Tactical Central & Insight:

[Grokaer]

Didn't mean to wander off topic by mentioning what I said in team talks etc but I want to give as full a picture as possible as, given my tactical niavety in taking the ME on like this, it could be bad decisions elsewhere from me that have caused my results rather than the 10.2 version of tactics that need changing. I am not sure yet what the cause is, could be a few things contributing, but it is still early days.

[melogroovy]

Grokaer, first off as you mention, you need to give the squad some time to gel. Loversleaper will be able to advise you better but I'll give you my input. My game was a little different as I started with Newcastle in the CCC where, even though I was the class of the league, I played most of my games as a "Tactician". When I gained promotion to the EPL, I started all over with the 442 and worked my way up from "Relegation Battler" to "Master Class" by seasons end. Liverpool are a far better team but I still think you need to give them time to gel, especially with so many injuries. I probably would have played the Milan15 tactic for the home game against Burnley as you need to be gelled to really make the SirAlex work. The Milan15 is more direct and puts more pressure on the defense which should prevent a lesser team from getting any kind of build up against you. They'll be more likely sit back. Also, being more direct, it also avoids the mistakes that an ungelled team might make in it's own half.

I'd say that a good 8-10 games is a likely amount of games for a team to get used to the 442 tactics.

I'm not sure what to say on the DC closing down issues. The acceleration is certainly an issue but I would think Carragher would have the positioning and anticipation to make up for that flaw somewhat, not sure about the other guy. Perhaps to help with this issue you could make the whole formation a little narrower by 2-3 ticks.

Not sure about your team talk for the second half. I've found that complacency is a real issue in the game and with a team like Liverpool against Burnley, "Don't get complacent" might have been a better choice. That could be debated though.

Personally, for the Chelsea game, I'd go with the Allegri6. You may have to soak up a lot of pressure early but I found that often around the 20-25 minute mark the tables started turning.

[Grokaer]

Some good advice again, thanks melogroovy. I am going to try the Allegri6 for the Chelsea game as it is dry weather and see what happens from there. I definitely feel my teamtalk at half time was not so good or at least not for my team in the current early stage of my game. Will report back with news on the Chelsea game soon...

With these tactics a month or two ago on 10.2 I won the quadruple in my first season as Liverpool running away with the league by around 10 points+, winning the league and FA Cup both against Spurs (who finished 2nd in the league in the end) and beating Barcelona in the Champions League final. Just as Rafa could say now, what a difference a season can make! The difference now, rather than use the tactics blindly and when I'm in trouble just swap tactics or make subs, I am trying to understand taking the ME on, why the tactics work or dont (if you choose the wrong one) and how to tinker with that tactic during a match becasue the tactic itself may be the right one, but just needs a tweak to respond to the ME.

[Grokaer]

Ok, I'm in trouble now, lost to Chelsea 1-0, dry and away, started with unaltered allegri6. As melogroovy correctly predicted I was under the cosh for first 25 mins or so and conceded after 17 mins, Reina saved a 20 yarder which came out to Drogba on edge of 18yard box and he rifled it home.

After 30 mins I controlled the rest of first half and hit the bar with a Dzeko header and Kuyt had a goal chalked off for a marginal (at best) offside.

The second half started with Chelsea getting a 1 on 1 which Reina saved then it was 50 -50 roughly for the next 20 mins with Chelsea finishing the stronger. Tried subs for last 15 mins but to no avail.

Now 18th in league! I do feel a little hard done by tho - I've not been too far away from 2 wins and a draw in these first 3 games.

Reina

Johnson Carragher Otamendi Aurelio

Kuyt Mascherano Gerrard Riera

Dzeko Lukaka

Went with Otamendi to give me a bit more pace and acceleration at back. At least didn't lose goals thro middle as I had been doing in previous game with teams passing straight thro me. Apart from a couple of times, Chelsea didn't really thraten me in that way. Gerrard and Mascherano were not fully fit after their injuries but decided it better to risk them.

[Grokaer]

Birmingham at Home, Dry

Following melogroovy's advice I thought I'd start with Milan15 rather than SirAlex15 here to try and apply more pressure to Birmingham and keep the ball away from my defensive third as much as possible. The game was largely uneventful, I took the lead towards the end of the first half hour.

Birmingham looked like they were coming a little into the game and so at 65 minutes I switched to Athletico11. I am mad I didn’t take an earlier piece of advice from melogroovy to narrow my formation by a couple of clicks as come 82 mins I lost an equaliser as they played right through the centre of me from open play.

Result: 1-1, leaving me in 18th after 4 games and under pressure to arrest this quickly and get my first win on the board. I love a challenge.

I need to get to the reason why teams are able to pass through me and score as this has been where most of my goals have been lost.

I am starting to think that there may be an element of Si having tuned Liverpool down slightly compared to 10.2, based on the form they have shown in real life. I am conceding late goals which is what happened to Liverpool for a spell this season although most of their goals conceded were from crosses, mine are coming from being played through the centre.

Not sure if I have to narrow it down and lessen DC closing down or widen (which seems to be more successful after 10.3 according to some people on the forum) and increase closing down – is there a closer link now to width and closing down?

[Loversleaper]

Birmingham at Home, Dry

Following melogroovy's advice I thought I'd start with Milan15 rather than SirAlex15 here to try and apply more pressure to Birmingham and keep the ball away from my defensive third as much as possible. The game was largely uneventful, I took the lead towards the end of the first half hour.

Birmingham looked like they were coming a little into the game and so at 65 minutes I switched to Athletico11. I am mad I didn’t take an earlier piece of advice from melogroovy to narrow my formation by a couple of clicks as come 82 mins I lost an equaliser as they played right through the centre of me from open play.

Result: 1-1, leaving me in 18th after 4 games and under pressure to arrest this quickly and get my first win on the board. I love a challenge.

I need to get to the reason why teams are able to pass through me and score as this has been where most of my goals have been lost.

I am starting to think that there may be an element of Si having tuned Liverpool down slightly compared to 10.2, based on the form they have shown in real life. I am conceding late goals which is what happened to Liverpool for a spell this season although most of their goals conceded were from crosses, mine are coming from being played through the centre.

Not sure if I have to narrow it down and lessen DC closing down or widen (which seems to be more successful after 10.3 according to some people on the forum) and increase closing down – is there a closer link now to width and closing down?

I am sorry that I wasn't able to write before, becasue I didn't get the chance to explain why some of the tactics work better than others in the situations that you are presenting. First of all, the match against Burnley should have be played with either Arsene_(18) or Milan_(15) - this is due to the tactics using a much heavier closing down (than SirAlex) which you need to do against teams like Burnley. SirAlex is a good tactic for beeing a top team against another top team on home field. Home Against bottem opposition you need a tactic that uses Closing Down settings of (17) or (18) to actually break down their defensive stance and since SirAlex has a Closing Down setting of (15) you can see that this might have not been enough. I think also you shouldn't have let the two Center Backs Close Down the same as the team - it could be one of the reasons that you lost. Sometimes you will not control the start of a match but this is no need for concern, usually your team will overpower them during the match and you should have easily crushed them. Next time you are at home against these type of teams (Burnley, Birmingham, ect...) please try the Arsene_(18) in good weather or Milan_(15) in rainy weather and see how it goes, I think you will see the difference...

[Beardeye]

Closing Down settings of (17) or (18) to actually break down their defensive stance and since SirAlex has a Closing Down setting of (15) you can see that this might have not been enough.

If you are watching the game in full match mode you can usually tell when to implement closing down 17/18 (high pressure) or just a normal attacking tactic. When the opposition are playing very defensively- i.e are playing very few forward passes, their wide players are making no forward runs and ESPECIALLY when they start time wasting when the ball goes out of play (throw ins, goal kicks, free kicks) its time for high pressure.

If they are playing a counter or balanced strategy (more forward runs and passes) switching to high pressure is suicidal as it will pull all your players out of position due to their high closing down.

It takes a long time to be able to read the ME and know when to switch up/down and I have lost many games (and sometimes still do) due to getting it wrong, especially if im being lazy and not watching on full match (time is precious for me).

[Loversleaper]

If you are watching the game in full match mode you can usually tell when to implement closing down 17/18 (high pressure) or just a normal attacking tactic. When the opposition are playing very defensively- i.e are playing very few forward passes, their wide players are making no forward runs and ESPECIALLY when they start time wasting when the ball goes out of play (throw ins, goal kicks, free kicks) its time for high pressure.

For sure, this is the case. You have to "High Pressure" the opponent at this stage. It is very important to notice this aspect of a 'high Timewasting' opponent as this gives a clear indication of what Gamers can do to combat this AI tactical strategy. If the opponent is not using this strategy then... :

If they are playing a counter or balanced strategy (more forward runs and passes) switching to high pressure is suicidal as it will pull all your players out of position due to their high closing down.

This is usually how the more stronger opponents play, if one attempts to Close Down this type of opponent too much then they might have players that can 'escape' the pressure and do damage to your team with a successful counter. Good observation...

It takes a long time to be able to read the ME and know when to switch up/down and I have lost many games (and sometimes still do) due to getting it wrong, especially if im being lazy and not watching on full match (time is precious for me).

One has to know what to look for when looking/observing the ME in action, once you see these type of 'patterns' then it is easier to quickly know what one can do to at least give your opponent 'a run for the money' (so to say) by making a more or less correct decision. I also wanted to add to the Post above regarding Grokaer's detailed input, that when you use a High Pressure tactic then if you are not in front around the 75-80th minute in a match (or the opponent scores a late equaliser) - then it is a good idea to go straight to one of the All Out Attack tactics : 4-2-4_England'66_(21), 4-3-3_Terim_(21) or the 4-2-3-1_Laudrup_(21) depending on what formation you normally play or preference. Home field against poorer opposition you need to really go forward when you are larger favorites, but one can always attempt this strategy (Home or Away) in the last 10 minutes if you have nothing to loose.

Thanks for participating in the thread, Beardeye, very good observations -

[Grokaer]

Good info guys on recognition of the match engine, I appreciate your input (Loversleaper, Melogroovy, Beardeye) and I'm now moving on from OMG I can't tell what the match engine is doing or I'll never understand this to a state of seeing progression by a couple of stages -

1. Learn which tactic to use according to match engine/odds/circumstance e.g. favourite to win at home - attack (esp. against better teams), spot time wasting go for high pressure, no break through - go for broke in last 10 mins or so. Be more cautious away from home, against weaker teams start no more than Ranieri13, against slightly better teams according to weather have options of Athletico11, Italy10, Allegri6 and Aguirre6. Don't be afraid to drop to Athletico11, Aguirre6, Allegri6 with narrow lead after 60-65 mins etc (learn to spot patterns)

2. Once I get better at 1. learn to recognise how to tinker with tactics - say I may have the correct tactic but just need a minor tweak to do with defensive line, closing down, width etc.

3. Ultimately I would like to have the knowledge to create my own tactics that are as good as Loversleaper's and know it is all my own work but I'll settle for learning to walk before I can run!

Next Match - Away to Tottenham, Dry (they don't get any easier after the start I have made)

Started with Italy10, 'for the fans', Was under the cosh with only 1 breakaway and shot on their goal so after 40 mins switched to Allegri6. Before this could take effect, a long punt finds Torres just inside Spurs half, he outpaces 2 defenders and slots an excellent finish into the far corner of the net, Spurs 0 Liverpool 1. Tactical change then takes effect and almost immediately, Stevie G rifles in a 25 yarder for 2-0. 'Pleased' at half time, aware that my players need a boost considering their start, thought this was better than 'don't let your performance drop'. Kept with Allegri6 and for first 30 mins I was under cosh again (all crosses, long shots or shots from nearer in but angles that are certainly not certainties to score from, and only 1 one on one chance conceded which Reina saved). It was enough pressure to make me feel I was leading a slightly charmed life at least but for last 20 mins + injury time I began controlling the game (perhaps in part due to a couple of subs to bring fresh legs on) and deservedly scored a 3rd through a Dzeko header from a corner in the 91st min.

Result 3-0 Liverpool at Spurs which gives me my first win and Torres (first game back since preseason injury - and he picked up a knock early on but kept him on for 60mins roughly) and Gerrard their first goals of the season, and Dzeko his 2nd which he needed after a patchy to poor start for me to be honest.

Bought a 29yo Paraguyan striker called Salvador Cabanas on deadline day to try and take pressure off my 2 young 16yo starlets Lukaka and Sanogo for a bit. Good heading and finishing stats.

I know I am receiving much help at the moment (and I am v. grateful) but I hope I can provide some feedback (albeit better feedback as I get used to making better tactical decisions) on your tactics on this version (10.3) Loversleaper while I learn. Feel free to let me know if I am just clogging up this thread unnecessarily and if there is a better way to report info to you as I do not want to clog up this valuable resource (forum) for others.

[Grokaer]

Away to Unirea Urziceni in first Champions League match, 1st group game, dry, start with Italy10

Not too much to report, I controlled 90% of match and Dzeko scored with a lovely passing move through centre after 10 mins.

On 30 mins, their only chance came from a penalty that was saved by Reina. Scored 2 goals in 2 mins a few mins after penalty save which both came from moves down the left and a short range cross from Torres for a tap in for Dzeko and a cross from Riera for Kuyt to head in. They had a spell of possession around 65 min mark so switch to Allegri6 to close out game, regained some control and scored on 92 mins (Lukman Haruna) with a nice shot from edge of box after a move down left. Final score 4-0 Liverpool.

All in all I am very pleased to have arrested the slide, got 2 wins in a row and 2 clean sheets. I basically sold Benayoun, Babel, Lucas, Degen and Kyrgiakos and some players in reserve team to fund Dzeko, Otamendi, Skjelbred and Annan (the latter 2 can't play in Champions League - ineligible) and about 12 or so players aged 16-18 who I think may be prospects from scout reports. All purchases over 4 years. I started the this match with 2 - Serge Aurier RB in for injured Glen Johnson, Lukman Haruna (DM in for injured Mascherano and Annan being ineligible), and James Rodriguez came on around 60mins for Gerrard who had taken a knock.

[Loversleaper]

Grokaer: you won't clog up the thread and am actually happy to have this interaction, I think it can only help people so please feel free to participate as much as you like. It looks also that you are actually comming to terms with the ME reality and am glad about your progress that you have described in the above posts. It might seem that it is a lot of work but judging by the progress you are making that it actually is not as complex as some people fear because a little practice is all that is needed.

A couple of things to note is that your team needs time to settle so at the beginning you might experience some difficulties, but there will come a time that your squad is 'gelled' and your team will start playing much better. Also be aware of changing a lot in your team as this retriggers a 'gelling' phase, but as long as you are aware of this aspect it gets easier to tackle. You might have to play a little more cautious minded to 'scrape' in results to start with but then slowly push more forward when you feel your team has settled. Young players are not always the best option when you are a top team as they swing alot in quality untill they become 'established', Wonderkids have a better chance of taking the pressure that comes with first team football.

Another thing that I wanted to add is the game you played against Chelsea: this is where it sometimes is a good idea to change Formation to nulify potential Positional threats that some formations have. Chelsea usually play a 4-1-2-1-2 formation, that means they implement an Attacking midfielder that can cause you problems. In this case I think it is a good idea to use a tactic that implements a Defensive Midfielder (anchor-man), so away from home (the game you mentioned away at Chelsea) you might want to try 4-1-3-2_Dunga_(7) in good weather or 4-1-4-1_Tapia_(7) in rainy weather. Sometimes it is a good idea just to quickly check these aspects and then use the 'drop down menu' to change to another formation - it does pay off from time to time.

I am enjoying this interaction and am very happy that others (such as melogroovy & Beardeye) have time to participate as they do know what they are talking about. We can always get the tactical outlook wrong but the more we understand this the less frequently this will happen. I have been playing mostly the 4-2-3-1 formation since the patch update (10.3.0) but will venture into the other formations soon. The tactics in the thread are just to show how tactics work, when you learn how to use Mentality and the other sliders (values) then it becomes much easier to make your own tactics, these tactics in the thread are so different from eachother that it should illustrate that there are no 'magical combinations' that make tactics work - it is all about how you approach the next game on your fixture list...

[Kung]

i enjoy ur sets,usually i stick to the 4-4-2 and the variations that ur sets offer me. as soon as the team is as i want it and gelled,i always get a good save with ur sets... looking forward to ur tweaks to the 4-4-2 sets,ure a life saver

[Grokaer]

Next match home to Wigan, Dry

Started off with Arsene18, didn't massively threaten and on Wigan's first breakaway I got back to cover before a penalty box scramble occurred which resulted in a goal for Wigan. I immediately changed to the Milan15 fearing the Arsene18 was too much at this stage of the season for me in this particular match. That steadied the ship and after a nice move Kuyt (he's been a beast so far for me, probably my best player) provided a nice composed finish firmly inside the far post. I said dissapointed at half time to all but 2 players who had a rating of 7.4 and 8.3 (Kuyt). The rest were between 6.1 and 6.8 with a couple in the 5s. On 49 mins, a free kick from the right saw a great header from Kuyt, 2-1 Liverpool. Around 60 mins I switched to Italy10 and within 3 mins didn't like the look of it (had a bad feeling) and so switched to the Allegri6 for 65 mins. Held out without either team really threatening massively, for periods I seemed to concede a bit of territory and posession but I wasn't being threatened. I seemed far more comfortable in the last 5 mins tho.

Result 2-1 - important win, keeps the run going with 3 wins in last 3 games (1 of which in Champions League) after 2 draws and 2 defeats to start off. Felt like one of these games where I wasn't going to run away with it (perhaps down to me, not sure) but that it was just important to "dig" out the win. You can't play well all the time and probably just to do with gelling now I think about it.

I know what you mean Loversleaper about young players. Not really relying on them per se. I try to always have 2 players for each position (first team player level and squad player level) and then another 11 at least of promising youngsters. It just so happens that with the injuries I have had so far this year and that in Champions League, 2 of my squad central midfielders (Annan and Skjelbred) not being eligible for Champions League (guess their teams must have had a 1st round match and so were selected in their 25 right at the start of the game virtually cos I signed them within first 2 weeks of start of game) that I have had to blood a couple of youngsters so far (James Rodriguez and Lukman Haruna) - the only thing I don't like is that as 2 MCs they play alongside each other. If I could do it by choice I would always have a more experienced player "beside" a youngster. However, they have done quite well so when required.

As you say I think I have made a bit of progress, it comes down to one taking the time and making the effort. It's as complex as that. The fact that there are people like yourself and others with more experience than I (and that I am a willing listener) that are kind enough to offer valuable advice probably hastens my growth a little. Thank you.

[Loversleaper]

Grokaer: the Milan_(15) is more of a "lethal touch" type of football. The Defensive Line is set to (13) so that you are not sitting too far forward and this combined with the Direct Passing + higher Time-Wasting causes the team to hold on to the ball and make a pass when the forward players get into more dangerous positions. You won't always controll possession and it is a good tactic for rainy weather, because these type of matches you just want to try and get the result. It can be a 'safer' tactical choice at home as larger favorites when your squad isn't totally gelled yet.

The Arsene_(18) usually is the right choice when the weather is good and you are larger favorites and possess a good/great squad. I can say this from experience that you might not controll the match untill after the 30th minute in the first half. I don't know if this is due to the opponent having high fitness levels early on in the match so it might take a little bit of time (and pressure) before your team gains controll over the match. Funnily enough I have experienced that the first time I start using the Arsene that it looks a little 'shakey', but after this point it usually 'kicks in' and you totally dominate the game having around 55% (or more) possession. There might be a slight adjustment phase that one has to go through but am confident that you need to give it more time. At one point against a poorer opponent try and play the tactic all the way through to the end of the match and see if this isn't the case. The only tweak I usually implement is if I have a slender lead I will take away Run From Deep & Run With Ball from the Fullbacks around the 80th minute.

It is important to scrape in the results at the start of the season because you need to build form/momentum. When your form is getting better the more defensively your opponents have to play as they realise that your settings/capability can easily overpower them and the AI will try to raise their Defensive capability causing you to be able to play more attacking/controlling type of football. I think you are on the right track but I think that it isn't necessary to go too defensive on home turf and should be going for the 2-3 goal lead. It is almost impossible to dominate every game but if you can dominate around 75% of them then you should be doing very well resultwise. I think that you might need to play another 10 games or so before you will be fully gelled - I noticed that the gelling phase is one of the things that the SI have slightly adjusted with the new patch...

[Grokaer]

Thanks Loversleaper, will bear that in mind.

Next game: Home to Colchester, Wet, League Cup

Started Milan15 - took a risk here and started with 9 of my squad players and 2 young starlets with my bench consisting of Torres, Carragher, Reina and 4 young starlets. The idea being if I got a good enough lead, I could use the match to give some of the starlets a few minutes. Didn't work out that way, Lost a goal after 18 mins, equalised after 25. Around 52 mins introduced Carragher and Torres, Torres scored on 54 mins my new striker Cabanas (squad striker) scored with 6 mins remaining.

Result 3-1 Liverpool. A little fortunate here and a lesson that at this early gelling stage I perhaps should have retained a few more of my starting line up. I conceded a lot of shots from distances but not chances you would say were stick ons. Again, probably gelling here and too many players who had not played regularly this season in the first team so I probably got away with this one. Colchester had about 8 shots to my 18. However, I didn't create enough good chances until I brought Torres on which was disappointing.

[Grokaer]

Next match Home to Stoke, Dry

Started Hiddink15 (concerned about maybe being slightly cautious during gelling time) and took lead after 15 mins thanks Mascherano dispossing Fuller and passing to Dzeko who passed to Torres who finished inside the far post.

A few minutes after half time, in a moment of bravery or foolhardiness I went Arsene18 - bottled it as Stoke were having too much possession in my half (and a goal disallowed from a header off a corner) and around 68mins switched to Athletico11 promising myself to be a bit more cautious till I felt gelling had occurred. The rest of the game was pretty much a non entity although I probably controlled most of last 10 mins and almost scored on 90 mins with a free flowing breakaway move but was foiled by a great save from the keeper.

Result 1-0 Liverpool and another important 3 points. After 7 premiership games and a WDL record of 3-2-2 I consider myself to be very fortunate to be only 5 points of 1st place (I'm currently 7th) although 2nd place has a game in hand which if hey win I would be 6 points off top - not bad after the start I made!

[Grokaer]

Next game - Home to Real Madrid Champions League, Dry

They play a 4-2-2-2 (almosta 4-2-4) with 2 advanced wingers and 2 DMs. For this reason and gelling I decided to try and start with Athletico11 - Real Madrid bossd most of time apart from a couple of flurries from me which did create a couple of great saves from their keeper but nothing sustained. Lost Riera and Aurelio to injuries in first 20mins - Riera after 1 min) Because it was mostly 1 way traffic I switched around 35 mins to 4132Dunga7 as before it was essentially 4 vs 4 (my defence vs their attack) as it gave me extra security of a defensive midfielder - I could have probably done without the 3 CMs and had 1 CM and 2 wide midfielders but I gave it a go as is. Unfortunately I forgot to take fwd runs off my fulkl backs (something I usually do when coming up against advanced wingers although advanced wingers normally means 1 up front, not 2 as real madrid had here). I lost a goal around 43 mins to a Kaka 25 yarder.

First half analysis - Madrid coming at me wave after wave - 1 or 2 flurries here and there from me but nothing else.

Second half, Decided to say disappointed to team at half time (all morales switched to superb) even though it may have been tactically my fault here. Switched to Milan15 around 52 min mark, Equaliser after 57 mins. More of the same, waves of attacks from Madrid and nothing from me - on any breakaway I was losing the ball with a misplaced pass and then they were coming at me again. Switched to Allegri6 to try and gain a bit of possession and slow things down - still more of the same Madrid attack after attack. Ended up on Aguirre6 (I think for last few mins) but still no change.

Result 1-1 (bonus as I stole a point there somehow!)

Second half analysis - like 1st half - mostly Madrid waves of attacking, very odd flurries from me

Loversleaper - any ideas what I could/should have done to change the flow or is there gelling? Do AI teams suffer gelling? I mean Madrid had a host of new players this summer.

I don't think I helped myself by when playing Dunga and Allegri I forgot to take fwd runs off my fullbacks. I think I needed a DM at least and needed a formation with wide midfielders and not 3CMs (perhaps a 4-2-3-1 solution?) What do you think?

[Grokaer]

Sorry for the crude display below, couldn't get print screen to work right, but here are match stats at full time:

| Liverpool | Statistic | R. Madrid

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 11 | Shots | 19 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 2 | On Target | 8 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 7 | Off Target | 5 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 2 | Blocked Shots | 6 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 0 | Woodwork | 0 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 0 | Clear Cut Chances | 2 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 3 | Long Shots | 9 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 43% | Possession | 57% |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 3 | Corners | 14 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 12 | Free Kicks | 11 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 13 | Throw-Ins | 17 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 8 | Fouls | 9 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 3 | Offsides | 3 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 71% | Passes Completed | 74% |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 23% | Crosses Completed | 6% |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 68% | Tackles Won | 56% |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 72% | Headers Won | 47% |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 0 | Yellow Cards | 1 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 0 | Red Cards | 0 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 125.5 | Kilometres Run | 126.9 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

| 6.96 | Average Rating | 6.83 |

| -------------------------------------------------------

[melogroovy]

Update on my 4th season overall and 3rd in the EPL.

Finished 24-8-6, +42 good for 2nd in the EPL. I've now gone 4th, 3rd and then 2nd. Maybe that means I have to top the table next year.

I wanted to make an effort to do better in the domestic cups and made it to the final of the League Cup. Liverpool dominated the game and I lost 2-0. I lost in the 4th rd of the FA Cup beaten in the replay by West Ham at Upton Park. They beat my 2nd XI as at that point of the season, it seemed like I was playing every three days.

In the Champions League, I won my group, beat Toulouse in the first round knockouts, beat Chelsea in the quarter finals but was beaten by Arsenal in the semi's.

Man City won the league, beating my at St. James in the 3rd to last game.

A fine season but in my three biggest games, I came up short. Citeh bossed me at home to virtually clinch the EPL, Liverpool dominated me at Wembley and Arsenal won both legs handily of the CL semifinal. I never, ever felt like I had control of any of those four games.

I played exclusively with the 4-2-3-1 and I think I'll bring the 4-4-2 back. In retrospect, having it at my disposal would have really helped.

Here's my squad

GK Diego Benaglio, Fraser Forster

DL Vasco Regini, Stephen O'Halloran (Jose Enrique demanded to be sold mid season)

DC Sokratis Papastalopolous, Tamas Kadar

DC Steven Taylor, Jordan Loties

DR Nenad Tomovic, Loic Abenzoar

MC Danny Guthrie, Abdeleziz Barrada

MC Javi Garcia, Bas Konterman (regen)

AML Balasz Dzsudzsak, Petter Vaagen Moen

AMC Ninis Sotiris, Cleyton

AMR Pedro Leon, Cleyton, Petr Dostalek (regen)

ST Welliton (35 goals in 50 (3) appearances!), Catalin Craciun, Shola Ameobi

After getting my money for the EPL and CL, I have 105M in the bank. I think I can stop shopping for bargains and splash some cash so I have better depth on my roster.

[Beardeye]

Next match home to Wigan, Dry

Started off with Arsene18.

As I mentioned above, high pressure tactics are risky if (a) you are not heavy favourites in the match odds; and (b) the opposition is not playing ultra defensive (few fwd runs and lots of time wasting) but a counter or defensive mentality.

In my experience the only time u need high pressrue is when you are on a good run of form (several wins in a row or unbeaten) and the opposition is on a bad run of form. Given that you have not had the best start to the season i dont expect this would be the case against Wigan- what were the match odds? I would be willing to bet that wigan played a counter mentality and thats why you went 1-0 down early.

Loversleaper- I notice that there isnt a distinction between the layout of the High Pressure tactics and normal attacking tactics in your OP- this may be causing some confusion? In 09 (which i am still playing) there was normal attacking tactics like Milan, Argentina which were (i think) a distinct section (or heading) from milanhighpress/ sir alex/arsene i.e the high pressure section.

This was a really helpful distinction for me, as i learnt to play attacking tactics at home when favourite, but would switch up to high pressure if i saw timewasting/ultradefensive AI.

[Loversleaper]

Grokaer: I took the liberty of starting a Liverpool game and am trying out the 4-4-2 tactics with some alternative formations if need be. I have only made a few signings: Cristaldo 2.8m, Varretti 270k & a center back from Barcalona Muni-something for 950k plus a cheap 17year old left back from Man C (240k I think). So that was my transfer budget and chose not to sell anyone just yet. I changed out most of the Coaches though...

Liverpool as is needs quite a lot of improovement especially in terms of broading the squad. Players like Beniyoun & Babel needs to be changed in the long run and you need to work a lot on bringing in more class in Defense. But this will take a season or two as Liverpool at the start needs to start bringing in some cash. Liverpool also has an injury-prone squad so all in all, needs some long term planning.

I have played around 10 games last night and I think that you can play more pressure tactics as long as your first choice players are fit. In a home game against Sunderland (same type of strength as teams like Wigan, Stoke, Birmingham, ect...) in dry weather (2nd or 3rd league game) I tried the Arsene_(18) as I were larger favorites and this is basically how the game went:

After 30 minutes: possession was about equal but a little in my favor. I had 5 shots total with 3 on target, but Sunderland had 8 shots with 2 on target.

At half time: possession was 53% for me. Shots were 10 with 3 on target, and funnily enough Sunderland had exactly the same. Now this might seem worrying for some but I know that this phase of the game is usually like this. I do not think it is a cause for concern, of course I said that I was 'disappointed' with the 1st half display but didn't change anything.

At the end of the game playing the tactic with absolutely no changes: possession was 58-59% in my favor iirc. I don't think that Sunderland had an honest shot at goal in the second half & won comfortably 3-1. I will post the PKM of the game below and you can take a look so that you can see basically how the tactics work from time to time. The key thing is to not panic and make drastic changes too early just because your team has had a few scares - you will witness this aspect in the PKM.

The game against Real Madrid at home: I would have treated that game as if I were a slight underdog regardless of Match Odds. That means I most likely would have played the 4-4-2_Sacchi_(14) tactic and maybe would have romoved Run From Deep & Run With Ball from the fullbacks if they implemented pushed up wingers.

So far in my Liverpool game I am using more of the Shorter passing tactics (like Italy as away favorites) and am enjoying a lot of possession stats. Liverpool have a decent technical team so I think it is the right choice...

Liverpool - Sunderland PKM: http://www.mediafire.com/file/qarj4zwnmnd/Liverpool v Sunderland.pkm

As you can see I went also down early on...

[Grokaer]

I think you are probably right Beardeye, I think Loversleaper had suggested earlier in the post that once gelling had occurred Arsene18 would be a good start for games where I was a strong favourite for my team Liverpool, perhaps I misunderstood. Certainly after the start I had I probably should have been more cautious.

I may probably look to start Hiddink15 and wait to see signs of timewasting before switching up at the moment.

I can't remember the odds. Would need to check when I get home.

As always, your input is always appreciated. Any ideas about my Real Madrid post above - why I couldn't seem to get into the game?

[Grokaer]

Thanks Loversleaper, I'll have a look at this when I get home. Very interesting insight as usual and plenty of food for thought. It's tough at this stage not to start second guessing yourself at times and that is what I am sometimes doing.

Because I am not up on the patterns I am perhaps seeing this as worries that are not as worring as they seem based on your analysis.

I agree the Liverpool squad needs tightening up and I had to sell Babel, Lucas and Benayoun for up front cash and make my purchases over 4 years to strengthen the squad. 2 players I like but have not had the money for yet are Phillipe Mexes (DC) and Moussa Sissoko (DM) to strengthen the defensive side. I did buy Otamendi (young DC and star of future I think) and I have 1 of the best young right backs in the game (16 yo) as cover for Johnson (forget his name) and he has 3 starts already as Johnson had an injury and he has been 1 of my best players in each of these games which is quite impressive.

[Loversleaper]

melogroovy: The thing about Cup Finals is that you are most likely playing on a Nuetral pitch. Using the 4-2-3-1 tactics I would have probably played the 4-2-3-1_Benitez_(10) - which is also the best Mentality framework for being slight underdog in the Final. If you were stronger favorites then you could go up to a Mentality framework of (13 - perferably) or (14). Frameworks of (7) or (8) are better as larger underdogs in the Final, so sometimes you almost have to change formations or change settings within the formation that you perfer to play. The Capello used to be one of my favorite Cup Final tactics regardless of Match Odds - but haven't been there since the new patch.

The thing about the Champions league is that in the later stages of the tournement the Players Quality become more apparent. You need players that really relish the big matches (maybe explains why you fall short in the really important matches) or it will seem as your team just has "run out of steam". It is difficult but not impossible & usually it is down to getting those last couple of real Quality that one needs to get to take that last step into the Final. The progress you are making from season to season is how I experience things as well and you might need to become a little more tactical and play games more on full in those all out important matches to see exactly what is going on so and what you might need to change (having the City game in mind you mentioned). Sometimes it is only a question of "a few degrees" in those all out important matches. It could (irretating enough) also be a small mistake in team talks and this is an element I find incredibly annoying as I can just sit back and watch a game I simply can't change as the players are simply not motivated. I am getting better at team talks though and it is helping somewhat...

[Beardeye]

Any ideas about my Real Madrid post above - why I couldn't seem to get into the game?

Match odds are always a good start, but assuming you were slight underdogs Athletico 11 was probably a safe choice. Playing against a different formation always poses problems so i close down always on players outside the normal 4-4-2 strata (i.e pushed up wingers, DMCs, AMC) as standard. Removing full backs fwd runs is also useful, and if balls are going over the top to them, lower D-line.

However, Real Madrid have a massive reputation and u will often struggle against these until you can nearly match them for repuation/player quality. Sometimes your team just doesnt perform and it can be a combination of the match engine taking into account your team's reputation vs theirs, form, motivation, team talks, player quality, ability to handle big matches/pressure, tactics etc. Sometimes the ME reflection of deficiencies in these tranlsates as you players looking crap! I think Loversleaper calls it the 'overall calculation' which is performed pre-match.

However, even with the right tactics, motivation, players, opposition instructions, pressure/important match players a team like real madrid can still beat you with their quality. i wouldnt worry about it- and anyway you got a draw! In a few season when you have built a good squad and may have had more success, i would start worrying about how to beat real madrid!

[Loversleaper]

As I mentioned above, high pressure tactics are risky if (a) you are not heavy favourites in the match odds; and (b) the opposition is not playing ultra defensive (few fwd runs and lots of time wasting) but a counter or defensive mentality.

In my experience the only time u need high pressrue is when you are on a good run of form (several wins in a row or unbeaten) and the opposition is on a bad run of form. Given that you have not had the best start to the season i dont expect this would be the case against Wigan- what were the match odds? I would be willing to bet that wigan played a counter mentality and thats why you went 1-0 down early.

Loversleaper- I notice that there isnt a distinction between the layout of the High Pressure tactics and normal attacking tactics in your OP- this may be causing some confusion? In 09 (which i am still playing) there was normal attacking tactics like Milan, Argentina which were (i think) a distinct section (or heading) from milanhighpress/ sir alex/arsene i.e the high pressure section.

This was a really helpful distinction for me, as i learnt to play attacking tactics at home when favourite, but would switch up to high pressure if i saw timewasting/ultradefensive AI.

I might have to go more into detail about the explanations on the issues you mentioned. The MilanHighPress from FM09 is now the 4-4-2_Milan_(15) whereas the MilanNormal has been renamed 4-4-2_Sacchi_(14). When I wrote the thread I was still in the "testing phase" so unfortunatly I had to add-on along the way and this could have casued the confusion you mentioned. I will go through it and see what could be done - so if you have anything you think should/could help in this process please feel free to drop me a mail. The thing that is difficult for me is to simplify the explanations so that it won't look more complexe then it actually is. I think that it will take FM Gamers a little bit of 'learning' just like the approach you have taken, thankfully though it shouldn't take that long and usually it is a question of being a little patient. This is an advanced game...

[Beardeye]

if you have anything you think should/could help in this process please feel free to drop me a mail. This is an advanced game...

A lot of work has gone into your post so I appreciate re-writing would be time consuming! My only suggestion for now would be to have sections that organise the tactics into:

1. High Pressure

2. Attacking

3. Balanced

4. Defensive

5. All out Attack

so users learn the distinction.

. This is an advanced game...

True Story. Your tactics have helped me with that side of the game, but it has also taken a long time to get to grips with motivation and team talks, player attributes and developing youngsters. Its only since I have got used to all of these elements that I have had success, and i am by no means a master of any of them.

[Loversleaper]

Any ideas about my Real Madrid post above - why I couldn't seem to get into the game?

I think Beardeye was very correct in his explanation of this scenario. You can't expect to dominate a team like Real so early on in the game. As Beardeye mentioned sometimes it does take a season or two (maybe more!) before you can really challenge these type of teams and put them under-pressure. Usually it is a 'grab and run' type of game with these type of opponents. It could also be the case that you needed to play a mentality of (10) or (11) as Beardeye mentioned and had the 4-4-2_Sacchi_(14) as your attacking option. You will have to play several of these type of games before you start to get a good idea of what one can do...

My first test was with Real and I used mostly a combination of the 4-2-3-1 & 4-1-2-2-1 (4-1-4-1) tactics, I can say this for sure: Real have an exceptional attacking team - I was on an 18 win run before I went over to the Liverpool game. You need quality established players to really compete with a team like this...

PS: forgot to add that one of the problems that Liverpool might have with High Pressure tactics is that the Greek center back and Carrager are very slow, so unfortunatly you will have to consider changing these players out when you can...

[Kung]

will you do any updates on your sets or do you feel like there is no need to?

[Loversleaper]

A lot of work has gone into your post so I appreciate re-writing would be time consuming! My only suggestion for now would be to have sections that organise the tactics into:

1. High Pressure

2. Attacking

3. Balanced

4. Defensive

5. All out Attack

so users learn the distinction.

This could help and on top within the types of strategies have the explanations (Master-Class, Tactician & Relegation Battler) that fall under each category. Hmmmm... I could re-write much of this without writing that much (copy & paste -). I'll look into the aspect in the upcomming weeks - I have a job that has to be minded as well...

[Loversleaper]

will you do any updates on your sets or do you feel like there is no need to?

So far I think they actually have become better with the new patch. I like what I have seen so far so don't think anything has to be changed, I have only tried Real & Liverpool so far - but have the impression that the ME values are working as intended & you can use a bigger variety of tactics. Personally I still think that it is too easy to overpower the AI but also think that the SI have found a good balance for the FM Community. In the long run though, I think it is necessary for SI to rethink the Wizard strategy and simplify it...

[melogroovy]

melogroovy: The thing about Cup Finals is that you are most likely playing on a Nuetral pitch. Using the 4-2-3-1 tactics I would have probably played the 4-2-3-1_Benitez_(10) - which is also the best Mentality framework for being slight underdog in the Final. If you were stronger favorites then you could go up to a Mentality framework of (13 - perferably) or (14). Frameworks of (7) or (8) are better as larger underdogs in the Final, so sometimes you almost have to change formations or change settings within the formation that you perfer to play. The Capello used to be one of my favorite Cup Final tactics regardless of Match Odds - but haven't been there since the new patch.

The thing about the Champions league is that in the later stages of the tournement the Players Quality become more apparent. You need players that really relish the big matches (maybe explains why you fall short in the really important matches) or it will seem as your team just has "run out of steam". It is difficult but not impossible & usually it is down to getting those last couple of real Quality that one needs to get to take that last step into the Final. The progress you are making from season to season is how I experience things as well and you might need to become a little more tactical and play games more on full in those all out important matches to see exactly what is going on so and what you might need to change (having the City game in mind you mentioned). Sometimes it is only a question of "a few degrees" in those all out important matches. It could (irretating enough) also be a small mistake in team talks and this is an element I find incredibly annoying as I can just sit back and watch a game I simply can't change as the players are simply not motivated. I am getting better at team talks though and it is helping somewhat...

These are all excellent points. In the LC final against Liverpool, it was more my fault than anything. I started Benitez and played them evenly for about 30 minutes. They started to exert some control and started playing more in my half. Instead of sticking to my guns, I switched to 4231McGath to push back a little more. Which worked as I closed out the half 0-0. However, they opened strong against McGath and scored within a couple of minutes and I chased them the rest of the way to no avail. I probably should have opened back up with Benitez and I was obviously outclassed with my halftime talk.

Losing to Arsenal and then Man City were definitely due in part to tired legs (partially injury too, but everyone has them). I'm always being told that my team does well against high reputation teams but I could see that the passing was tentative and all my players were allowing the ball to be taken from them. In each of those three games, rather than allowing my team to settle in, I compounded the problem by switching tactics. Plus it seems like I was hitting a lot of woodwork and just missing on some headers...but isn't that always the case when you are chasing a goal? Also, Arsenal are said to struggle against the 442 and it would have been nice to throw that at them.

You also make an excellent point about watching those big games. I should have gotten off extended and watched them in full. That idea never occurred to me.

I need better quality depth (signed Vladimir Koman from Inter) he's a rocket and play play AMRLC, he can back up Sotiris and Pedro Leon and I want to find a pacy striker to both help back up Welliton along with Craciun and log some time in the 442. As I look back and review my players, Welliton was definitely over worked. Of my 59 games, he appeared in 53 of them and 50 of those were starts. Looking at the last two months I can see where his game ratings slowly declined. I can't let that happen again.

I'm trying to take my time going into next season. I'm pretty close to where I want to be and just need to take that next step.

[Loversleaper]

These are all excellent points. In the LC final against Liverpool, it was more my fault than anything. I started Benitez and played them evenly for about 30 minutes. They started to exert some control and started playing more in my half. Instead of sticking to my guns, I switched to 4231McGath to push back a little more. Which worked as I closed out the half 0-0. However, they opened strong against McGath and scored within a couple of minutes and I chased them the rest of the way to no avail. I probably should have opened back up with Benitez and I was obviously outclassed with my halftime talk.

These type of games are usually back and forth so in this case I think you probably shouldn't have changed to something more defensive-minded. Even though you could be underpressure at times in the game you could just as well have a spell of dominance that could fall into your favor. Cup Finals between two relatively equal teams will always have you on the edge of your seat, but the question is if the 50-50 strategy (like Mentality 10 offers) could fall to your advantage...

Losing to Arsenal and then Man City were definitely due in part to tired legs (partially injury too, but everyone has them). I'm always being told that my team does well against high reputation teams but I could see that the passing was tentative and all my players were allowing the ball to be taken from them. In each of those three games, rather than allowing my team to settle in, I compounded the problem by switching tactics. Plus it seems like I was hitting a lot of woodwork and just missing on some headers...but isn't that always the case when you are chasing a goal? Also, Arsenal are said to struggle against the 442 and it would have been nice to throw that at them.

You also make an excellent point about watching those big games. I should have gotten off extended and watched them in full. That idea never occurred to me.

Going into detail is a definate plus/advantage. Knowing your opponent can help you win as I have also seen opponents struggle against certain tactics - so this is one of the reasons that I have all the tactics within reach (drop-down menu) just in case. That vital league point can make a world of difference when you add everything up at the end. Against Arsenal if they are using the 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) formation with the pushed up wingers I hope you made the fullback tweak...

I need better quality depth (signed Vladimir Koman from Inter) he's a rocket and play play AMRLC, he can back up Sotiris and Pedro Leon and I want to find a pacy striker to both help back up Welliton along with Craciun and log some time in the 442. As I look back and review my players, Welliton was definitely over worked. Of my 59 games, he appeared in 53 of them and 50 of those were starts. Looking at the last two months I can see where his game ratings slowly declined. I can't let that happen again.

I'm trying to take my time going into next season. I'm pretty close to where I want to be and just need to take that next step.

Somehow I have noticed that some players kind of burn out along the way. It is not always a good idea to change too much at one time but bringing in new players can have a good effect. Like in the Real game I mentioned I have only one really decent fullback (Marcelo) so he must have thought he was pretty safe & played a couple of torrid games. In January I recieved a whopping 46m pound transfer kit and my first step was to bring in a extra left back and what do you know - Marcelo played is heart out to keep his place. Motivating players is a must and you can do this several ways : in the press - handing out fines - and bringing in competiton. I have also witnessed that I have had a good squad, but after I brought in a couple of extra class players it somehow effected the entire squad (increasing it's over-all value) causing matches to look incredibly different...

[KrisL]

i have to say your tactics are amazing i was in a title challenge with hull first season until i played the big teams away from home and i fell away at the end

[Loversleaper]

i have to say your tactics are amazing i was in a title challenge with hull first season until i played the big teams away from home and i fell away at the end

Thanks for the kind words. It is not so much the tactics that works - it is how you use them and it looks like you have a very good idea on this matter. As Beardeye mentioned, it is also a matter of learning how to motivate your players which aids in this process. I am, too, looking forward to play as a Relegation Battler team to see how I fare - I don't know if I will do as well as you but I do know that this is possible. To beat the big teams away you need to really know how to combat their formations because not all of them use a sterile 4-4-2 formation. Well done & hoping to emulate your success!!!...

[Nykav]

Also like the tactics a lot. Started with Dorchester in the Blue Square South. Basically followed your guidelines on how to use them in lower leagues. Managed to win the league in the 2nd season and now 8th in the Blue Square Premier. This season things are tougher, which makes perfect sense considering the quality of the players. It seems though that I have relatively more issues with the home strategies (especially Milan and Sacchi) than with the away strategies (Aguirre/Atletico) compared to last season. Thanks again for the tactics and good discussion.

[Konfuchie]

Maybe I'm a little off topic but I'd like an explenation of something I never understood properly in 2010.

What is exact difference between fluidity/rigidness, creative freedom and high/low roaming?

Thanks

[Grokaer]

However, even with the right tactics, motivation, players, opposition instructions, pressure/important match players a team like real madrid can still beat you with their quality. i wouldnt worry about it- and anyway you got a draw! In a few season when you have built a good squad and may have had more success, i would start worrying about how to beat real madrid!

I think I was a slight favourite remembering back. Good point well made.

[Grokaer]

PS: forgot to add that one of the problems that Liverpool might have with High Pressure tactics is that the Greek center back and Carrager are very slow, so unfortunatly you will have to consider changing these players out when you can...

I got rid of the Greek centre back (Kyrgiakos I think) on last day of transfer window. Otamendi, a youngster for the future has pace and acceleration of around 14. He's not ready yet though but is currently my fastest DC. Agger is almost back from injury. My 4 DCs for now are Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Otamendi. Hopefully I can start bringing Otamendi on for the last few mins of some games when winning comfortably to help him on.

Would like Mexes in the summer though - he played well for me in 10.2. Another young player who has usually developed into a great player is Mamadou Sakho (probably about 19, French and starts game with Paris St Germain, not too pacey though in 10.2)

[Grokaer]

Maybe I'm a little off topic but I'd like an explenation of something I never understood properly in 2010.

What is exact difference between fluidity/rigidness, creative freedom and high/low roaming?

Thanks

Konfuchie:

I'm sure one of the other guys will correct me if I am wrong but I am going to take a stab at this -

Fluidity / rigidity I think are to do with formation and how well your team holds it's formation collectively. The more rigid you are, the more the players collectively hold your formation.

Creative freedom I think is to do with decision making and can give players some freedom to deviate from your instructions if they see a good opportunity whereas roaming is positional and you can allow certain players to roam from position (used to be free role in previous versions of FM)

[Grokaer]

Next Game: Portsmouth Away, Dry

Started with Italy10 but saw their formation was 4-2-3-1 with the 3 attacking midfielders being advanced so switch to Athletico11 and kept an eye on proceedings in case I had to cover the AMC with a DM. Scored from a header from a corner on 17 mins. They looked a bit more threatening at start of second half so switched to Allegri6 and got a second on 56 mins from a breakaway. Controlled the rest of the game until 80mins where more of the play came into my half. Perhaps I was too deep with the Allegri.

Result 2-0 Liverpool, 4 league wins on the trot. Interestingly, after my poor start in August where I was 18th after 4 games with 2 draws and 2 defeats, I won manager of month in September with 3 wins on spin, now obviously added a 4th.

Not too much to say about this game other than I controlled most of it apart from the first 10 mins of 1st half, first 10 mins of second half and last 10 mins. The first 2 spells at the beginning of each half were pretty much 50-50 but the last 10 mins was more 60-40 to Portsmouth in terms of where the game was being played. The rest of the time I was 80-90% dominant.

[Grokaer]

Liverpool - Sunderland PKM: http://www.mediafire.com/file/qarj4zwnmnd/Liverpool v Sunderland.pkm

As you can see I went also down early on...

Thanks for this Loversleaper. Just watched the game now.

I certainly would have bottled it at 3 separate points in the match and changed back down fearing I was on the wrong tactic at that moment of the game. This I guess may be due to not yet recognising the ME patterns, not having seen enough games looking at the ME in this way and perhaps an unrealistic expectation of how my team should play with this tactic so clearly the penny is still slowly dropping!

Around 10 mins, the end of the first half and early in second half (just too long before you got your second I would have changed when they hit the post I think).

I think you got it in a nutshell when you spoke of panicking. How much of the difference in your second half performance would you put down to the high pressure nature of your tactic wearing them down - that's what it looked like a little, (I can describe what I am trying to get at with this general football quote which goes along the lines of, "you must win the battle to win/earn the right to play football") and how much to your 'disappointed' teamtalk?

[melogroovy]

Going into detail is a definate plus/advantage. Knowing your opponent can help you win as I have also seen opponents struggle against certain tactics - so this is one of the reasons that I have all the tactics within reach (drop-down menu) just in case. That vital league point can make a world of difference when you add everything up at the end. Against Arsenal if they are using the 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) formation with the pushed up wingers I hope you made the fullback tweak...

You know what? I didn't. And Walcott torched me for the first goal in the first leg. He was playing on the left and got by my FB. With my FB on his heels, he got to the box, cut in and as my DC closed down at the edge of the 6 yard box, Walcott jinked right and slid the ball inside the far post. It was a really wonderful goal and a great effort but it was all started when he got behind my FB too easily. Had I set FWR to rarely, it probably wouldn't have happened. Once they scored, it seemed like I was forever chasing.

[Beardeye]

Had I set FWR to rarely, it probably wouldn't have happened.

That can certainly help. Also keep an eye out for how the winger received the ball. Was it a ball over the top from a midfielder or defender? If so and it happens more than once I normally:

a) drop the D-line by 2-3 notches; and

b) use opposition instructions to close down always the player playing the pass.

[Loversleaper]

Thanks for this Loversleaper. Just watched the game now.

I certainly would have bottled it at 3 separate points in the match and changed back down fearing I was on the wrong tactic at that moment of the game. This I guess may be due to not yet recognising the ME patterns, not having seen enough games looking at the ME in this way and perhaps an unrealistic expectation of how my team should play with this tactic so clearly the penny is still slowly dropping!

Around 10 mins, the end of the first half and early in second half (just too long before you got your second I would have changed when they hit the post I think).

I think you got it in a nutshell when you spoke of panicking. How much of the difference in your second half performance would you put down to the high pressure nature of your tactic wearing them down - that's what it looked like a little, (I can describe what I am trying to get at with this general football quote which goes along the lines of, "you must win the battle to win/earn the right to play football") and how much to your 'disappointed' teamtalk?

I can reveal that this is how matches can go from time to time, especially when you have started a new team & something you might lookout for at the start of most seasons where you don't really have a "result form" to look at. Your observation of the 'breaking down' process is basically how I see the game in this phase, later on in the season you will be able to "high pressure" these type of opponents the entire match (pinning them down). The only thing you have to be aware of sometimes is that opponents can change their manager to more better ones and some teams will fight to avoid relegation or go for a Euro spot (late in the season). You might have to take some of these games more in detail.

I think when you have got down your strategy you will see that it is not that necessary to change formations once you have the starting (of a match) framework correct. Away you might want to change to something more defensive around the 60th minute (if you are playing more attacking) and maybe have a more attacking framework ready if you are not overpowering a weaker opponent - but you know/realise quickly how to combat this when it happens. At home I would argue that you rarely have to change and maybe just stick to the important fullback tweak in the last ten minutes (when opponents switch to 4-2-4 or something incredibly offensive). Usually you can hold them back with the right framework...

I am glad you looked at the match so you can see what you can expect in these circumstances. I think you are getting better and when you break the ice you will no longer need any advice as it (the ME) will make sense even though you might not always get the result (welcome to the club!-). The team talk needs to become more and more demanding so High Pressure is usually combined with "I expect" theory (unless rivals: "for the fans"). The best advice for team talks is to basically follow Wolfsongs guide on team talks - it can make a difference...

[Loversleaper]

You know what? I didn't. And Walcott torched me for the first goal in the first leg. He was playing on the left and got by my FB. With my FB on his heels, he got to the box, cut in and as my DC closed down at the edge of the 6 yard box, Walcott jinked right and slid the ball inside the far post. It was a really wonderful goal and a great effort but it was all started when he got behind my FB too easily. Had I set FWR to rarely, it probably wouldn't have happened. Once they scored, it seemed like I was forever chasing.

The pushed up wingers should never be left to drift down the wings so that is why the fullback tweak is really important. In this version (10.3.0) formations can really be hard to combat (more than previous versions) so I am finding out that you really need to come up with a plan to neutralise certain 'threats'. For example the 4-2-3-1 and other formations that implement the advanced Attacking Midfielder really needs an 'anchor man' to stop him. I have noticed that the AI will play him the ball (maybe using the Playmaker option) where he is standing between your two lines of defense (defense & midfield) which can really cause your team problems. This is basically the same ideology with the pushed up wingers where the opponent will be bombing the ball down the wings - and you can see the problem if your fullback has wonderdered too far forward (maybe attempting a cross that is unsuccessfull). Good you noticed the Walcott issue as this strengthens the reason I always look out for this...

But it does look like we (as FM Gamers) need to go a little more into detail regarding the formation issue and I am just comming to grips with this myself. Never have some formations been so hard to combat with the wrong formation. Adds to the experience, I guess...

[melogroovy]

The pushed up wingers should never be left to drift down the wings so that is why the fullback tweak is really important. In this version (10.3.0) formations can really be hard to combat (more than previous versions) so I am finding out that you really need to come up with a plan to neutralise certain 'threats'. For example the 4-2-3-1 and other formations that implement the advanced Attacking Midfielder really needs an 'anchor man' to stop him. I have noticed that the AI will play him the ball (maybe using the Playmaker option) where he is standing between your two lines of defense (defense & midfield) which can really cause your team problems. This is basically the same ideology with the pushed up wingers where the opponent will be bombing the ball down the wings - and you can see the problem if your fullback has wonderdered too far forward (maybe attempting a cross that is unsuccessfull). Good you noticed the Walcott issue as this strengthens the reason I always look out for this...

But it does look like we (as FM Gamers) need to go a little more into detail regarding the formation issue and I am just comming to grips with this myself. Never have some formations been so hard to combat with the wrong formation. Adds to the experience, I guess...

You nailed it. It was a FB cross that was headed out, gathered and a diagonal pass out to the wing and Walcott was off to the races.

As far as your observations about threats in 10.3 I think I see what you see. Previously, I didn't use OIs with your tactics but maybe in some cases it may be needed. Maybe set the MCr to man mark the playmaker and either mark tighter or close down heavier. The other option would be to bring the MCr mentality down closer to or equal to the DC mentality but that could disrupt some of the offensive continuity. I'm about to start friendlies in the next season. Maybe I can experiment a bit and look at some options. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

[KrisL]

Need some help I can't win away matches anymore

[Loversleaper]

Need some help I can't win away matches anymore

Are you still playing as Hull? Are you in the second season? What type of opponents are you struggling with?

I ask these questions because if you did carry on with the Hull game (and season 1 you really overperformed) then you might be experiencing a much more defensive opponent. You could have gone through the transition phase of being a Relegation Battler to being a Tactician/Master-Class type of team/manager. A big problem that you could be facing is that since your opponents have increased their Defensive overall values/capabilities ( due to you overperforming) then you may have problems overpowering them with your Attacking value/capability. This is why you really need to find players that can cope with this reality and on top you may have to change strategies where you attempt to outplay your opponents. Transition phases can be very hard to deal with and know (maybe) what you are going through as I experience this myself. Sometimes this requires a more longer term strategy of building your squad/facilities in conjunction with your expectations.

If you give an idea of what teams you have played plus tactics that you used (with a general match odds indication) then I am sure that we can look at these issues together and see what could be done. I stress that you will not be the only one that will experience this so it might be worth a little debate/analysis. Thanks...

[KrisL]

I'm hull and it's the 3rd season I got beat 3-1 off of west ham when I beat them 3-0 away first season got beat off of wolves when I destroyed them first season an o beat tottenham first season and they beat me. Do you think I should start looking at changing to the tactician tactics as I was following the relegation battler