless

[crouchaldinho]

Not at all, I always respect your analysis.

Some interesting points there. I think it is obviously going to be a case of experimenting for me and making a few notes on how things pan out in the match representation.

[isuckatfm]

Not at all, I always respect your analysis.

Some interesting points there. I think it is obviously going to be a case of experimenting for me and making a few notes on how things pan out in the match representation.

Post back on how you get on (if you have the time). If you see anyhting that contradicts my 'waffle' by all means let rip

[heathxxx]

This is very interesting.

For me, it depends more so on the specifics of a tactic I'm using and what success I get from certain types of open play.

For example, if I have a MC in the right-hand position, who is likely not only to feed the forwards, but also a wide player, do I want him to play the wide player into space outside the full-back, or inside the full back? To me, I would assume the left footer would be better at the inside ball, with the right footer better playing the outside ball. Does this happen in the match engine? Well, I'll have to do a little experimentation and see, but I've not seen anything concrete so far to say the favoured foot dictates the "favoured" pass.

*Mutters*

Now I'll have to have a look at this properly. Every year one of you does this to me! Comes up with a good thread like this, makes the cogs turn in my head, then I have to have an experimental session!

[SCIAG]

MCl and MCr are far too restrictive IMO.

I don't know about everyone, but for me, most of the time, I don't notice a MCl and MCr, unless the midfield pairing are left and right footed. They tend to switch over freely. It's usually the same with strikers. However, on FM, the positions are rigid. The MCr and MCl must stand in those positions. It's much the same with strikers. Is this the sort of thing that could use improvement?

[isuckatfm]

MCl and MCr are far too restrictive IMO.

I don't know about everyone, but for me, most of the time, I don't notice a MCl and MCr, unless the midfield pairing are left and right footed. They tend to switch over freely. It's usually the same with strikers. However, on FM, the positions are rigid. The MCr and MCl must stand in those positions. It's much the same with strikers. Is this the sort of thing that could use improvement?

Definitely. I would love to see balanced behaviours when an MC partnership is set to mixed runs rather than both midfielders more or less moving in a line.

As it stands a RFD Often midfielder on the right side hits certain spots

- when the attack is down the right he gets into the box but near to the right side attacker and off the near post

- when it attacks down the left the right side RFD often MC will attack the box more centrally

So under one circumstance it can leave you short. So for a mixed combination I'd like to see the left side MC attack the box and the right side MC offer support when the attack is down the right, and then mirrored movements when the attack is down the left. Obviously not 100% robotic but at least a few instances of it. I think that based on current MC movement that should be doable but in the long term I'd love to see more dynamic behaviours but I would guess that is not the easiest thing to code and there has to be a tactics=>match engine translation constraint.

Also not a big fan of RFD Often MCs behaviour where they run right onto the back line when they are not even remotely a potential passing option.

I also think in general midfield movement is quite rigid but I guess from their perspective

- difficulty of mathematically quantifying the concept of movement relative to passing lanes re the man in possession

- issues of balancing the game with respect to said movement (every MC can't be Xavi or Fabregas)

All very off topic, but given the people posting in here I would be interested to see the views on the match engine without the usual descent into hyperbolic madness

[crouchaldinho]

With reference to the last two posts, what I have been wanting in the game for some time now is the following player swapping options:

1) Swap position only.

2) Swap instructions only.

3) Swap position and instructions.

4) Ability to instruct a player to react to another player (e.g. an 'Alternate With' instruction, for instance meaning that players alternate forward runs - one player covering for another when he goes forward, for instance).

This would be perfect for creating more realistic central midfield partnerships.

With respect to what I am trying to achieve, it would be great to be able to get my DLP to switch positions and retain his role during the game.

[crouchaldinho]

I did some testing last night, which became tedious very quickly. The trouble with testing on FM is that I'd much rather be playing games properly rather than scouring the highlights and trying to make conclusions with my eyes half shut.

Anyway, I found it very difficult to reach a firm conclusion about this. If anything, my DLP looked most comfortable playing right of centre and appeared to be able to play more adventurous passes, whereas on the left, the passes appeared to be more possession based.

The difficulty is that the results might well be entirely skewed by something else that I observed from the opposition AI tactics. Playing with a defensive 4-4-2, the opposition would drop their support striker (the right striker) into the midfield to pick up my left midfield player. Of course, what I found was that by switching my DLP to the right, he then avoided being picked up by the support striker and was free to play under little or no pressure. Almost a bit of an exploit really because the AI doesn't react and uses the tactics creator defaults which places the support striker always on the right side. Naturally, my DLP had a storming game on the right, and played with more pressure when I tested him on the left, so I could hardly reach a decent conclusion really.

I ended up reading a Jonathan Wilson article last night, which suggested that England have often played with Barry right of centre, and Lampard left of centre. It's not something that I can recall, and certainly when I went to Wembley last week, Barry was left of centre and Lampard/Carrick right of centre. I'm trying to think of the benefits of having it the other way. :confused:

At the moment, my instinct is to prioritise the footedness of the DLP and play him right of centre in this case. I'd appreciate any more input though.

[isuckatfm]

With reference to the last two posts, what I have been wanting in the game for some time now is the following player swapping options:

1) Swap position only.

2) Swap instructions only.

3) Swap position and instructions.

4) Ability to instruct a player to react to another player (e.g. an 'Alternate With' instruction, for instance meaning that players alternate forward runs - one player covering for another when he goes forward, for instance).

This would be perfect for creating more realistic central midfield partnerships.

With respect to what I am trying to achieve, it would be great to be able to get my DLP to switch positions and retain his role during the game.

The weird thing about your suggestions here is they seem so obvious which makes me wonder if they aren't as easy to implement as a non-programmer like myself would assume they would be, especially 1 and 2.

With regards to the DLP you should bring it up again 'elsewhere', if you get my meaning. Myself and miketheheadlesschicken brought up this issue 'elsewhere' through two versions of the game, namely how static deep lying playmakes were/are. What I was basing this on was what I see the deeper MCs doing for top real life sides whereby they are very mobile in terms of moving around the pitch to offer an outlet. From a mechanics perspective I believe assigning him as a playmaker should help him show more often (if you haven't already). It won't get him switching positions but it should make him less rigid with respect to being a nominal MCr or MCl in the formation screen.

[crouchaldinho]

isuckatfm - yes, I understand what you are saying. (By the way, I have suggested the options I detailed a number of times over the last few versions).

I think you have hit the nail on the head there actually as to what my main problem with it is. I am indeed using the playmaker tickbox for this player, and assigning him as DLP using the tactics creator, and yet his play is still quite rigid, which I guess is why I am here in the first place and looking at the footedness issue! The difficulty is that his movement doesn't seem to be dictated by the space available to the sort of degree that I would like to see, and that it is ultimately too restricted by the positioning of his midfield partner in my view.

Contrary to my title, I am actually using two DMs in a 4-2-3-1. I suspect using a central 1 in the DM strata in a 4-5-1/4-3-3 type formation, or using a Ancelotti-style diamond formation, might be better for the DLP, as he would then be central and able to move into space (not restricted, as he is now, by his midfield partner). I'm sticking with the 4-2-3-1 though as I prefer the system.

[RT--]

The other thing that I usually think about when deciding how to set up your MCs is the opposition's setup.

It seems to me that AI teams (when they play two MCs) very often set up with a 'defend' and an 'attack' option, so one MC tends to make a lot of forward runs while the other drops back in to space.

Up against better teams, I try and focus on aligning my midfielders to tight mark their attacking MC (almost always their MCl) with my defensive MC, whereas against weaker teams I'll try and mark and close down their defensive MC in order to stop them recycling possession easily, and trying to force them in to playing a bit more direct.

I suppose, to incorporate a DLP, I'd want to have a ball-winner or box-to-box guy alongside him, with a support/attack role who's capable of tracking back their attacking player while still contributing a bit further up the field. That should mean your DLP has a bit more space (because his opposite number will invariably be dropping deeper and he doesn't have anyone to pick up when defending), and you have the option of using your AMC to close down that midfielder if you think he's getting too much of the ball.

I'm not sure about the footedness element, really. My usual problem with footedness in a 4-2-3-1 is finding an MCa and and AMC who complement eachother and don't move in to eachother's space when attacking - I find that AMCs tend to drift towards their stronger foot side when they have a free role, but I might be imagining it.

I tend to agree with isuckatfm when he says that right-footed MCls and left-footed MCrs are usually better placed for long shots, but by far my most prolific MC was Fabian Delph on FM09, who played in the MCl slot (with FWR often) and was a left-footer. I guess the ME's changed a lot since then, though

[crouchaldinho]

Good post RT--.

Interesting to note that the AI managers position their MCs by their footedness in almost every case I have seen on my current save.

[mufcmadman]

I've been trying to get a deep-lying playmaker to work for some time and its been quite frustrating at times. Right now I've got the following setup playing from the DM position with a ball winner in the CM position with a slightly lowered mentality. Put the deep-lying playmaker on support but switched forward runs to mixed, run with ball rarely, also switched wide play to move into channels and ticked the roam from position tab. This has got him moving around the pitch to recieve the ball in a Pirloesqu fashion a little bit more and he gets more chances to make key passes. I also put him as the playmaker.

[SCIAG]

Could you put him on "roaming"?

[mufcmadman]

I have it gives the player more freedom to move around looking for the ball. I just wish there were a ppm for comes short for the ball as well as the ppm for comes deep, then you could really see a Pirlo type who moves around the pitch to recieve the ball.

[dz47]

With reference to the last two posts, what I have been wanting in the game for some time now is the following player swapping options:

1) Swap position only.

2) Swap instructions only.

3) Swap position and instructions.

4) Ability to instruct a player to react to another player (e.g. an 'Alternate With' instruction, for instance meaning that players alternate forward runs - one player covering for another when he goes forward, for instance).

This would be perfect for creating more realistic central midfield partnerships.

With respect to what I am trying to achieve, it would be great to be able to get my DLP to switch positions and retain his role during the game.

Yes please SI

[crouchaldinho]

Coming back to the original question about footedness:

When placed in the MCl slot, the player is less likely to receive the ball into his preferred foot. He does, however, have more chance to play dangerous forward balls to the right by opening up his body and using the inside of his right foot. This is clearly an advantage over placing him in the other slot. When coming forward to shoot at goal from range, he may well have the chance now to curl a shot across the goal.

This is what I am finding to be most true for my DLP (right footer).

I have watched over many games now and I feel that he is more effective in an attacking sense when in the left slot.

He can play quality passes down the left side naturally, and can open up his body and play long range passes across to the right flank.

I am also finding that he has a greater tendency to play through balls from a left of centre position.

While playing right of centre, his passes were often less dangerous and more possession-based, and he also seemed to have far less shots at goal from range.

To conclude, I would suggest that any potential DLP should at least be 'reasonable' on his weaker foot, and preferably should be strong on both.

[crouchaldinho]

I forgot to add that my tactic is more effective down the left flank as well, as I play with a fullback on the 'wingback' role down that side. This may also contribute to how effective the DLP is when left of centre because he perhaps has more passing options down the left and it is more natural for him to play to that direction with his right foot.

[crouchaldinho]

Another thing I found is that using the 'swap position' function as it currently stands will result in a new playmaker being named.

So, if you swap your DLP and your other defensive midfielder, for instance, the DM will become the DLP and the primary playmaker when swapping.

[Beardeye]

But for the 'forward running' MC I definitely think right footer on the left and left footer on the right gives better overall results in terms of long shots

I have been giving this some thought recently as I play a flat 4-4-2 and have my eye on a right footed MC with long shots 18. My other MC is right footed LS 12.

I thought that when playing MCr if a MR or striker pulling wide plays an infield pass to a right footed MCr that he can hit it first time into the top right hand corner of the net. An infield pass (from MCl or wide player) if he is MCl would be to his weaker foot.

I havent tested this much so would be interested to know what you think.

It may well be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

[SCIAG]

I've spent the last three Reading matches concentrating closely on Jay Tabb and Brian Howard, our midfield pairing for most of those three matches in a 4-2-3-1 (though Howard was substituted twice). Both players are left footed, and naturally attack minded. In front of them is the right footed Gylfi Sigurdsson, who has transformed into more of a number 10 over the last 12 months or so- in the reserves, he was always a genuine midfielder.

Tabb is full of energy, has some defensive prowess, and can play on either wing or in the full back positions as well as midfield. He is 5'6, and not the strongest, though he has a decent header of the ball when he gets the chance and has a good spring on him. He usually stands on the right of the two. He is slightly deeper than Howard, is more direct when he dribbles, and slightly less technically adept. In FM terms, he is probably a box-to-box midfielder, and he'll get a 7.0 every match.

Howard is defensively weak, but a more skillful player than Tabb. He also doesn't have the energy that Tabb possesses. He is positioned slightly further up the pitch than Tabb, drifting out the left left wing (the other position he is capable in), and his main contribution to play is linking up with the front four. Howard is capable of dropping deep, but it isn't something he does when with Tabb (earlier in the season, when he played alongside the very attack-minded Marek Matejovsky under Brendan Rodgers, he'd come short to receive the ball from the centre backs at the start of every attack). As such, he is often passed by, and the only player likely to pass to him is Tabb himself. Howard takes about 50% of Reading's set pieces, along with Sigurdsson. In FM terms, he is probably an advanced playmaker on a support duty.

Interestingly, when the defensive Brynjar Gunnarsson or the attacking Sigurdsson briefly partnered Tabb in midfield after Howard's substitution, the left footed Tabb remained slightly more to the right than his right-footed partner. My instinct, therefore, is that this was a defensive measure. Reading's full backs are Andy Griffin, a veteran right back on loan from Stoke, and Ryan Bertrand, a young left back on loan from Chelsea. Gunnarsson filled in for Griffin in the second match. Anyway, Bertrand is quick, but Griffin less so, and Gunnarsson is even slower. I think Tabb may have been positioned to the right in order to aid the right back against any speedy wingers, something Howard would not do, rather than for any attacking purpose.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting post SCIAG and some good observations.