Tactical Central & Insight:

[PAFC]

Thank you to Loversleaper for this thread and the excellent guidance and intelligence provided within.

There is always some genius who comes up with a way of explaining coherently how to interpret the match engine, I think you have done it this time in the same way that SFraser did it with FM09 and the "Less is More" approach, and wwfan did a few years back with the rule of two.

There is potentially nothing wrong with posting and downloading a tactic with little explanation or consideration as to how or why it works, and there is obviously a fan base for that kind of thing, but I prefer to tinker around until I find something that works, whilst at the same time occassionally picking up a nugget like this, that can be implemented into my evolving tactic.

I do have two questions:

1. I generally play with a 4-3-3 formation, the narrow default version, not the 4-5-1 variant, and I use core mentalities of 9 and 12. This has been successful so far, although I am at the point where I may need to move to 15 for home matches soon, but I have found that sometimes changing formation e.g. to 4-1-4-1, whilst maintaining the 9 mentality is a better away strategy against heavily favoured teams. The information above indicates it may be better to stick with 4-3-3, but reduce mentality even further e.g. 6, be good to get your view on the formations versus mentality (or gelling versus flexibility) debate?

2. I think I am obsessed with the rule of three (I still blame wwfan for my need to weave perfect mathematical patterns ;-) ), and have found similar to yourself that a variant of +/- 3 on the team settings do not compromise the fluidity, but allow the flexibility to add roles e.g. defend, support and attack by adjusting mentality, and increase or decrease creative freedom according to role, I see this as adding to your base tactic approach, but I see that you use this sparingly, is this to keep things simple, or is there another reason?

Thanks again for taking the time and effort to educate us all :-)

[Kung]

I am trying some of the tactics out with Watford in the Championship and they are working quite nicely. The only real problem I had was that I needed to change a lot of the squad to fit my ambition, this changing of the squad really upset the balance of the team and at times we played really badly due to players not 'gelled' or 'settled'. I had to play more cautious then normal (started out playing mostly like a Relegation Battler). I'm using the 4-4-2 & the 4-2-3-1 by the way, and it honestly took a good 15-20 games before my team started remotely playing any good. I had 4 wins - 6 draws - and 3 losses and a some of the points were due to me playing incredibly tactical (changing during games strategically to grab a late point) and it payed off. After this point we looked like a total different team (so don't loose faith). This is something that FM Gamers must not forget, and I think this actually is the reason that many loose faith in thier tactics. When the squad is 'gelled' then you get a whole different game and you almost can't believe the difference. So this is the only problem that you will encounter if you decide to use these tactics for the Lower Leagues (but this goes for all tactics).

To succeed at lower levels, you need long time squad planning and you most likely will choose tactics that are more 'direct' in nature. I personally would choose the 4-4-2 set (easiest to adapt to for the players), so I would most likely use the Aguirre(6), Athletico(11) & the Hiddink(15) as my Defensive, Normal and Attacking tactics. Maybe have the Milan(15) as my High Pressure tactic and, of course, the 4-2-4_England'66_(21) as the 'throw it all forward' in the last minutes of matches to snatch a goal...

combining your 4-4-2 sets with 4-1-3-2 wide from TBH and in october i start to get some good results ( squad have gelled ) and i like your sets alot.

I actually tend to use with good weather home sir alex,rain i use milan,away i use sometimes atletico or italy away,im currently 2nd in legue 9 games unbeaten run,looking good so far

[Loversleaper]

PAFC:

1: I, personally, think it is a good idea to change to a more defensive positioned tactic of the same formation especially with formations other than the 4-4-2. For example in my 4-2-3-1 set I have a more defensive Mentality tactic that is slightly changed in formation to a 4-4-1-1 where I have pulled the two pushed up wingers back. In the 4-1-2-2-1 (which is also a type of 4-3-3) the more defensive Menatlity framework uses a 4-1-4-1 formation where also the wingers are pulled back compared to the more attacking frameworks. You are also correct that you will have to play more 'diverse' when implementing the Menatlity setting because the AI will be trying to overpower your capabilities at one point. Mentality is important, but this must work in conjunction with Closing Down and Defensive Line, you need to press the opponent high up the pitch to avoid them passing the ball around the back (causing you to have low possession stats) and running down the clock. You might have to even reverse the roles at times...

2: I have gone away from split menatlity frameworks because I find that the team plays better as a unit. I found that having players on different instructions could cause too big a contrast within the team that causes a form of incoherency in the behavior of the players. I am not saying that a band of three won't work, or other split mentality ideologies, I just think it is important to keep the team as close to eachother as possible. Mentality, for eample, effects the (general) direction of passing, so if you have too big contrast within the team then it can cause some of your players to evade from the overall game plan by back passing more or pulling a little more back instead of pushing forward with the team (thus closing 'gaps' on the pitch). If you choose this approach then I would keep the 'middle' mentality setting on a player that is in the middle of the tactical framework (usually the DM or CM) and increase/decrease from that 'pivotal' point. I, personally, keep most settings on team settings to keep the whole tactical process as simple as possible (less tweaking) and honestly I haven't encountered any difficulties with it. Defenders can easily have just as high Creative Freedom as the attack (thus offering more playing options) as long as your overall tactical outlook (re: Mentality frameworks) are correct. For me, this approach has emphasized the 'playing as a unit' gamestyle and this is the way I prefer to play (appart from the ME responding well to it)...

Thanks for the feeback -

[PAFC]

Thanks, excellent response, will look for an appropriate time to incorporate these ideas into my current save.

On a slightly different slant, when considering the ability of a team, would it be fair to say that the less ability the team has, the more important it is to provide individual guidance e.g. big four in the premieship could arguably be set to mixed individual instruction, because creative freedom and their own decision making capability will largely mean they select the appropriate option, whereas at a lower level it may be necessary to offer a preferred default behaviour (rarely/often) as the creative freedom is less, as is the individual decision making ability?

[Loversleaper]

Thanks, excellent response, will look for an appropriate time to incorporate these ideas into my current save.

On a slightly different slant, when considering the ability of a team, would it be fair to say that the less ability the team has, the more important it is to provide individual guidance e.g. big four in the premieship could arguably be set to mixed individual instruction, because creative freedom and their own decision making capability will largely mean they select the appropriate option, whereas at a lower level it may be necessary to offer a preferred default behaviour (rarely/often) as the creative freedom is less, as is the individual decision making ability?

When I am dealing with the sliders there are certain tactical rules and they usually follow the descriptions in Part#3: The sliders. Mixed settings will be effected by, for example, Creative Freedom because if you use it lower the player will choose a more safe option then a daring one (within it's 'perimeters'). Safe might sound good, but not if you want to break down a very compact defensive opponent, 'unsafe' can also be very good for those players that have the quality to do the unexpected and decide a match. The 'degrees' of this is taken into consideration in the downloadable tactics and most of the settings are closer in nature to balance the tactics more. Somethimes you can 'break away' from this assumption but you still need to take into consideration what settings your team might be able to handle, usually any setting of (15) and over crave either you have good players or that you are much better than your opponent...

[Kung]

im impressed,im winning and winning with the 4-4-2 set,often by 2-3 goals up....

Trying with 2 saves 1 with notts,i dominates there,and on my old save with st etienne and belgium,where i changed a few games in to the season to ur tactics,when i get the version picking right i have now a chanse of winning the legue im halfway and jan window is opening soon,so i can bring in a winger or to. Currently 2nd place

[Loversleaper]

A little update: I have included some alternative formations/tactics in post#4 in the thread. Important to know that in the ALternativePack there are two tactics that I feel are quite necessary for the 4-4-2_set and the 4-1-2-2-1_set.

#1:4-4-2_Sacchi_(14): this is a good home tactic for the Relegation Battler and can proove to be more effective then the Hiddink_(15). I recommend also this tactic for the Tactician as a home tactic in very rainy weather, the Milan_(15) might be too hard to handle for some teams so this is a nice alternative. Definatly should be imported into the 4-4-2_set.

#2:4-1-2-2-1_Queiroz_(10): alterantive to the Mourinho_(10) tactic which might be too daring. Queiroz is not as wide in width as Mourinho and can be used by other teams then the absolute Elite. Also can be played in any weather.

Other tactics include the 4-4-2_Germany_(12) for summer competitions played on nuetral fields (WC, EC, ect...) if you have a strong team but maybe lack technical flair players.

The 4-2-3-1_Halilhodzic_(4) was a test that prooved quite interresting. As Catania away against Inter I played much better then them and should have won the game. Experimental Closing Down (10) and Defensive Line (5) settings, but very narrow and short passing so should be used in good weather. Fits into the 4-2-3-1_set.

I tried (for the first time this year) a 3atTheBack tactic and it worked out quite well. 1Sw-2-5-2_Rehhagel_(5) is the start of maybe designing a 3atTheBack set and looking at some of the other settings from other tactics you could play around with the idea (like evolving the tactics into a 5-3-2 and/or 3-5-2)...

A solid away tactic in the 4-1-3-2_Dunga_(7). Quite ambitious but incredibly tight tactic with short passing, so better for good weather.

After looking at the settings in the 4-4-2_Allegri_(6) I found that they compliment a 4-3-2-1 formation as well, so I included this version as well. Fits into the other LoneStriker tactics.

Of course I had to include one of the strongest Counter-Attacking tactics that the Ancelotti used during his time at Milan. It is a 4-3-2-1 formation but should only be used by the real Elite teams, best for good weather.

Since Arsene started using the 4-1-2-2-1 formation this season, I have celebrated this by including this version of his tactical ideology...

I had to include a 4-3-1-2 formation so I decided on the Zenga_(13). Counter-Attacking in the same categorie as 4-4-2_Ranieri_(13) and good for games on Nuetral Pitches...

Again I stress: the 4-4-2_Sacchi_(14) is a must for the 4-4-2_pack. I hope people don't mind but this thread is still a 'work in progress' so there could be updates in the future but I will notify through the thread and will add (eventual) new tactics in the AlterantivePack. Thanks & good luck...

[Kung]

thnx for ur hard work,will try the sacchi tactic

[chronic haze]

what sought of oppisite instructions do u use like the tactics by the way

[Loversleaper]

what sought of oppisite instructions do u use like the tactics by the way

I actually almost never use OI, it might happen on a rare ocassion that I tight mark a player that tears opponents appart but honestly I don't bother with it (usually a midfield playmaker that is world class- Gerrard springs to mind). If you close down the opponent in the right way I think it should be enough. There are 'flip-side' alternatives when using the OI, I haven't tested them enough to say that it is a better solution but I have tested them enough to see these 'alterantives' (players leaving zones, out of position closing down, cutting in opposition players, ect...). I might be just too lazy...

[chronic haze]

cheers mate its the only thing that was struggling with

[melogroovy]

I actually almost never use OI, it might happen on a rare ocassion that I tight mark a player that tears opponents appart but honestly I don't bother with it (usually a midfield playmaker that is world class- Gerrard springs to mind). If you close down the opponent in the right way I think it should be enough. There are 'flip-side' alternatives when using the OI, I haven't tested them enough to say that it is a better solution but I have tested them enough to see these 'alterantives' (players leaving zones, out of position closing down, cutting in opposition players, ect...). I might be just too lazy...

Just want to say how impressed I am with these tactics and the write up in the opening posts. I was doing fine with the TC until the 10.2 patch which, (for whatever reason) robbed me of my effectiveness. I had lost integrity at the back 4 and wasn't creating good chances anymore. A little frustrated and thinking of setting the game aside for a bit to regain focus, I instead decided to give your 442 set a try. I remembered how much I liked your insight from FM09 and adopted your global strategy with good success.

Your 442 tactics are real solid at the back and depending on the conditions/odds, I'm confident that I can approach each game with a good chance to win. I started a Newcastle save, made few changes to the roster (except some loans for the rotation), set Jonas at ML and am playing him as a playmaking winger. I then set Carroll as a target man and set Enrique, Simpson and MR Ryan Taylor to cross aim for the TM and am on my way. Newcastle are 7-1-0 in the first 8 games. My only loss was in the League Cup when I lost away to Barnsley. That was my fault, though, as I was up 1-0 in poor weather and went too defensive in the final 10 minutes (I went Aguirre, rather than Athletico), yielding the equalizer and eventually losing on PKs.

I had been a big fan of the TC and it's preset player options and shouts but began to lose some faith with it and the ME. Your tactics have given me faith in how the ME works again and I hope to incorporate the global mentalities you advocate in conjunction with the TC and perhaps get the best of both worlds, if that's possible. Thanks again for your insight and providing stability for me with your tactics set.

[chronic haze]

i dont know why im complaining im doing rearly well with the 4-4-2 sacchi tactic home and away but the oppersition rearly do have alot of shots against be n e way i can stop this

[Loversleaper]

Just want to say how impressed I am with these tactics and the write up in the opening posts.

Thanks-

I'm confident that I can approach each game with a good chance to win.

Understanding how the AI reacts to your frameworks for certain situations is one of the best methods to gain success. There are certain 'patterns' that appear but would argue that they are not so complex that we cannot understand them. These tactics are also 'base' tactics so it is good that you can adapt them into your team and make the appropiate changes that compliment your team. It's not the tactics, it's how you use them...

My only loss was in the League Cup when I lost away to Barnsley. That was my fault, though, as I was up 1-0 in poor weather and went too defensive in the final 10 minutes (I went Aguirre, rather than Athletico), yielding the equalizer and eventually losing on PKs.

That is why this game is not all about one match. Learning from them is the only way forward, just as you illustrated here. You have to sometimes 'get a feel' of your squad's overall strengths before we can make the best assumptions when we are deciding tactics for the next match or during a match. Realising it when these things happen help you in making a better choice the next time around (you might want to play some matches on full just to see effects of situations from time to time)...

... and I hope to incorporate the global mentalities you advocate in conjunction with the TC and perhaps get the best of both worlds, if that's possible.

It is possible, but one has to get accustomed to what degrees the settings have in the wizard/creator and from there you might have to do some personalised tweaking. Also the change in degrees of settings that touchline shouts cause, you might want to quickly glance around team and players settings to see what has been effected and how much. I think it might take a little time, but can't imagine this process is any easier learning the 'classic version'. Once you learn this part of the wizard/creator it might proove that you can obtain the same just as (or more) easy, but I couldn't say for sure.

Thanks for the feedback...

[Loversleaper]

i dont know why im complaining im doing rearly well with the 4-4-2 sacchi tactic home and away but the oppersition rearly do have alot of shots against be n e way i can stop this

Before I can help, it would be nice to know what team you are. Usually I don't recommend that you use such a high mentality framework (as the Sacchi_(14)) away from home, this is probably why you get a lot of shots against you on goal. Better use a tactic that has a more defensive mentality away from home. If you have too many shots against you at home it might be because you are actually not attacking enough. I need to now what team you are and what is your media prediction to give you best advice...

[chronic haze]

im birmingham second season i have tweaked tactic slightly and doing rearly well just played arsenal away lost 2-0 but created 5 clear cut chances just letting the squad gel to the tactic its working well

[Loversleaper]

im birmingham second season i have tweaked tactic slightly and doing rearly well just played arsenal away lost 2-0 but created 5 clear cut chances just letting the squad gel to the tactic its working well

Away to Arsenal as Birmingham in the second season I most likey would have played the 4-4-2_Aguirre_(6). If I had done some very good signings and was overperforming I might have played the 4-4-2_Allegri_(6) if the weather was good. I think you need to play a little more cautious away and see how it goes...

[drevil1969]

your stuff is always really easy to read and use lovesleaper well done!

[Dolphin]

well done, Loversleaper! keep it up

[TheMister]

LL, thank you for the time and effort you have put into this thread.

I've been persevering with the Creator as it really is a much more appealing interface than the Classic version; however I've now got to conclude I just can't get anything workable from it - that's to say I just can't do it, not that the Creator is rubbish!

I'm now returning to the methods you outline. I used them with adaptations in '09 and they worked well for me - varying between fantastic and slightly over achieving. I've already briefly tried a 442 and a couple of 4231s and they have given better results than what I was doing previously.

So I'll be starting a new save and just using the 442 set for a while, whilst I choose my own formation and tactics and test that in an old save now and again. Hopefully by the time I've got it ready my squad will have settled and should handle the transition OK.

Thanks again for your contribution here, it's valued by several I'm sure.

[Loversleaper]

I was thinking of maybe showing some games now and then just to give an idea at times what type of tactic works for different situations:

I was managing Watford and this game is taken out of season 2. First season playing in the Championship I didn't start out with any really good players, but made some fantastic loan/signings that I strongly recommend:

Yannis Tafer (loan from Lyon). Highest average rating in the league, 18 goals in 26 league matches (he had some injury breaks).

John Fleck (loan from Rangers). Once he turned 18 he turned on the style.

Leo Schwechlen (loan from Monaco). Stable & versatile defender.

Craig Cathcart (loan from Man U). Class defender for the Championship.

Franco di Santo (loan from Chelsea). When I got him on loan after New Years day, his goals brought us into the top three.

Dorian Dorvite (loan from Tottenham). Brought him in when Cathcart left in January.

Jose Baxter (loan from Everton). Season long loan, cover for attack/right wing/attacking mid.

Yakabu (free transfer). Stable right back, International player.

Ivan Helguera (free transfer). Experienced cover for the center backs.

Kabous (free transfer). Central midfielder that has class to play in the EPL.

Ian Walker (free transfer). Good GK backup for 1st choice Loach.

Marco Verratti (325k from Pescara). Has his moments of absolute class.

The one thing I have noticed about loans is that they don't really take that long to 'settle' as transfer signings. So, first season in the Premier I was of course a Relegation Battler and due to numerous signings had a real tough time. Right now though, 30 league games into season, my team is sitting stably within the 9-12th spot in the league. I don't think I can finish further up then 9th place as there is a big gap up to 8th place where you have teams like Tottenham, Arsenal and Manchester City. So that race is pretty much over, but for a team predicted to finish 18th I think I have done okay so far. I need to concentrate on getting a stronger defense. The game I have uploaded is a home game against Manchester United, I was Large Underdog (up against it) no doubt. My home pitch is standard dimensions and the weather was fine (dry). Now, normally away from home against a Giant Opponent your normal team talk would be "pressure is off", but we are at home this time so I thought it would be more appropriate to say "wish luck". At half time the Assistant suggested "pleased", I know that I am more than "pleased", I am "thrilled". After the match didn't matter what the Assistant said, I thought it was "fantastic"...

PKM:http://www.mediafire.com/file/ghj1jmn3mom/Watford v Man Utd.pkm

If you notice, I didn't change a thing untill Manu U went to 4-2-4 where I changed to 4-4-2_Athletico_(11) -(Defensive Full Backs). Of course, there are other matches you might get wrong but with a little thought you could get it right. Funny thing I have also been paying a little attention to is the pre-match advice. I don't always listen but have experimented like this: playing away to Manchester City the report indicated that they struggled against a 4-1-3-2 formation. Normally I am playing the 4-4-2_set but in this case I thought I would try the 4-1-3-2_Dunga_(7), the weather was sunny so I gave it a shot. Played very well even though I lost 2-1, I was 1-0 up untill late in the game but my young and exciting squad couldn't hold on. It was a lot better then early on in the season where I was loosing by bigger margines away from home to the real big teams, including a 5-1 loss at Manchester United (had a too young/untested squad) although the match stats were not as bad as the scoreline.

In short, things are finally turning around. It took a while but the consistancy the last couple of months are finally paying off. I am still getting some games wrong (mentality/formation) but am starting to realise new aspects (tactically) that can give you the advantage. Battling formations with other formations can proove to be a good alternative/choice, so take a second or two before some matches and see the situations that you will encounter. Opposition pitch sizes are something I can also take into consideration, like playing narrow on narrow pitches, playing direct passing in wet weather and (if not facing a Giant Opponent) shorter passing in good weather (better when 'gelled'). Just give it a little thought & patience and it might pay-off (just like in this game)...

[philwood]

Loversleaper

I was hoping you could offer me some advice.

Im playing in the conference north with Blyth Spartans and im predicted to finish mid season so im looking at using the tactician style. Im doing fine at home with a combination of the hiddink and sir alex but im struggling away from home. When i am large underdogs i use the Allegri and that works well but im struggling for a tactic when im favourites (both large and short) and short underdogs.

Any reccomendations on what you would use on normal dry days.

Cheers

[Loversleaper]

Loversleaper

I was hoping you could offer me some advice.

Im playing in the conference north with Blyth Spartans and im predicted to finish mid season so im looking at using the tactician style. Im doing fine at home with a combination of the hiddink and sir alex but im struggling away from home. When i am large underdogs i use the Allegri and that works well but im struggling for a tactic when im favourites (both large and short) and short underdogs.

Any reccomendations on what you would use on normal dry days.

Cheers

In the lower leagues it might be a better idea to use Aguirre_(6) away from home. The narrow width + direct passing helps lesser teams connect with their passing. So, away as large favorite I suggest that you start out by using Athletico_(11) or if you have a good technical team then you could attempt Italy_(10) which is better for dry weather. Usually the most safe choice is to be more cautious away from home, but if you are large favorite and your opponent is not attacking you (opponents timewasting early in the match) then you might have to use a tactic like Ranieri_(13) which can be used in any weather. Sometimes games situations that you have difficulties with, you might want to watch the game more on full just to see how the team is responding with the different frameworks. You need to 'get a feel' of your team and how strong it is, you might have try out some different approaches because playing away is a lot harder then playing at home. Usually it's best to play more defensive if you are only small favorite away and maybe change up to a Mentality framework of (10-11) during games if it is not exactly going your way...

[Loversleaper]

I know some people have had difficulties at times choosing tactics so I have restructured part of the thread. Part#5: Tactics, Playing The ME is the tactics (for download) with short descriptions of them. So, I have made a Part#6: Strategies, Playing The ME where I have categorized the tactics in a more understandable fashion so that Users can easier see what type of tactics could work for the next match. I am aware that there are quite a few tactics to choose from, but after I have categorised them in the different Mentality frameworks it has narrowed down the options and will narrow options even further once you choose which formation you perfer.

On top, I have the 5-4-1_Olexiy_(6) & the 4-1-3-2_Germany_(12) for download in the Part#5: Tactics section under the AlternativePack part. The Olexiy is definately worth a look.

This basically means that I have completed the entire thread. Don't worry about future patches changing much, the only thing we might have to do is readjust the Closing Down & Defensive Line settings a little. The only thing I might include (in one point in time) is what PPM's might compliment players (check Part#3: Player Instructions soon) to 'spice-up' the tactics giving them some interresting diversity when playing out a match on the ME or an odd tactic here or there that I might stumble upon.

But please, take a look at Part#6 in the thread: it should make the whole 'choosing tactic' process a lot easier to understand-

[TheMister]

LL, out of interest, at what point do you consider the transition from 'close odds/slight fav' to 'large odds/fav'?

I've normally used <= 7/2 and then => 4/1 but I now think that's too high and should use about 5/2?

[Loversleaper]

LL, out of interest, at what point do you consider the transition from 'close odds/slight fav' to 'large odds/fav'?

I've normally used <= 7/2 and then => 4/1 but I now think that's too high and should use about 5/2?

The pre-match odds always describe if you are large favorite or not (regardless of the odds-stat). As long as the indication is that you are larger favorite then close odds (including slight favorite) then you have to High Pressure the opponent especially at home. At home you should more use the tactics that have a higher closing down (17-18) compared to slight favorite where you might not press that high. Having said that, there are some expections that you need to take into consideration from time to time, for example:

Due to good result form for me (Watford) and poor result form for my opponent (Everton) caused my Relegation Battling team to be slight favorite. Looking realistically at my squad compared to Everton indicated that I could run onto problems if I over-commit, so I took the role of a slight underdog instead. I used 4-4-2_Sacchi_(14) for the match, but funnily enough I was large underdog in my next match against Fulham so had to go back to playing the Relegation Battling role. That is the hard part about being/becomming a Tactician Manager, you have to make good assumptions to really overachieve...

[melogroovy]

Newcastle are 7-1-0 in the first 8 games. My only loss was in the League Cup when I lost away to Barnsley.

Just a little update from where I was a week ago. Newcastle are now 24-5-2 scored 68 and allowed 22. Andy Carroll, who was set up as TM has gone into slump not having scored in 9 games. I need to tweak his settings. Still, he's scored 16 so far. Ameobi plays in the other striker position and has scored 23. Lovenkrands has chipped in 9. I still have corners on mixed, so I'm not scoring alot on the far post corner set up. The vast majority of my scoring is from open play, which is impressive. Also the defense remains tight, especially since Taylor and Coloccini have a tendency to draw yellows and both have already served one and two game bans as well as each getting a couple of reds. Tamas Kadar and Seyfo Soley have performed well in the system. Tim Krul has been my keeper and twice he and the club have kept the sheet clean for nearly 6 complete games.

As Newcastle has been re-ranked, I've started the away games with the Italy tactics but switch to SirAlex after about 20 minutes with good results. In a tight game, I switch to the Allegri late, to shut the door. If I'm winning by more than 2 goals I don't switch. All in all, great results and I can't wait to work with them in the Premier.

Thanks again, Loversleaper.

[TheMister]

The pre-match odds always describe if you are large favorite or not (regardless of the odds-stat). As long as the indication is that you are larger favorite then close odds (including slight favorite) then you have to High Pressure the opponent especially at home. At home you should more use the tactics that have a higher closing down (17-18) compared to slight favorite where you might not press that high. Having said that, there are some expections that you need to take into consideration from time to time, for example

Thank you.

So I'll be starting a new save and just using the 442 set for a while, whilst I choose my own formation and tactics and test that in an old save now and again. Hopefully by the time I've got it ready my squad will have settled and should handle the transition OK.

In the end I decided to alter the 442s to a wide diamond, which I planned as the starting point for my club (Eintracht Frankfurt); Once/if we become a major side I'll be making a slight change to that though.

In the first season, with no major signings at all, we are 6th with 3 games to go. With a media prediction of 12th (which I think is quite accurate) we should finish between 5th and 7th. So I'd call that a good performance

I'll post fixtures and the table when I'm finished, and mention a couple of minor changes I made too. Thanks again.

[Loversleaper]

TheMister: I didn't really have success with the wide diamond formation. Somehow the players in the center of the park was not positioned correctly to stop long shots from the oponent so I dropped the idea. The narrow diamond of the other hand can work quite well with the right settings, but haven't ventured far enough to actually put them up for download. I could have missed something somewhere so if you do make them work I hope that you could share because it might be a question of the team getting used to the set-up...

Melogroovey: when your striker stops scoring it is usually due to his moral, he could be complencent or overconfident. If he scores a lot and then stops you have to hang him out in the press, if he doesn't pick up his performances it is usually because he can't handle the pressure in the long run and this indicates that you should be looking to replace him. Some players cut it and others don't, to have players on the top most of the season and the ones that 'relish the big matches' are the ones I try to find. Next season in the EPL you have to start a lot more cautious then this season in the Championship and see how your form picks up through the season because you most likely will be going from a Relegation Battler to a Tactician Manager at one point. This is basically how I played with Watford:

Home as large underdog: 4-4-2_Athletico_(11) or 4-4-2_Italy_(10) depending on weather. If I started with the Italy due to good weather and it didn't create any chances then I would switch over to Athletico (direct passing) to see if it helped. Tested the 4-1-3-2_Geramny_(12) once where the pre-match odds indicated that my opponent struggled against this formation.

Home as slight favorite: against the really bottem teams I would use SirAlex_(15) and against the teams in the low middle-top middle mostly Sacchi_(14) - also my perferred choice if it was raining.

Home as slight underdog: Sacchi_(14)

Away: Aquirre_(6) or Allegri (6), & tested 4-1-3-2_Dunga_(7) a couple of times.

I think I actually only played SirAlex home against Stoke and Hull. I was clear favorite at home to West Brom (late in the season) but it was raining so I used the 4-4-2_Milan_(15). Had a real struggle in the start of the season due to basically having a whole new squad and it took a good 30 games before we played any good altough I did manage to keep myself a couple of spots above the Relegation zone. With two games left I am in 9th spot without the possiblilty of getting 8th place, but could easily drop to 12th if I loose the next two, but I am playing well lately (finally gelled) and am counting on at least three points - last game is away to Arsenal so...

Problem I have is I need to really work on the defence and bringing in a real goal scorer. I have a really young team and they have a lot of potential, but they swing too much to match ratings compared to established players, so I need to get a couple of these guys. Next season I wil be going for a European spot, and if I do things right it should be possible. But it seems as though you are doing exceptionally well so I think you will be able to adapt to the new situation very easily. Good luck in the EPL-

[TheMister]

TheMister: I didn't really have success with the wide diamond formation. Somehow the players in the center of the park was not postioned correctly to stop long shots from the oponent so I dropped the idea.

That is something I'll keep an eye on now.

The narrow diamond of the other hand can work quite well with the right settings, but haven't ventured far enough to actually put them up for download.

It's just a preferance of mine to play with wide players, even if they don't work particularly well :o it does keep a lot of pressure of my fullbacks however.

I could have missed something somewhere so if you do make them work I hope that you could share because it might be a question of the team getting used to the set-up...

The changes I made this season to all tactics were - reducing all long shots to rare, removing the free role on the striker, removing counter attack* where it was applied, adding tight marking to the DMC, and arranging my own set pieces.

Changes I may experiment with next season are reduced width, because the AI does this with the wide diamond; and making the AMC a playmaker with no forward runs, as I've noticed this has helped before. For the first season I just wanted to keep your tactics fairly intact to see how it worked out.

* The counter is just a piece of coding that puts all your players at their most attacking in certain circumstances and I find it gets the team a bit exposed.

[melogroovy]

Melogroovey: when your striker stops scoring it is usually due to his moral, he could be complencent or overconfident. If he scores a lot and then stops you have to hang him out in the press, if he doesn't pick up his performances it is usually because he can't handle the pressure in the long run and this indicates that you should be looking to replace him. Some players cut it and others don't, to have players on the top most of the season and the ones that 'relish the big matches' are the ones I try to find.

I sat him down for a couple of games. I don't expect him to be with Newcastle in the EPL but I'd like him to finish strong though, so I can get a good price for him. I want a more complete forward for his spot rather than a pure TM. The AI didn't deal well with the switch. I went from Carroll as a TM with Ameobi to Ameobi as a "complete" striker paired with Lovenkrands set up as a normal striker. Ameobi scored 4 in 7-2 rout and then Lovenkrands bagged 2 in a 4-1 victory.

Next season in the EPL you have to start a lot more cautious then this season in the Championship and see how your form picks up through the season because you most likely will be going from a Relegation Battler to a Tactician Manager at one point. This is basically how I played with Watford:

Home as large underdog: 4-4-2_Athletico_(11) or 4-4-2_Italy_(10) depending on weather. If I started with the Italy due to good weather and it didn't create any chances then I would switch over to Athletico (direct passing) to see if it helped. Tested the 4-1-3-2_Geramny_(12) once where the pre-match odds indicated that my opponent struggled against this formation.

Home as slight favorite: against the really bottem teams I would use SirAlex_(15) and against the teams in the low middle-top middle mostly Sacchi_(14) - also my perferred choice if it was raining.

Home as slight underdog: Sacchi_(14)

Away: Aquirre_(6) or Allegri (6), & tested 4-1-3-2_Dunga_(7) a couple of times.

I think I actually only played SirAlex home against Stoke and Hull. I was clear favorite at home to West Brom (late in the season) but it was raining so I used the 4-4-2_Milan_(15). Had a real struggle in the start of the season due to basically having a whole new squad and it took a good 30 games before we played any good altough I did manage to keep myself a couple of spots above the Relegation zone. With two games left I am in 9th spot without the possiblilty of getting 8th place, but could easily drop to 12th if I loose the next two, but I am playing well lately (finally gelled) and am counting on at least three points - last game is away to Arsenal so...

Problem I have is I need to really work on the defence and bringing in a real goal scorer. I have a really young team but they have a lot of potential, but they swing too much to match ratings compared to established players, so I need to get a couple of these guys. Next season I wil be going for a European spot, and if I do things right it should be possible. But it seems as though you are doing exceptionally well so I think you will be able to adapt to the new situation very easily. Good luck in the EPL-

I'll be in pretty good shape with Newcastle, I think, and may stay with Tactician rather than start with Relegation Battler. Here's my thoughts: I expect to have a solid back four with Enrique, Coloccini, Taylor and a RB I'm due to bring in (Jean Calve). I'll have Jonas at LW and will bring in a more creative MC (perhaps Deco on a free) to pair with Guthrie. I may or may not upgrade Ryan Taylor at RW. It's quite possible that I'll have two new strikers but may be able to use Ameobi as the 2nd striker. So, I'm looking at 3, maybe 4 positions that will be changed. I don't plan to make really radical changes so perhaps the gelling will relatively quick. If I change 5 positions (2 ST, creative MC, RW, RB) I may have to start with Relegation Battler to start. Otherwise, I have the talent to be a solid mid table squad, don't you think?

I'll let you know what I choose and how I get on. With 15 games to go in the Championship and in the clear by 17 points, I'm just grinding them out right now

[Loversleaper]

I sat him down for a couple of games. I don't expect him to be with Newcastle in the EPL but I'd like him to finish strong though, so I can get a good price for him. I want a more complete forward for his spot rather than a pure TM. The AI didn't deal well with the switch. I went from Carroll as a TM with Ameobi to Ameobi as a "complete" striker paired with Lovenkrands set up as a normal striker. Ameobi scored 4 in 7-2 rout and then Lovenkrands bagged 2 in a 4-1 victory.

I'll be in pretty good shape with Newcastle, I think, and may stay with Tactician rather than start with Relegation Battler. Here's my thoughts: I expect to have a solid back four with Enrique, Coloccini, Taylor and a RB I'm due to bring in (Jean Calve). I'll have Jonas at LW and will bring in a more creative MC (perhaps Deco on a free) to pair with Guthrie. I may or may not upgrade Ryan Taylor at RW. It's quite possible that I'll have two new strikers but may be able to use Ameobi as the 2nd striker. So, I'm looking at 3, maybe 4 positions that will be changed. I don't plan to make really radical changes so perhaps the gelling will relatively quick. If I change 5 positions (2 ST, creative MC, RW, RB) I may have to start with Relegation Battler to start. Otherwise, I have the talent to be a solid mid table squad, don't you think?

I'll let you know what I choose and how I get on. With 15 games to go in the Championship and in the clear by 17 points, I'm just grinding them out right now

I think you have a better shot than I had with Watford at securing a spot in the league that secures European competition. If you swap 5 places I think it could upset the balance of the team although it is necessary to make the change. You need to start to get/attract those players that really do the job, your team is exciting so I would use the transfers funds wisely. I think it is better to get 1 really good player rather than 2 semi good players. You will be getting money to spend in basically in every transfer window so you can build up a really strong team within a year or two with the right transfer policy. I think in the long run you will be looking to change out the defense as they do lack a little in some of the vital attribute stats that will bring your team up into the Master Class. Your priority, just quickly looking at the squad, is to buy a real class striker. If you can't get a creative midfielder that has that talent you need then it would be an idea to get a strong Central Midfielder type like M. Diarra (Real Madrid) for around 4-6 million pounds, Real sometimes even puts Gago on the transfer list after 1st season!

[woodphil]

I enjoy playing 442 (apart from when pre match advice tells me that the team do well against 442) and im doing well for most of the situations as a tactician manager. My squad is still gelling as i have 4 new loan players in and a couple of new transfers so im finding that when im favourite at home the 442 Sacchi (14) is working better than the 442 Sir Alex (14). I will play this way until my squad has gelled and then i suspect I will have to move up to 442 Sir Alex.

One area i am having trouble with is when im short underdogs away. I have tried the Allegri but I just seem to contain the opposition for a while and then concede, when i move up to Athletico for example I end up conceding again. I have also tried starting off with Italy or Benitez but I think this is too adventurous for this situation. The best results I have had are with the Ancellotti (8) but this isnt 442 so im looking for a tactic I can use that is in between Allegri and Italy.

Most of the situations are working well though, when your short favourites at home against teams that do well against 442 the Mourinho 41221 (13) works really well.

[Loversleaper]

I enjoy playing 442 (apart from when pre match advice tells me that the team do well against 442) and im doing well for most of the situations as a tactician manager. My squad is still gelling as i have 4 new loan players in and a couple of new transfers so im finding that when im favourite at home the 442 Sacchi (14) is working better than the 442 Sir Alex (14). I will play this way until my squad has gelled and then i suspect I will have to move up to 442 Sir Alex.

One area i am having trouble with is when im short underdogs away. I have tried the Allegri but I just seem to contain the opposition for a while and then concede, when i move up to Athletico for example I end up conceding again. I have also tried starting off with Italy or Benitez but I think this is too adventurous for this situation. The best results I have had are with the Ancellotti (8) but this isnt 442 so im looking for a tactic I can use that is in between Allegri and Italy.

Most of the situations are working well though, when your short favourites at home against teams that do well against 442 the Mourinho 41221 (13) works really well.

Just guessing, it seems that you have a team in a lower league (you mentioned loan players). When you start out with Athletico_(11) or Italy_(10) away from home as slight favorites, have you played the game all the way to the end? Sometimes it just a matter of the team adjusting or trying to gain control of the match, it might start out a little shakey but during the game you should take over. I have experienced that I don't really control the match (at times) untill the 2nd half where the opponent starts to wear out. If you have played a full game with these tactics, let's take a look at some of the match stats (don't bother with screen shots) and we can see what is basically going on. It is a little adventurous but should bring in the victory, even when I go down a goal in the first half, I have many times come back to win 2-1 without changing anything all match. It's more difficult to win away and usually when you play these type of tactics away as slight favorite you will experience high shooting games from both sides. The question is if you have the quality to shine through, but if you do go in front using the Athletico or Italy I would change to a more defensive tactic sometime in the second half. You have to throw caution into the wind at times to win away...

[woodphil]

Thanks for the reply.

I had a look at what you suggested and yes im playing with a lower league team. Often when I go a goal down I change the tactic but i stuck with it and on most occasions what you said was right. In the second half i got back into games and often got at least a point and often score a late winner, worked very well. I also tried using the 442 Benitez (10) and this seems to be a little more resiliant away from home than the Italy. Working well though.

Cheers

[Pires FmSerbia]

I have one question?.As you what would you prefer how playing 4-4-2 in FM 2010 with english club? Aston Villa etc who have a good wingers.

[melogroovy]

Update on where I am with this set. I just barely held on to win the Championship. Sheffield United went on a great run, Newcastle slumped hard and it went down to the final game. I had secured promotion with 3 games to go but winning the Championship was a matter of pride. Admittedly, I slumped because I rushed through the last 15 games, often not changing tactics to start the game (stayed with my altered version of SirAlex) and I paid. To me, this emphasized the importance of the few minutes to consider all the variables when choosing my tactic. It doesn't take long and unlike the last two versions, you can't trot out the same tactic game after game and be successful.

Anyways, here's my Newcastle squad for the first season in the EPL

GK: Benaglio, Jarstein

DL: Enrique, O'Halloran

DC: Coloccini, Jordan Loties

DC: S. Taylor, Tozer (Kadar out on loan)

DR: Jean Calve, R Taylor

ML: Huszti, Lovenkrands

MC: Deco, Abdeliz Barrada

MC: Guthrie, Ismaila N'diaye

MR: Jonas, Lua Lua

ST: Welliton, Ameobi

ST: Xisco, Ranger (Carroll out on loan)

Welliton was my big signing, 14.75M over 4 years. He's class. Benaglio came just before the season started and I paid 3.5M for him and had gotten 4.2M for Krul. Deco came on free. Huszti is an old favorite from previous versions of the game. This is a hold the fort kind of squad. Top flight talent didn't want to come yet but I think this squad can make a run at a Europe spot. I have 14M in hand for the January window.

I took your advice Loversleaper and have started out playing as a Relegation Battler. Actually, I make the decision to choose a tactic and then go one step lower. I feel SirAlex at home, I go with Hiddink. If I'm away and feel Italy, instead I go with Allegri.

I've won 0-1 at Wolves (Allegri), won 3-1 to Stoke (Hiddink) and then 0-1 at Sheff U (Allegri). The schedule is congested so I rested a lot of guys in my first LC game and won an ugly game 3-1 to an L2 squad (I forget, am at work as I type this). Unlike last season, I've made no alterations to your tactics as I'm not using a target man and have moved Jonas from the left wing back over to the right.

Anyways, the lesson I learned is that the selection of your tactic to start the game is of utmost importance with this version. The moment of consideration to consider venue, odds, weather and pitch size as well as form is critical as opposed to the previous two versions (I started with 08) where I could basically design one or two good tactics (home and away) and play an entire season with an occasional in game tweak. As I closed out the Championship season playing SirAlex almost exclusively, I was punished, had poor results and watched a flourishing squad's morale fall as the club stumbled to the finish line. As I opened this season, I committed to take the extra minute to consider all the variables before choosing my tactic and am off to a flying start. I don't expect to dominate the league but if I stick to your philosophy I should fare better than expected.

Once again, well done

[Loversleaper]

Anyways, the lesson I learned is that the selection of your tactic to start the game is of utmost importance with this version. The moment of consideration to consider venue, odds, weather and pitch size as well as form is critical as opposed to the previous two versions (I started with 08) where I could basically design one or two good tactics (home and away) and play an entire season with an occasional in game tweak. As I closed out the Championship season playing SirAlex almost exclusively, I was punished, had poor results and watched a flourishing squad's morale fall as the club stumbled to the finish line. As I opened this season, I committed to take the extra minute to consider all the variables before choosing my tactic and am off to a flying start. I don't expect to dominate the league but if I stick to your philosophy I should fare better than expected.

I took out this part of your post as there are a few interresting aspects that I think is important to emphasize. Good job on noticing these points because it is incredibly hard to describe these scenarios by simple typing, a debate/conversation can be more 'visual' as Gamers can compare with their own experiences. Starting tactics are the first most important aspect, approaching a game correctly should get you better results than worse ones and you basically want to do this over a longer periode of time. There are no guarentees in this world but knowing this aspect should help you over-perform in the long run, to get the most out of them it is wise to be able to know what to change and when (during games) if need be - this can help you get those last points as it can actually have a big impact in league standings especially in the EPL where you have a lot of tough opponents. I know you probably won't 'slag off' this season in the EPL as I predict you will be going through all three Manager Phases and experiencing a lot of transition phases. The singings you have made look very well thought out so I think your squad will quickly 'gel' -which is a very 'smart' move. I had a different scenario with Watford as I couldn't attract the same class of player so I had to sign a lot of young exciting players, the downside is that I am have a lot of diificulties to get results. Young and ungelled squads can take years to get any good but I had no other choice, it is basically impossible to get around this aspect of the game and I know that many people will find this incredibly annoying. That is why I have to 'praise' your transfer policy as this is more important than many realise...

Another thing that is very important to make the tactics work even better is to get the moral in the squad to the right level and being able to 'treat' the players correctly (individually). This really dots the "i" in the tactics as you could inspire players to greater performances, so on this note I highly recommend that, when one has time, to read Wolfsong's guide on team talks. I think this aspect could surprise many (I know I was-). If you want to really overperform you will really have to give this first season in the EPL a little extra attention and assess the squads (opponents) correctly, pre-match odds can trick you in the EPL due to the performing aspect (re-ranking). As a new squad in the league you will experience this more frequently then when you establish yourself in the EPL so scrappy wins are going to be welcome too, but having said all this - after reading your posts (and insights), there is no doubt in my mind that you will get it right & you are probably going to do better then my Watford side this season...

[melogroovy]

I took out this part of your post as there are a few interresting aspects that I think is important to emphasize. Good job on noticing these points because it is incredibly hard to describe these scenarios by simple typing, a debate/conversation can be more 'visual' as Gamers can compare with their own experiences. Starting tactics are the first most important aspect, approaching a game correctly should get you better results than worse ones and you basically want to do this over a longer periode of time. There are no guarentees in this world but knowing this aspect should help you over-perform in the long run, to get the most out of them it is wise to be able to know what to change and when (during games) if need be - this can help you get those last points as it can actually have a big impact in league standings especially in the EPL where you have a lot of tough opponents.

Yeah, the in game changes will be more important in the EPL because the opposing squads will have the quality to effectively carry out the AI managers wishes. In 09, typically I just would change the d line, tempo, passing, time wasting and perhaps width during a game but you have such a nice spread of philosophies in your tactics that I'm more likely to just switch entire tactics, to be honest. I've also downloaded a 4-1-3-2 and a 4-3-1-2 to give some different looks at times, as well.

I know you probably won't 'slag off' this season in the EPL as I predict you will be going through all three Manager Phases and experiencing a lot of transition phases. The singings you have made look very well thought out so I think your squad will quickly 'gel' -which is a very 'smart' move. I had a different scenario with Watford as I couldn't attract the same class of player so I had to sign a lot of young exciting players, the downside is that I am have a lot of diificulties to get results. Young and ungelled squads can take years to get any good but I had no other choice, it is basically impossible to get around this aspect of the game and I know that many people will find this incredibly annoying. That is why I have to 'praise' your transfer policy as this is more important than many realise...

I learned a good lesson last season. There is no "auto pilot" any more. As for this season my squad has a lot of solid mid 20ish players and the plan is to upgrade over the next couple of seasons as my reputation rises. I have a nice stash of hot prospects as well. Generally if they don't make the first squad they make decent, cheap rotation players or I sell them at a nice profit.

Another thing that is very important to make the tactics work even better is to get the moral in the squad to the right level and being able to 'treat' the players correctly (individually). This really dots the "i" in the tactics as you could inspire players to greater performances, so on this note I highly recommend that, when one has time, to read Wolfsong's guide on team talks. I think this aspect could surprise many (I know I was-). If you want to really overperform you will really have to give this first season in the EPL a little extra attention and assess the squads (opponents) correctly, pre-match odds can trick you in the EPL due to the performing aspect (re-ranking). As a new squad in the league you will experience this more frequently then when you establish yourself in the EPL so scrappy wins are going to be welcome too, but having said all this - after reading your posts (and insights), there is no doubt in my mind that you will get it right & you are probably going to do better then my Watford side this season...

I read Wolfsong's 08 guide and skimmed his new one. I try to handle morale the same way I would do it in real life and it seems to work out OK. I tend to stay positive and rarely get mad and that's to the whole team and only for effect (shake their cages a bit) If we win, 8.0+ get "delighted" and the top 3-4 7.0+ will get a "did well". I never go negative with an individual player, either during a team talk or in the press. I figure if a player isn't performing well either a) I'm not putting him in a position to succeed or b) he needs to sit. During the first week of every month, if the team hasn't played poorly, I praise players in the press (as opposed to waiting to be told to during a staff meeting). Players who have 7.0-7.2 rating in the last 5 games get a "pleased" and players 7.2+ get a "delighted". Keepers tend to get slighted in the ratings a bit so I take that into account. This aspect of the game is surprisingly well coded, IMO. The player interaction and the press conferences do have a tangible effect on both my squad and the opponents and that means I can often subtly affect the outcome which is really cool.

I must say that my plan, after seeing that a well constructed tactical set would work was to redesign a set myself rather than use yours for this EPL season. I've always preferred to make my own tactics but I've had so much fun with your set, why switch? If I use your guide as I have in the past I'm going to come up with something close to what you already have anyways Again, well done.

[Loversleaper]

That is something I'll keep an eye on now.

The changes I made this season to all tactics were - reducing all long shots to rare, removing the free role on the striker, removing counter attack* where it was applied, adding tight marking to the DMC, and arranging my own set pieces.

Changes I may experiment with next season are reduced width, because the AI does this with the wide diamond; and making the AMC a playmaker with no forward runs, as I've noticed this has helped before. For the first season I just wanted to keep your tactics fairly intact to see how it worked out.

TheMister: how did it turn out? I have tried some of the settings like Allegri_(6), Ancelotti_(8), Italy_(10), Brazil_(13) & Arsene_(18) with the 4-1-2-1-2(narrow diamond) with some pretty good results. The missing tactic (normal attacking) is the Argentina_(15) settings (*from FM09) that wasn't included in this season but if you want the settings I'll write them up on request. The trick is to make the two central midfielders 'hug touchline' which should make the formation appear more like the wide formation you had in mind. Hope it is going well for you...

I have one question?.As you what would you prefer how playing 4-4-2 in FM 2010 with english club? Aston Villa etc who have a good wingers.

Pires FmSerbia: Almost overlooked your post so sorry for the late reply (I was visiting a nation close to your name the last week). I don't ever really prefer one team over the next, teams usually need a 'make-over' no matter who you choose. I like the idea of Managing the 'Villans' and is something that has appealed to me in the past. If you are asking what type of tactics you would use if you choose to manage Aston Villa then I would definatly read the 4th & 5th post in the thread, as a Manager you (from the start of the game) are basically in the 'transition' phase between the Tactician & the Master Class- but start out as the Tactician and see how it goes from there. It might take some games before your opposition really sits back and plays high time-wasting/compact. I hope I am answering your question, if not please contact me. Thanks & good luck...

[TheMister]

TheMister: how did it turn out? I have tried some of the settings like Allegri_(6), Ancelotti_(8), Italy_(10), Brazil_(13) & Arsene_(18) with the 4-1-2-1-2(narrow diamond) with some pretty good results. The missing tactic (normal attacking) is the Argentina_(15) settings (*from FM09) that wasn't included in this season but if you want the settings I'll write them up on request. The trick is to make the two central midfielders 'hug touchline' which should make the formation appear more like the wide formation you had in mind. Hope it is going well for you...

I ended up 5th in the first season which was amazing. Then, with very few signings to disrupt harmony, it went TOTALLY pear shaped in season 2 and I got sacked (around christmas IIRC). I didn't make any changes at first, but when things weren't going well I thought it'd be a good time to try the tweaks I had in mind - but it didn't change anything.

Regarding the narrow diamond - I may give that a go in the future. I'm a bit disheartened at the moment and I'm just giving a few things a go. So I'll let you know if I want to try that mate.

[Loversleaper]

I ended up 5th in the first season which was amazing. Then, with very few signings to disrupt harmony, it went TOTALLY pear shaped in season 2 and I got sacked (around christmas IIRC). I didn't make any changes at first, but when things weren't going well I thought it'd be a good time to try the tweaks I had in mind - but it didn't change anything.

Regarding the narrow diamond - I may give that a go in the future. I'm a bit disheartened at the moment and I'm just giving a few things a go. So I'll let you know if I want to try that mate.

I thought that it might be the case, as I personally could never seem to be able/capable to get the wide diamond to function. The problem comes in the middle of the park where you can't (or have incredible difficulties) close down the oppositions midfielders getting plenty of longs shots or running straight through the defense, I simply couldn't get the settings to function where that space could be closed down. That's why, on the otherhand, the narrow diamond I think could work because the formation has players positioned close enough to actually close down this vital area. I haven't ventured too far in this area myself either and I just wanted to offer a helping hand, that's all...

[bigdirtyjames]

Loversleaper:

It's clear that you've put a bucketload of effort into this.

Excellent stuff - it's certainly explained some stuff to me - someone who doesn't get as much time to play around with tactics.

Thanks very much!

[Corkey]

If I wanted to use your 4-1-2-2-1 for a Hull team (1st Season), would I struggle?

[melogroovy]

Just want to relay a very satisfying moment. Round five of the EPL season and I have to play Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. I open with 442Aguirre and hope to keep it close and maybe scrape a draw. It's breezy and drizzly, too. Anelka keeps finding space and the Chelsea threat is worrying so I drop the d line a couple clicks to deep and reduce the width a couple of clicks and begin to fare a little better. Anelka disappears and my team is a little less on their heels and getting some chances to move forward so around the 35th I decide to go with 442Allegri because it's a little more adventurous offensively. I figure I may be able to catch Chelsea leaning too far forward.

It works and Chelsea, after nearly getting burned a few times, have to respect my advances. During injury time, Jonas scores off an IFK and we go into the half up 0-1. I switch back to 442Aguirre with the deeper, narrower settings to start the half (so I can weather the inevitable storm to start the 2nd half) and then switch back to 442Allegri around th 60th to keep Chelsea honest and maybe bag a 2nd goal. I don't score but the club gets some good chances, and after a couple of subs, I stay 442 Allegri but go deeper and narrower and close the game out. A very, very satisfying experience. The tactics do what I hope they would do.

Side note: my keeper Diego Benaglio was brilliant and was standing on his head. Chelsea were relentless and the defense was solid but Benaglio really shined. He had a final rating of 8.0. I don't ever recall a rating that high for a keeper (I think they get slighted in the ratings). I was also impressed with the total team defense, they worked really well as unit.

Anyone who is struggling needs to take a look at Loversleaper's tactics and give them a spin. Good stuff. Thus far, I am a perfect 5-0-0 with Newcastle in their first season back in the EPL.

[Loversleaper]

Just want to relay a very satisfying moment. Round five of the EPL season and I have to play Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. I open with 442Aguirre and hope to keep it close and maybe scrape a draw. It's breezy and drizzly, too. Anelka keeps finding space and the Chelsea threat is worrying so I drop the d line a couple clicks to deep and reduce the width a couple of clicks and begin to fare a little better. Anelka disappears and my team is a little less on their heels and getting some chances to move forward so around the 35th I decide to go with 442Allegri because it's a little more adventurous offensively. I figure I may be able to catch Chelsea leaning too far forward.

It works and Chelsea, after nearly getting burned a few times, have to respect my advances. During injury time, Jonas scores off an IFK and we go into the half up 0-1. I switch back to 442Aguirre with the deeper, narrower settings to start the half (so I can weather the inevitable storm to start the 2nd half) and then switch back to 442Allegri around th 60th to keep Chelsea honest and maybe bag a 2nd goal. I don't score but the club gets some good chances, and after a couple of subs, I stay 442 Allegri but go deeper and narrower and close the game out. A very, very satisfying experience. The tactics do what I hope they would do.

Side note: my keeper Diego Benaglio was brilliant and was standing on his head. Chelsea were relentless and the defense was solid but Benaglio really shined. He had a final rating of 8.0. I don't ever recall a rating that high for a keeper (I think they get slighted in the ratings). I was also impressed with the total team defense, they worked really well as unit.

Anyone who is struggling needs to take a look at Loversleaper's tactics and give them a spin. Good stuff. Thus far, I am a perfect 5-0-0 with Newcastle in their first season back in the EPL.

I experimented as well with the Closing Down (10) and Defensive Line (5), which I illustrated in the 4-2-3-1_Halilhodzic_(4) tactic (in the AlternativePack), so I imagine that you can also attempt this with the other defensive tactics. I have as well seen this can work well (in the right circumstances) and am very glad to see that you really are starting to (visually) understand how the ME works and change what is necessary if need be. When you gain control over this aspect, although it might not make you win everytime, at least you feel like you can battle/match the AI opponent. Good input you come with here, melogroovy, thank you -...

P.S. Just noticed that I hit a 'ton' on the forums...

[Corkey]

I'll ask here, rather than the other thread.

Really struggling to find any form of success on FM 10, wither Classic or TC. I don't like 4-4-2s, yet I love 4-3-3s .

Could I do well with Hull, If I were to use your 4-3-3 set?

[Loversleaper]

I'll ask here, rather than the other thread.

Really struggling to find any form of success on FM 10, wither Classic or TC. I don't like 4-4-2s, yet I love 4-3-3s .

Could I do well with Hull, If I were to use your 4-3-3 set?

To answer that question you have to look objectively and weigh up the scenario: the 4-3-3_tactics (4-1-2-2-1) included in the thread are quite 'high class' in nature, meaning they are a little adventurous. Most of the tactics are wide in Width for example, this ideology is not always the best choice for a 'Relegation Battler'. I am not saying it is not possible, but I would characterise it as being very daring, you might have to make some execptional sigings and/or have a lot of patience as it is one of the harder tactics for players to adjust to. Usually you need that 'one-man-army' type of striker and your full backs need a certain quality. I think if you really want to play as a Relegation Battler and you perfer the mentioned formation then you can do it two ways:

#1: play the tactics as they are.

#2: you can use the settings from some of the other tactics (mainly the ones that use the more narrow Width settings). Some of the settings from other tactics can easily fit into other formations (with a little thought), so definatly an option.

I have a description of what tactics would suit for the different occasions in Post#5 (see: Part 6: strategies, playing the ME) in this thread so I would look there and do a little research -

[melogroovy]

Quick update on my Newcastle save: I'm 13-5-3 good for 3rd in the EPL. I've had my share of injuries and I've gone through re-ranking, I think. I'm playing as a Tactician now rather than as a Relegation Battler. Struggling slightly on the road as I've drawn the last two games away at Sheffield U. 1-1 (they equalized late) and 0-0 away at Hull. At Hull the weather was awful and I made the error I think that led to the draw. I've really loved the way the 442 Allegri has worked. It's solid defensively and it's very decisive and clinical when it counters. I believe as a Tactician away to Rele Battler in bad weather I should have started with Athletico but I chose Allegri instead. I gave momentum over to Hull who began to take a more attacking stance about 20 minutes in. I was never able to wrest control of the game from them and they had the better games although we drew.

Still I'm in good shape, much better than I expected. I've had a fair share of injuries (and some suspensions) but have leaned heavily on the midfield, especially Deco and Guthrie (Guthrie has been great in the right cm position).

I've been bounced from the League Cup in the quarters away and City 3-2 and lost the 3rd round of the FA Cup away at Spurs 1-2, so I have just the EPL to concentrate on. It's mid January and I've sold Ryan Taylor off for 5M and signed a stunning 17 yo regen ST by the name of Alexandre from Brazil. He'll join the club in July and could start next to Welliton right away.

[Loversleaper]

Quick update on my Newcastle save: I'm 13-5-3 good for 3rd in the EPL. I've had my share of injuries and I've gone through re-ranking, I think. I'm playing as a Tactician now rather than as a Relegation Battler. Struggling slightly on the road as I've drawn the last two games away at Sheffield U. 1-1 (they equalized late) and 0-0 away at Hull. At Hull the weather was awful and I made the error I think that led to the draw. I've really loved the way the 442 Allegri has worked. It's solid defensively and it's very decisive and clinical when it counters. I believe as a Tactician away to Rele Battler in bad weather I should have started with Athletico but I chose Allegri instead. I gave momentum over to Hull who began to take a more attacking stance about 20 minutes in. I was never able to wrest control of the game from them and they had the better games although we drew.

Still I'm in good shape, much better than I expected. I've had a fair share of injuries (and some suspensions) but have leaned heavily on the midfield, especially Deco and Guthrie (Guthrie has been great in the right cm position).

I've been bounced from the League Cup in the quarters away and City 3-2 and lost the 3rd round of the FA Cup away at Spurs 1-2, so I have just the EPL to concentrate on. It's mid January and I've sold Ryan Taylor off for 5M and signed a stunning 17 yo regen ST by the name of Alexandre from Brazil. He'll join the club in July and could start next to Welliton right away.

It is correct that you probably should have used the Athletico instead of Allegri in bad weather. In rainy weather I will always use the more Direct Passing tactics, the lowest on this slider would be (9) but prefer at least (12) if I can get away with it. Looking at your record (w-d-l), I would guess that you soon will be going into the transition phase to becomming a Master-Class manager. The best tactics for this is instance have been the 4-2-3-1_tactics, but if you want to use the 4-4-2 then I suggest:

At home: start using the Milan_(15) tactic in bad weather or Arsene_(18) in good weather. It might be a little shakey the first match or two (match-stats) but you should start to gain control afterwards. You might experience some difficulties in that your overall capability might have a hard time overpowering the AI capabilities due to you 'over-achieving' drastically and your squad might not be totally world class just yet. You might need a couple of class signings, young players can look incredibly exciting but might have some diffficulties to perform at the highest level - it might take a couple of seasons!

Away: Of course against the top teams you can still play more defensively and/or change to these type of tactics during games if you want to protect leads. I think that you will have to play Italy_(10) or Athletico_(11), depending on the weather, against many teams but against the very bottem opposition you might want to experiment with tactics that use a Mentality setting of (13), like the Ranieri_(13) which can be played in any weather. I am pretty sure that you will soon have to generally play more attacking away from home, sometimes it is a good idea to play a game or two on full to see how the type of oppponent you are playing against is reacting to the settings you are using, also when you change it will be easier to see (visually).

Getting out of the domestic cups can help you perform better in the league, as you will have higher fitness levels and most likely won't be distrupting too much of the team 'flow' by swapping out tired players. I like the aspect of how one stategically plays the season in FM10 and think it is quite well thought out by SI, so I think it was a good move on your part. I am doing similar to your record in season 3 with Watford, I am halfway through and playing more and more like a Master-Class manager - the only thing that is changing is the player stars are slowly dropping indicating that I need to start to go after established star players, and I am doing it gradually. Just managed to scrape 17m pounds to buy a Russian Left Winger and now my next project is going to be to get Sakho for my defense (don't know if it possible or not, he is interrested though). Managed to get Carlos Vela from Arsenal for aroung 4m pounds, so the team is getting better and better, I think it will be a season (next one) or two before I can thoroughly challenge the titel which would make this FM version the hardest one yet -