cinch Premiership Data discussion

And I see no heed whatsoever has been paid to the idea about letting us choose the goddamned strips teams wear. 

So another year of having to endure naff away strip choices in the SPL.

Followed by another year ... another year .... another year ... this game really needs a competitor. Maybe it will shake it out of its stupor.

1 minute ago, LaytonBhoy said:

I sometimes think that the "Scottish researchers" get their information from The Daily Record.

Anyone who has watched Ryan Kent and Liel Abada knows who the better footballer is, although some might not want to acknowledge the fact. I have never seen, and doubt I will ever see, a more hyped player than Kent for the rest of my life. 

He's out of contract in three months. Know who wanted him? Burnley. He's not rated south of the border where even mediocre players are paid fortunes. So I am consistently baffled as to how highly he's rated by certain people. Blind people maybe. 

Id say Kent has abilty, there is no doubt of that. He can be and has been a match winner. I would however question his mentality and he is also very inconsistent. But the boy has ability and maybe managed differently somehwere else he could thirve?

 

Cant really compare them attribute wise either,

Kent has the stepovers ect [often leading to nothing]  and can go past a man,

 

Abada is not the best attacking a full back one on one, hsi main forte is getting into goalscoring positions when the ball is on the other side of the park - attacking the back post etc.

 

totally different types of "wingers"

18 minutes ago, bigbeezer said:

Id say Kent has abilty, there is no doubt of that. He can be and has been a match winner. I would however question his mentality and he is also very inconsistent. But the boy has ability and maybe managed differently somehwere else he could thirve?

 

Cant really compare them attribute wise either,

Kent has the stepovers ect [often leading to nothing]  and can go past a man,

 

This - and this is shown perfectly by a hidden attribute.  

Regarding Kents mentality or determination or ability to perform under pressure, abada should have the opposite of those as he has came from a foreign land at 19 or 20 and due to squad size he was flung in and did not dissapoint with his early performances/goals return. Laterly he has found himself on the fringes but that is mainly due to Maeda's form after the World Cup which has been tremendous.

47 minutes ago, bigbeezer said:

Whats the best way to try to make a point when comparing one player v another?

 

do you need to provide videos of both? Stats are good but also can be misleading.  Just trying to find out how you work.

 

Cheers

We watch the players, every researcher we have watches a lot of football, but especially "their team".  We also have year long discussions on players, teams, managers ... you name it we probably discuss it.  

 

The problem you find though people compare CA, without looking behind the numbers, knowing the weightings each individual Attribute rates.  Not to pick on you (really not) but when you think of technical player, you've mentioned "technique attribute" but none of the others that make what you'd class important for a technical player (e.g First Touch, Passing etc.). 

 

Then you have all the hidden attributes that doesn't effect the raw CA number but effects the real in game CA performance...

On 24/02/2023 at 10:58, PigeonStrangler said:

Rangers have apparently signed talented youngster Thompson Ishaka. He's 18 so should be included into the winter updated database:

Hasn't been confirmed by the club yet. Rumours Thompson Ishaka and Francis Jacobs (Orange County) have signed. But can't do anything about it until confirmation.

Will be interesting to see if any of them are in the B Team squad on Saturday or the U19 cup match next Friday but hopefully will get some sort of confirmation soon.

2 hours ago, ATW said:

We watch the players, every researcher we have watches a lot of football, but especially "their team".  We also have year long discussions on players, teams, managers ... you name it we probably discuss it.  

 

The problem you find though people compare CA, without looking behind the numbers, knowing the weightings each individual Attribute rates.  Not to pick on you (really not) but when you think of technical player, you've mentioned "technique attribute" but none of the others that make what you'd class important for a technical player (e.g First Touch, Passing etc.). 

 

Then you have all the hidden attributes that doesn't effect the raw CA number but effects the real in game CA performance...

I find it difficult to believe that after over a year those discussions did not lead to anyone mentioning that Callum McGregor has played DMC for over a year comfortably, Kyogo has played one game on the left wing and players like Greg Taylor and Kevin Nisbet are pretty significantly underrated.  I can only assume that some changes were held back until the final Winter patch but if this is what we're left with until the next game then it's pretty disappointing. Another issue is managers preferred formations and play style, they seriously need looked at. 

 

11 hours ago, c0nn0r said:

I find it difficult to believe that after over a year those discussions did not lead to anyone mentioning that Callum McGregor has played DMC for over a year comfortably, Kyogo has played one game on the left wing and players like Greg Taylor and Kevin Nisbet are pretty significantly underrated.  I can only assume that some changes were held back until the final Winter patch but if this is what we're left with until the next game then it's pretty disappointing. Another issue is managers preferred formations and play style, they seriously need looked at. 

Which McGregor is in game... in fact he's the best in the league.  

 

You do understand what having an AML rating for a striker means? don't you?, Don't you?.  If not, that's may be an issue.

 

Go, on I will entertain you on a historcally 1 in 3 "pretty significantly underrated" Kevin Nisbet.  Where do you think the joint best striker in the Premiership outside the Old Firm (5th natural in league, and 8th overall) be "improved".  Or how about Greg Taylor who is looking at the overall package (I'd recommend you do that btw) is the 2nd best in the league.  

 

Floor is yours my friend.

Edited March 3, 2023 by ATW

14 hours ago, LaytonBhoy said:

I sometimes think that the "Scottish researchers" get their information from The Daily Record.

Anyone who has watched Ryan Kent and Liel Abada knows who the better footballer is, although some might not want to acknowledge the fact. I have never seen, and doubt I will ever see, a more hyped player than Kent for the rest of my life. 

You canny not love the irony of calling us clueless, while going on to demonstrate you don't know how the process works yourself.

Abada is the better footballer in the database, not by much, but he is. (And now the other side will come in to moan ). There's two very important physical attributes that automatically mean Kent's CA is going to be high (and funnily enough, it's the same two that boosted Maeda's CA and caused a big rammy between us all). Pace and acceleration. Those who don't like CA discussion, look away now. Give Abada Kent's 16/16 and he becomes a 139 player, better than Kent. Give Kent Abada's 15/14 and Kent becomes a 128 player, making Abada better. 

Now, you can argue if you want about Kent's 16/16 or Abada's 15/14, that's fair enough but it still doesn't change the fact that Abada is currently the better footballer in the database.

I'm not trying to be a smart-arse (despite my opening), I'm just trying to explain that its not just as simple anymore as to load up the editor as soon as the games out, look up CAs and get mad about them. The final CA is just a small final piece of the puzzle, what with every attribute weighted, every position now with a CA and weighting. It's why we every year, we constantly bang on about play a season first, see how things play out, as just going into the editor and pointing out numbers, is useless.

13 hours ago, c0nn0r said:

I find it difficult to believe that after over a year those discussions did not lead to anyone mentioning that Callum McGregor has played DMC for over a year comfortably, Kyogo has played one game on the left wing and players like Greg Taylor and Kevin Nisbet are pretty significantly underrated.  I can only assume that some changes were held back until the final Winter patch but if this is what we're left with until the next game then it's pretty disappointing. Another issue is managers preferred formations and play style, they seriously need looked at. 

Which McGregor can easily do in game, given that even with the 16, he's still rated as the best DM CA in the league. Granted, he could probably be pushed up to 18 for DM rating, so he'll play their more regularly for AI Celtic, but again, it doesn't change the fact he can already do what you're asking, as the change doesn't significantly alter his DM position CA. 

Nisbet and Taylor, with the greatest respect, is just shouting in the wind. There's nothing for us to go on there other than you think they should be higher, your opinion, not factual data error, where as our team has a different opinion. What attributes do we up? What do we lower? 

Kevin Nisbet, 115, rated the best striker in Scotland outside of the Old Firm (along with Shankland) in game, with already 15 finishing, 14 heading, 14 composure, anticipation 14, 12 off the ball. They're already very good attributes for a striker in Scotland, so what else do we up? We don't just force up his poorer attributes, to try and justify a higher CA. Millwall were in for him in the last window there, if he moved to Millwall with his current CA, he'd be in amongst their strikers who are also rated in the 114 to 118 bracket, which imo, is the level he'd be at if he went down south. He's got the PA to make him a fairly good Old Firm player and a star for a playoff to mid table English Championship side.

Greg Taylor 125CA (though attributes are 126) so 126 makes him the joint second best left back in Scotland (Yilmaz at 130 is currently an anomaly, as we don't just decimate another research teams work after 6 months, when we've not had a decent chance to see the player on the park ourselves). So he's already highly rated, what attributes do we up, without over powering him? What do we lower? Every attribute change has a knock on effect. Like ATW said, he's already a very good, overall package, left back in game, with a better consistency attribute than the two 126s beside him. Again it comes back to us saying play the game, see how players perform, don't just look at numbers in the editor.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Giro

-Dylan Levitt having better CA than Shankland and Nisbet is laughable. 

9 minutes ago, StevehFC said:

-Dylan Levitt having better CA than Shankland and Nisbet is laughable. 

Levitt currently has a CA of 0 compared to Nisbet and Shankland for striker.  Are you saying Nisbet and Shankland should be better rated at midfield than him?  Or are you comparing a brussel sprout with a steak?

Well let's use Iwata as an example instead.  Why on earth does Levitt have a similar CA to that of a player has who has just won J-League player of the year?   It's honestly laughable how bad Iwata and Kobayashi are considering one has just came off a season being the best player in a far better league than Scotland and the other has impressed enough in training that we felt comfortable enough to cut Jenz's loan short because Kobayashi had already overtook him in the pecking order.  Surely in that case Tomoki should be comfortable around 130 CA and 140 PA, with Koba around 120-125 CA and maybe 135 PA or -7 rather than the pathetic -6 he currently is.  I mean just looking at CB who are HG in Scotland, apparently Celtic would've been better off signing the likes of Robbie Deas, Stuart Findlay, Jason Kerr or Craig effing Halkett ffs.  

Likewise, Taylor has comfortable been the best fullback in the league for at least 12 months now, and I include players who have recently left like Bassey and Jura.  Also compare Ralston's performances for Scotland to that of Hickey and Paterson and it's laughable how far off Ralston is on current ability to those two, Ralston might not have been first choice for us but it hasn't stopped him getting plenty of game time and his numbers in terms of assists and goals are comparable to any full back in the league that doesn't get gifted a free penalty every week.

Also I know Maeda ain't the greatest technically, especially when compared to Jota/Haksa but they really should be a good bit better than they currently are.  And his improvement over the past 12 months in that aspect alone shows there's still plenty of room for growth.  

Josh Campbell probably deserved a decent boost for Hibs as well.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc

46 minutes ago, ATW said:

Levitt currently has a CA of 0 compared to Nisbet and Shankland for striker.  Are you saying Nisbet and Shankland should be better rated at midfield than him?  Or are you comparing a brussel sprout with a steak?

Just comparing CA stats with all players in the league. 

15 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

Well let's use Iwata as an example instead.  Why on earth does Levitt have a similar CA to that of a player has who has just won J-League player of the year?   It's honestly laughable how bad Iwata and Kobayashi are considering one has just came off a season being the best player in a far better league than Scotland 

Josh Campbell probably deserved a decent boost for Hibs as well.

 

I'm so glad you watched a lot of the J-League - and you put so much stock into POY awards, as I've said forever, in their primes Michael Higdon was a far superior striker to Leigh Griffiths (I haven't really).  

 

As for Campbell, he a very solid, if unspectacular player, who is right in the middle of the pack of decent Scottish Premiership players

2 minutes ago, StevehFC said:

Just comparing CA stats with all players in the league. 

Don't, please.  If you wanna question it, come with substance we can look at, but comparing two players, from diffetent positions is a no.

1 hour ago, ATW said:

I'm so glad you watched a lot of the J-League - and you put so much stock into POY awards, as I've said forever, in their primes Michael Higdon was a far superior striker to Leigh Griffiths (I haven't really).  

 

As for Campbell, he a very solid, if unspectacular player, who is right in the middle of the pack of decent Scottish Premiership players

 

You don't need to watch a lot of J-League to know Ange hasn't went back to Japan to sign a CB who is no better (and in FM's case is actually worse) than the likes of Deas, Findlay, Kerr or Halkett.  And then terminated the loan of a player who is now doing well in Germany.  

As for the Higden comment, why are you comparing a striker to that of a defensive mid?  That's like comparing a brussel sprout to a steak.....

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc

7 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

 

You don't need to watch a lot of J-League to know Ange hasn't went back to Japan to sign a CB who is no better (and in FM's case is actually worse) than the likes of Deas, Findlay, Kerr or Halkett.  And then terminated the loan of a player who is now doing well in Germany.  

As for the Higden comment, why are you comparing a striker to that of a defensive mid?  That's like comparing a brussel sprout to a steak.....

16 points better CA for same position is not a similar CA.  It's a whole level above.  Now learn what you're looking at when discussing CA and attributes when comparing players please.  A good start would be for the love of God reading @Giro's two posts on player ratings.  

 

Then we can maybe discuss it.

1 minute ago, ATW said:

16 points better CA for same position is not a similar CA.  It's a whole level above.  Now learn what you're looking at when discussing CA and attributes when comparing players please.  A good start would be for the love of God reading @Giro's two posts on player ratings.  

 

Then we can maybe discuss it.

Levitt is 117 CA, 140 PA.

Iwata is 119 CA, 131 PA.

What on earth are you talking about?

Just now, celtic_fc said:

Levitt is 117 CA, 140 PA.

Iwata is 119 CA, 131 PA.

What on earth are you talking about?

DMC - Levitt 104

DMC - Iwata - 120

 

Now... sit down and learn what you're looking at.

All I want to know is why is Andy Considine not rated as high as Lawrence Shankland?

Just now, ATW said:

DMC - Levitt 104

DMC - Iwata - 120

 

Now... sit down and learn what you're looking at.

Fair enough they don't play exactly the same position but do you really think those CA and PA numbers I posted above are anywhere close to reality?  If you insist I'll go find a suitable DMC in the league to compare to Iwata.

Okay that was hard, not. 

James Jeggo, 120 CA, 125 PA

Tomoki Iwata 119 CA 130 PA

Are you honestly arguing a guy a who is just off the back of winning J-League player of the year should have less CA than a 30 year old James effing Jeggo?  

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc

2 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

Fair enough they don't play exactly the same position but do you really think those CA and PA numbers I posted above are anywhere close to reality?  If you insist I'll go find a suitable DMC in the league to compare to Iwata.

But we don't just compare CA numbers as it means f-all. 

 

But tbh, No idea, he's only played 90 minutes of Scottish football - most of which against a Championship Side already losing 4-0.   

5 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

Okay that was hard, not. 

James Jeggo, 120 CA, 125 PA

Tomoki Iwata 119 CA 130 PA

Are you honestly arguing a guy a who is just off the back of winning J-League player of the year should have less CA than a 30 year old James effing Jeggo?  

 

Good to know you watched a lot of Pro-League football as well as J-League. 

9 minutes ago, ATW said:

But we don't just compare CA numbers as it means f-all. 

 

But tbh, No idea, he's only played 90 minutes of Scottish football - most of which against a Championship Side already losing 4-0.   

Well we can't go on attributes since most of them aren't filled in.  Surely how other J-League players have performed in Scotland would give you a solid base to work from.  Pretty much everything coming out of Lennoxtown is that they've got another Hatate/Maeda type bargain regardless of how much he has played so far. 

I notice your ignoring the Kobayashi comments, do those examples with him at least highlights how underrated he is in game?

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc