Still too many old players in squads, too few young 20 yrs old on a world class level

Hi there, I just wanted to add my own 10 year holiday game test with you too to compliment @abcdf 's findings. Here is an overview of the average squad age in the top 5 leagues and thier highest reputation teams:

This was run with these 5 countries loaded in full detail with a medium database.

Some bullet points:

- Loans of young players have improved

- Of the 19 teams above the average squad age increased by 2 years

- Of the 19 teams above there were only three players in their teens in the match day squads

- It seems players playing well into thier late 30s has decreased, but squads are still too old.

- National teams still have a issues where older players with high reputation get call ups over young players, ending up with aging National team squads

- Reputation is still too powerful and the AI is still not realistically developing and utilising young players

I am happy to upload the saved game if that helps.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Robioto

3 players aged less than 20 in the biggest 19 teams match squads. Nothing more to report.

I don't know if SI test something or this is intentional. How you can tell you are reviewing and improving this and came out with an update like this. Don't know how you can laugh at us at this way. 

Zaire Emery, Garnacho, Malo Gusto, Gavi, Álvaro Rodríguez, Camavinga, Rico Lewis, Bajcetic, Harvey Elliott, Musiala, Bynoe Gittens... Are impossible to generate by SI. It's a f* disgrace. I am speechless. 18 months. 18 MONTHS

@Neil Brock explain me why for the game it's impossible to generate this. I'm waiting. 18 months with the long term viability of the saves completely broken. Tell me why. 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by albertocerdeira.4

As we are here to show data... I'm coming

 

So, last week @Zachary Whytetold us that there would be changes, I told that to know if the issue is fixed it was as simple as simulate ten years and seeing how National Teams looks like... and I simulate until 2030 to see the biggest NT look like.

 

Let's take a look into Spain

2 regens generated into the first NT, let's analyse the players that were in the Spain NT in World Cup 2022 that in 2014 they weren't in the game...:

- Eric García

- Alejandro Balde

- Gavi

- Dani Olmo

- Ansu Fati

- Yeremy Pino

- Ferrán Torres

- Nico Williams

8 new players vs 2 players

So we can tell that FM has a 25% of the reality capacity to create new player able to play in the National Teams... but let's try with another team, Spain is a very young squad and can be better to try with another... for example, Brazil

4 new players... it's becoming better... let's analyse the players that were in the 2022 WC squad that in 2014 were 16 age old or less...

- Vinicius

- Rodrygo

- Martinelli

- Antony

 

Ok with Brazil... there are improvements, what we can say... let's try with another as Brazil back up were much older than spanish ones. Argentina would be a good pick

Argentina... 2 regens, let's compare with 2022 WC

 

- Romero

- Nehuén

- Nahuel

- Enzo

- Almada

- Exequiel 

- Julián Álvarez

 

Another case as Spain... FM gives Argentina a 70% less percentage of creating NT players, 7 in reality vs 2 in FM

Let's see France... this is gonna be fun

 

ONE DAMN PLAYER, let's compare with the players generate France since 2014...

 

- Koundé

- Saliba

- Konaté

- Disasi

- Tchouameni

- Camavinga

- Guendouzi

- Mbappé

- Kolo Muani

 

9 against 1!!!! Well done SI!!!! It's so realistic!!!!!!

 

Let's try with Portugal... hope it will be better:

 

4 players... lets compare with WC 2022...

- Diogo Costa

- Antonio Silva

- Dalot

- Vitinha

- Nunes

- Leao

- Joao Félix

- Gonçalo Ramos

 

8 vs 4... amazing, we are improving, FM has the capability of generate the 50% of the newgens Portugal does... let's end with England...

 

 

3 players... let's compare with raw reality...

- Ramsdale

- Trent

- Jude

- Gallagher

- Rice

- Mount

- Foden

- Saka

8 vs 3 to end... let's summarize

 

Spain: 8 vs 2

Brazil: 4 vs 4

Argentina: 7 vs 2

France: 9 vs 1

Portugal: 8 vs 4

England: 8 vs 4

 

Result: Reality 44 vs 19 for the reality, and I have to admit that the patch improves it significantly.

To summarize, in this 6 teams, where the first and second division were loaded, the game can only replicate the 43,18 % of the newgens that reality can generate. Count this with all the teams and think how a save in 2032 could look like... completely broken. 

With the other countries is worse, for example if you go to Serbia and Croatia there is not newgens... Serbia and Croatia, of course I have to accept that in those countries there are no new wonderkids...of course SI

The database I am using includes 13 countries and more than 20 playable leagues, so there's no excuse for this.

 

It's a known issue since October 2022 and it's so easy to analyse like I just did, so no more excuses please. The youth development is broken as never before 2022. For my part, I won't put any euro in your account until I see data here that it is solved, but I know that it won't have any consequence. Would like to think that maybe if we do enough noise SI will fix it... but it seems impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

1 ora fa, albertocerdeira.4 ha scritto:

As we are here to show data... I'm coming

 

So, last week @Zachary Whytetold us that there would be changes, I told that to know if the issue is fixed it was as simple as simulate ten years and seeing how National Teams looks like... and I simulate until 2030 to see the biggest NT look like.

 

Let's take a look into Spain

 

2 regens generated into the first NT, let's analyse the players that were in the Spain NT in World Cup 2022 that in 2014 they weren't in the game...:

- Eric García

- Alejandro Balde

- Gavi

- Dani Olmo

- Ansu Fati

- Yeremy Pino

- Ferrán Torres

- Nico Williams

8 new players vs 2 players

So we can tell that FM has a 25% of the reality capacity to create new player able to play in the National Teams... but let's try with another team, Spain is a very young squad and can be better to try with another... for example, Brazil

4 new players... it's becoming better... let's analyse the players that were in the 2022 WC squad that in 2014 were 16 age old or less...

- Vinicius

- Rodrygo

- Martinelli

- Antony

 

Ok with Brazil... there are improvements, what we can say... let's try with another as Brazil back up were much older than spanish ones. Argentina would be a good pick

Argentina... 2 regens, let's compare with 2022 WC

 

- Romero

- Nehuén

- Nahuel

- Enzo

- Almada

- Exequiel 

- Julián Álvarez

 

Another case as Spain... FM gives Argentina a 70% less percentage of creating NT players, 7 in reality vs 2 in FM

Let's see France... this is gonna be fun

 

ONE DAMN PLAYER, let's compare with the players generate France since 2014...

 

- Koundé

- Saliba

- Konaté

- Disasi

- Tchouameni

- Camavinga

- Guendouzi

- Mbappé

- Kolo Muani

 

9 against 1!!!! Well done SI!!!! It's so realistic!!!!!!

 

Let's try with Portugal... hope it will be better:

 

4 players... lets compare with WC 2022...

- Diogo Costa

- Antonio Silva

- Dalot

- Vitinha

- Nunes

- Leao

- Joao Félix

- Gonçalo Ramos

 

8 vs 4... amazing, we are improving, FM has the capability of generate the 50% of the newgens Portugal does... let's end with England...

 

 

3 players... let's compare with raw reality...

- Ramsdale

- Trent

- Jude

- Gallagher

- Rice

- Mount

- Foden

- Saka

8 vs 3 to end... let's summarize

 

Spain: 8 vs 2

Brazil: 4 vs 4

Argentina: 7 vs 2

France: 9 vs 1

Portugal: 8 vs 4

England: 8 vs 4

 

Result: Reality 44 vs 19 for the reality, and I have to admit that the patch improves it significantly.

To summarize, in this 6 teams, where the first and second division were loaded, the game can only replicate the 43,18 % of the newgens that reality can generate. Count this with all the teams and think how a save in 2032 could look like... completely broken. 

With the other countries is worse, for example if you go to Serbia and Croatia there is not newgens... Serbia and Croatia, of course I have to accept that in those countries there are no new wonderkids...of course SI

The database I am using includes 13 countries and more than 20 playable leagues, so there's no excuse for this.

 

It's a known issue since October 2022 and it's so easy to analyse like I just did, so no more excuses please. The youth development is broken as never before 2022. For my part, I won't put any euro in your account until I see data here that it is solved, but I know that it won't have any consequence. Would like to think that maybe if we do enough noise SI will fix it... but it seems impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, those results are actually quite depressing. The issue is not fixed and the game is still pretty broken.

Oh jesus...

Edited March 4, 2023 by abcdf

Depressing indeed. its still completely broken. 

9 hours ago, upthetoon said:

Depressing indeed. its still completely broken. 

It has put me off playing the game until it’s fixed. 

"I still cannot find any world class players under the age of 22-23. Like none. "

Can't say I'm surprised, as this matches my findings.  So, so disappointed that SI have allowed this situation to happen.  Those of us that have supported this franchise for years deserve better.

What are you defining as world class?  What CA and age?

From what I can see they are still leaning towards World Rep as a deciding factor, I've seen some youth players breaking into the first team at 18/19, but they were also 130/140's in CA as well. That was before the patch, the database I am working off of is pretty big, But we've also know for awhile now the computer doesn't develop young players as well as a human does, so in order to break into the first team national setup they would have to be extraordinary, which is rare.

This keeper has 2 years in the game, his CA/PA is 149/187, he was the starter this year for Athletico, he's the "best young" player in the game in that his 149 PA is higher than any other 17 y/o and below, 

And these are the three keepers ahead of him on the national team.  

Cos has 1 U21 Cap, which makes no sense to me because the U21 keepers aren't that good:

 

The best 18 year old is on senior squad, as a sub, but the starter is better than him, the worlds best 19 year old is starting for his country, same with the worlds best 20 year old.  But all those players started with a high CA.

Jellico

 

SI, please, we need an update about this issue. Think that there is a huge amount of data and feedback from the community, what was you were asking us for. Sorry for being insistent but there is a lot of people waiting to know if we have to give up with FM23 and wait for FM24. A sentence like "We don't think this is possible to solve for this year" would be enough, despite the disappointness it would be.

@Zachary Whyte any comments/udpates on this?

@Zachary Whyteplease can you let us know something? since we provided a ton of examples and the issues are still not fixed. What can we expect? Further updates for FM 23 or things will remain the same until next year? I think we at least deserve to know something

Edited March 21, 2023 by abcdf

Hello everyone, we really appreciate all the data you’ve gathered and presented. We're always looking to make improvements where we can, but at this stage of development further changes would require significant rewriting of code across multiple areas of the game.

So this is something that will need to be looked at for the future. The data you’ve helped collect is very much appreciated and will be valuable to us for future development.

19 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

Hello everyone, we really appreciate all the data you’ve gathered and presented. We're always looking to make improvements where we can, but at this stage of development further changes would require significant rewriting of code across multiple areas of the game.

So this is something that will need to be looked at for the future. The data you’ve helped collect is very much appreciated and will be valuable to us for future development.

Thanks for the update.  By future development, I hope you mean FM24.  Something like this affects EVERY long term game played in FM and is therefore absolutely crucial to get it right ASAP - far more important than any new features IMHO.

On 03/03/2023 at 22:18, Robioto said:

Hi there, I just wanted to add my own 10 year holiday game test with you too to compliment @abcdf 's findings. Here is an overview of the average squad age in the top 5 leagues and thier highest reputation teams:

This was run with these 5 countries loaded in full detail with a medium database.

Some bullet points:

- Loans of young players have improved

- Of the 19 teams above the average squad age increased by 2 years

- Of the 19 teams above there were only three players in their teens in the match day squads

- It seems players playing well into thier late 30s has decreased, but squads are still too old.

- National teams still have a issues where older players with high reputation get call ups over young players, ending up with aging National team squads

- Reputation is still too powerful and the AI is still not realistically developing and utilising young players

I am happy to upload the saved game if that helps.

 

For me same clubs June 2030 but with Daveincid's realism pack loaded, and begin playing version 23.2

Man City - 28

Liverpool - 27

Chelsea - 28

Arsenal - 29

Newcastle - 26

Spurs - 27

Man U - 26

PSG - 28

Monaco - 28

Lyon - 27

Dortmund - 24

Bayern - 26

AC Milan - 26

Inter Milan - 28

Napoli - 27

Juventus - 28

Barcelona - 27

Real Madrid - 27

Atletico Madrid - 29

Avg 27.1

So the problem seems a little less severe with Dave's pack, but it still exists, though when I get to 2032 it could be the same as yours.

I don't know if it's just me, but in FM23 young players just don't develop. Every time my youngsters increase in some attributes, they drop back a month later. It's so incredibly frustrating, never happened in other FMs but this one makes me hate playing it.

In every save, in every season, I get a couple of 160+ PA youngsters that I play CONSTANTLY. Like I had 4-5 regens at Barcelona that got play time ahead of first team players, plus world class coaching, plus state of the art facilities. And 3 seasons in, I check their attributes progress [Development->Progress->attribute change since all time] and every single one of them has dropped attributes in technicals, with the only increases being in mentals and physicals. Checked their PA using the editor, all 175 to 195.

Same issue a save later, where I'm playing a smaller team with great facilities, a policy of develping youngsters and a great academy. I get a golden generation, and I sign some very, very promising young players. Start them right away, great personalities, great coaches, constant minutes, yet every time i get some green arrows, they drop back down weeks later so 0 progress is made. For every 1 player that actually gets better, 5 others don't. 

This applies for AI clubs as well. Check  youth intakes for top clubs, and see world class potentials coming through. Check them 3 years later, almost no improvement whatsover to their attributes. 

So no wonder clubs and national teams have old and age-ing squads, when the young players are crap. The ones that play are much worse than the older players, so there is no point in selecting them.

 

I attached some examples of player development, and all of them are 170 PA minimum. You might say there are some players developing well, but consider that most of these are all already past 21 years old, and have only hit 120-135 CA 

Spoiler

Edited April 2, 2023 by Mitza

On 22/03/2023 at 15:19, Zachary Whyte said:

Hello everyone, we really appreciate all the data you’ve gathered and presented. We're always looking to make improvements where we can, but at this stage of development further changes would require significant rewriting of code across multiple areas of the game.

So this is something that will need to be looked at for the future. The data you’ve helped collect is very much appreciated and will be valuable to us for future development.

This is a major issue, it's been like it for two games now effectively making them worthless to me. So this confirms that FM2023 will never be fixed. Player/youth development is not a small thing that should just be brushed over.

Perhaps SI should spend more time on fixing what is already there in key modules, than spending time on yet more fluff features which add very little to the experience other than a few more screens, often just showing the same information in a different way.

Although I won't hold my breath, no competition and favourable reviews on Steam means pockets will be lined regardless of the quality and funtionality of the fundemental systems of the game... So marketing friendly fluff features will prosper. It's a sad state of affairs.

Sorry for the rant, but the direction FM has taken over the past decade is depressing as a long time fan, it's stagnant and the newer games are in many ways, fundemetally worse than games which came years before.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Robioto