Crouchy’s Highly Disciplined 4-4-1-1: Structural Solidity & Individual Imagination

Hello all.

This will be the first time I have ever uploaded a tactics set to the T&TT forum.

I’ve previously written threads about the way that I setup my tactics with the emphasis on elucidating the tactical options (see Simplicity, for instance). Such threads have usually been more about assisting or advising a reader to build or develop their own tactical set (in fact, this has been as much for my own sake as for other people).

This time, however, I will be providing a link to my tactical set. I’m uploading a set of 6 tactics for FM09 (and 6 tactics for FM08 for anyone who is still playing that version). I’ve been planning to do this for a long while and thought I might as well get on with it now.

I am uploading this set because some might find it interesting and learn something new. Others might not have the time to work on a tactic in-depth. Finally, I hope that I might get some feedback on the tactic too and thus improve my tactical knowledge and perspective as well.

I’m calling this tactical set ‘Crouchy’s Highly-disciplined 4-4-1-1: Structural Solidity & Individual Imagination’. Yes it is a bit of a pretentious title but then I love to pretend that I am a great tactician so forgive me if I get carried away. Delusions of grandeur. Anyway, the title is mostly because of the style of the tactics and my overall philosophy.

My tactical philosophy is to have a hard-working culture with the following highly-disciplined characteristics:

- Defensive players sticking to their roles and not taking risks.

- Wide players working extremely hard and tracking back.

- The whole side defending from the front by pressing in the opposition half.

- A rigid mentality system where each player knows their role in the team.

My whole tactical philosophy is holistic. I believe that the players should work collectively for the team but I also, cautiously, believe in the power of the individual as well. This is where my formation choice comes in.

As you all know, I’m a 4-4-2 man, however the tactic I am uploading is a 4-4-1-1. The 4-4-1-1 is a simple variation of the 4-4-2 in which the second attacker plays just behind the main striker but ahead of the midfield, i.e. in the hole. Here, the player is able to blur the distinction between midfield and attack. Here, the player can play between the lines, drift, roam and cause chaos in the opposition defence. This is the famous number 10 position. The Italians call it the ‘Trequartista’ position. The Argentineans call this player the ‘Enganche’. He is the playmaker, the star of the show, the player who could do anything at any time. If my system is a series of subsystems devoted to the whole, the AMC is the cog that doesn’t quite fit, the exception to the rule, the player who will break with the system and provide that little bit of magic.

I'm very much a fan of the ‘Trequartista’/’Enganche’ player. I believe that having a creative focal point for attacks enables a side to play great football. Absolutely essential in this 4-4-1-1, in an attacking sense, will be this attacking midfielder. He will be the most creative player in the side and will operate on a free role.

So, the overall tactical philosophy for this set is hard-work, efficiency, practicality and team-work. However, before you all think I’m a boring football manager, this will be balanced out by the cautious encouragement of individual talent, with my attacking midfielder the focal point of the team’s attacking play. The AMC breaks the disciplined structure of this tactic and provides the poetry, colour and imagination.

I’m afraid I’m not going to just give you the links and leave you to it. Oh no. First of all, I’m going to talk about the method behind the tactics set that I am uploading. If you are really that impatient, then I’m sure you will skip to the bottom and click ‘download’, but if you hang around you might find it interesting. Well, I did say might.

Now, first of all, don’t be put off that there are 6 tactics! In reality, you will probably end up only using one or two of them over the course of the season. Also, two of them are for special situations (Defend and All-out-attack).

The tactics are as follows:

1) Defend – a specialist tactic which is all about hanging on to a lead or hoping for a 0-0. Very tight and compact, this tactic is designed to frustrate your opponent. You will rarely need start a game with this tactic as it is more a tool for the last fifteen minutes when holding on to a lead. .

2) Balanced Counter – a fairly balanced tactic, which is all about keeping it tight and maybe grabbing a quick goal on the break. Probably the ideal default tactic for away games (for most teams, anyway).

3) Balanced - all about getting the right measure between attack and defend. This is a good tactic for starting games where you are unsure of your approach. You can then see how things are progressing and make changes if necessary.

4) Attack – this is all about getting on top and creating lots of chances. Probably the default choice for most home games (again, for most sides anyway).

5) Control – this tactic is for dominating games, keeping the ball, patiently probing and playing great football against poor and very defensive sides.

6) All-out-attack – it’s the last minute and you need a goal. This is your very own 4-2-4.

(Note: Defend is 4-4-2 and All-out-attack is 4-2-4. The other tactics are 4-4-1-1.)

The more defensive tactics in this set focus on structure, efficiency, cautious play and discipline. The attacking ones tend to involve more attacking fluidity and encourage players to ‘break’ the structure a little more often.

It is my hope that these ‘default’ tactics are sort of ‘plug and play’ although you are free to make some changes if you would like to tweak them to suit your team. I won’t be responsible for any poor results or sackings if you do, however!

I should also note here that set-pieces have been completely personalised. I don’t have the energy to go into it here, but you should find that they are solid defensively and hopefully you will get some goals from the attacking set-pieces as well.

Right, so now for the technical information. I’m going to be fairly brief but if you want more information then you will probably find the answers in my ‘Simplicity’ thread.

Mentalities: I’ve made these tactics ‘rule of one’ because that’s how I was using this 4-4-1-1 system in FM08 (from which I have adapted it to FM09). The rule of one is, in WWFan’s words, for the manager who is ‘fastidious about tactics and expects each of his players to fulfil a specific function’. This suits my definition as I want a highly-disciplined tactic and team. However, my rule of one has a slight twist. I have altered it for my own conception of certain player roles within the overall team.

In particular, my fullbacks are set to be slightly more adventurous in their mindset, while my defensive-minded central midfielder will be more cautious, sit deeper and tend to ‘sweep up’ in front of the back four. The attack-minded central midfielder is given a more attacking mindset than the other midfielders (expect the AMC). His adventurous passes will provide a lot of assists and he will also chip in with some goals due to his ambitious long range shots.

Up front we have a creator-goalscorer partnership. The mentality for the AMC should see him sit in space and contribute to the build up. His game is all about playing killer passes and adventurous through-balls. His high creative freedom and free roles means that he has the autonomy to break with the team unit and to do the unexpected. His mixed forward runs should see him get into the box sometimes and score goals too. He should provide a high number of key passes when at his best and he will be the one to generally make things happen.

Finally, the lone striker will lead the line and is given the most attacking mindset. His job is to hold up play in key positions or to run at the defence and, of course, his most important contribution will be putting the ball in the back of the net!

Creative freedom: My defensive players all have low creative freedom across the tactics. I want a highly organised and efficient approach at the back with all players following my instructions to the letter. The wide players and one central midfielder will be given some creative freedom, which gets greater as the tactics become more adventurous (so low in defend up to ‘much’ in Control, for instance). The main candidate for creative freedom is the AMC who will have fairly high creative freedom across the tactics. This fits with my idea of the AMC as the ‘cog that doesn’t quite fit’ and ‘the exception to the rule’.

Tempo & passing: Tempo is normal across most of the tactics apart from Defend where it is slow to waste time and All-out-attack where it is fast to get things moving with some urgency. I find normal tempo to be just the right level for my highly-disciplined and efficient approach. It gives players some time on the ball but, at the same time, allows them to move it at a reasonable pace. The passing is shorter for the more attacking tactics and becomes more expansive for the more defensive ones that rely on quick breaks and longer passes.

Closing down & marking: Closing down is heavy for the wide players and the forward across the tactics because I want my highly-disciplined side to defend from the front. Marking is zonal for all tactics except Defend where I want my players to pick up and stay tight to their man and not give the opposition any space whatsoever (very effective when facing the 4-2-4). In the more defensive tactics, the marking edges towards tighter, zonal marking. In the more attacking tactics, the marking edges towards looser, zonal marking.

Tackling: I just tend to leave on normal and sometimes use ‘hard tackling’ OIs as recommended by the assistant.

Forward runs: Most players are on mixed runs as I want the team to stay tight as unit and attack together to be a disciplined and effective unit. Defensive players on rarely. Wide players make forward runs often across the tactics. Fullbacks make more forward runs in more attacking tactics and rarely make runs in defensive ones.

Run with ball: Essentially just given to the wide players and the line striker. Varied slightly across the frameworks, i.e. how attacking/defensive (see note for through balls).

Long shots: Just the more attack-minded MC.

Through balls: These are varied across the different frameworks. More attacking tactics take more risks and therefore have more through-balls. More defensive tactics play far fewer through-balls.

Cross ball: Wide players and fullbacks. Varied slightly across the frameworks (see note above).

Cross from: Mainly altered for the wide players. Changes from deep, mixed or byline logically depending on the framework (i.e. how attacking/defensive).

Cross aim: Mixed for all.

Free role: AMC has free role across the tactics, apart from Counter and Defend where I want him to be more disciplined and stay in position.

Hold the ball: Defensive-minded MC and the lone striker hold the ball up across the tactics.

So, how do you apply these tactics? Well, I fundamentally believe in reading scout reports and reacting to the information. One of the key things I am looking for is whether the opposition team is defensive, attacking or just normal. However, you must also use common sense when choosing your approach. Sometimes, you will need a more cautious approach than the scout report might indicate. Other times, you will need to be more attacking and assertive. You will need to judge the situation using all of the information available to you but you should get the hang about what works quickly. I also believe in watching the match highlights carefully to see how the opponent appears to be playing (Are they playing a lot of forward passes? Are they getting forward quickly? Are they playing wide? What are their fullbacks doing? Etc. etc. etc. and so on). I advise against tweaking too often, but when something is going wrong, ask yourself why and look for clues! As a general comment, I have found that being more adventurous at home and more cautious away is the key to success in FM09.

I have tried to make a tactic without too many extremes and a tactic that can be applied to various teams at different levels, so hopefully this will work well with whoever you are managing.

Anything else? Well, I recommend a highly creative player in the AMC slot, who has high passing, creativity and flair especially. I also recommend picking a lone striker who has a good mix of attributes across the board, particularly dribbling, strength, pace, jumping, off the ball and finishing of course! Other players in the side should be hard-working and have excellent team work, determination and work rate stats. This is especially true of the wide players. I will post up some detailed preferred attributes for the players in this system in another post.

So that’s it. I hope some of you will try the tactics and report back.

Let me know if you have any problems or suggestions and good luck.

The tactics:

EDIT (29-05-09) NEW FM09 SET (with additional 4-4-2 bonus set. Great offer, buy now! ) - http://files.filefront.com/13822936

FM09 set – http://files.filefront.com/13687182

FM08 set – http://files.filefront.com/13687179

(Credits should go to WWFan – his guides have always helped me to convert my ideas into FM terms this tactic set owes a clear debt to his theories.)

Yours faithfully,

C.

EDIT (28-05-09) - Please see this post - http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=3279859&postcount=102 - for simple adjustments to change this 4-4-1-1 into a 4-4-2 and also for some minor adjustments you might like to make to the tactics set.

Ideal attributes for players in the 4-4-1-1:

Goalkeepers: Handling, agility, jumping, reflex, strength, decisions, aerial ability, command of area, concentration, bravery and anticipation.

Centre backs: Positioning, jumping, tackling, marking, aggression, strength, bravery, heading, anticipation, pace and acceleration.

Fullbacks: Positioning, work rate, teamwork, stamina, decisions, crossing, dribbling, tackling, pace, acceleration.

Holding Centre midfielder: Tackling, strength, aggression, marking, stamina, work rate, teamwork, decisions, passing, determination, creativity.

Creative Centre midfielder: Decisions, creativity, passing, off the ball, technique, finishing, work rate, stamina, teamwork, flair, long shots.

Wide midfielders: Crossing, dribbling, pace, acceleration, balance, technique, passing, creativity, work rate, team work, off the ball.

Creator AM: Decisions, creativity, passing, off the ball, technique, finishing, work rate, stamina, teamwork, flair, run with the ball, pace, acceleration.

Lone Striker: Finishing, off the ball, composure, pace, acceleration, anticipation, technique, aggression, strength, jumping, heading, creativity, flair, passing, teamwork, balance, first touch.

(All players in the side should ideally be hard-working and have excellent team work, determination and work rate stats).

Nice presentation:thup:

Thanks.

Fantastic presentation Crouchaldinho!!

one quick question can you play any sort of striker up front, ie fast/technical striker or a strong/aerial striker? I know you have listed the attributes needed but most strikers don't all have those skills.

Corkey - I'm generally looking for a decent mix of attributes as I said above. However, at clubs where I haven't had much in the way of resources, I have tried out quick strikers and target men type strikers with good success in most cases. I think pace can be important as is strength. Then again, jumping is good to, because as a lone striker he will tend to contend a fair few balls in the air. So, I guess my answer is, give it a shot and see how you get on. You can always make some minor adjustments if you feel it is necessary.

C.

Glad you're back (as if you were ever away!) and hopefully FM09 is firmly back off the shelf.

What's interesting here is that whilst I've moved away from a 4-4-1-1 (which is my favorite formation) and back to a 4-4-2, you've gone in the opposite direction.

Nice work though here and I'll definately be downloading to have a peek.

Hi Crouchaldinho.

Great Presentation and I will give the set a go with my Portsmouth side in the CCC. I've just taken over them and I'm expected to take them straight back to the Prem and have a media prediction of 1st place.

I love your logic and reasoning behind the tactic set and can't wait to try it. My only concern is that I've never seen a tactic yet that has been able to get a consitently good rating out of an AMC, but if Van Der Vaart can't in this league then I don't know who can!

I'll let you know how I'm doing after my first half dozen games of the season, first game is away to Cardiff. Here goes....

One thing I want to ask is when having 'hold up ball' ticked for a lone striker, does this stop him running onto through balls? Or is this more linked to helping out in the build up to attacking plays?

Glad you're back (as if you were ever away!) and hopefully FM09 is firmly back off the shelf.

That's the trouble with being an FM addict. I'll always be back for more!

Unfortunately, FM09 will be on the shelf most of the time due to some of the issues I have with the game. But I guess I will be dusting it off occasionally for a quick FM fix.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

I love your logic and reasoning behind the tactic set and can't wait to try it. My only concern is that I've never seen a tactic yet that has been able to get a consitently good rating out of an AMC, but if Van Der Vaart can't in this league then I don't know who can!

I'll be honest and say that I don't think I've seen an AMC with really great ratings in FM09. It got better in the last patch but there still seems to be an issue. However, in actual match stats, I have seen the AMC making lots of key passes during games and playing well statistically. Plenty of assists too and a few goals if you have the right kind of player. So I think the rating can be misleading in this respect. In other words, he may be playing really well but the match rating might not be quite what you would expect for that level of performance.

I'll let you know how I'm doing after my first half dozen games of the season, first game is away to Cardiff. Here goes....

Good luck.

One thing I want to ask is when having 'hold up ball' ticked for a lone striker, does this stop him running onto through balls? Or is this more linked to helping out in the build up to attacking plays?

The second option.

Hold up the ball just means that he will look to put his foot on the ball and hold it if the situation calls for it. It is something that comes into action when he receives the ball as a possible option he will be encouraged to undertake if he decides it is a good idea. So, yes, he will still get into attacking positions.

C.

Great presenation, so I thought the tactic deserved a try for that if nothing else

i've played 3 games so far, a 1-1 away draw against West brom, followed by a 2-0 home win against Sparta Prague the a 3-0 home win against Fulham. Against west brom I played the majority of the game using the control version. I went 1-0 behind and it wasn't until I switched to the attack version that we looked like getting something out of the game.

The following 2 games I started with the attack version, and completely controlled both games. During both matches I had a brief spell using the control version, and again we looked dodgy. The opposition were able to come at us much more, and we all know in Fm the AI only needs one chance compared to our 20. Maybe in the future in different circumstances this version will work and come in handy, we'll see. Hulk is my main striker, he hasnt got much in the way of work rate and teamwork, yet he's scored in each of the 3 games. looks like a tactic that will get strikers scoring. The AMC has had pretty poor ratings, but whenever I try a new tactic I always watch the first 5 or 6 matches in full, and I have been happy enough with his involvement.

We'll see how the next few games pan out and I'll let you know probably tomorrow, looking good so far though

EDIT: Hulk and my keeper have both been injured in training and will miss my next game away to unbeaten Man City, so we'll see what this tactic can now do in a much more difficult situation.

Hey Smokeeeey - Control is mainly for when you are huge favourites playing against a really small side. You'll probably mainly want to use the Attack version for most games unless big favourites. I use it in conjunction with the team talk 'relax the win will come'. Sometimes I will also use Control when the opposition has gone down to 10 men to break them down.

Other than that, sounds like a good start.

C.

Just wondering since the goalkeeper is on one mentality in all the sets does it get the goalkeeper isolated from team?Or you wanted the keeper to be Ultra defensive minded in all the set?

I've finished my first 6 games using the tactic set and here are my results:

Motherwell Vs Portsmouth (Pre Season)

Result: 1-1

Verdict: I started the game with the balanced option and thought I would take it from there. Early doors looked shakey and Motherwell soon got on top and scored just before half time, after some sloppy defending from my right back. 2nd half I went with the attacking option in search of the equaliser and started to dominate possesion without creating to many chances. With 15 mins to go a stray pass enabled my full back to steal in and run 25 yards unchallanged and slot passed the keeper. Since it was a friendly I opted to play the last 10 mins with the All Out Attack option, this yeilded two clear cut chances for both sides, none of which were taken.

Cardiff City Vs Portsmouth (Championship)

Result: 3-0

Verdict: The pre match odds had us as slight underdogs, so I kept faith with the balanced system and found myself under pressure from the off. Just as I was about to switch my tactics to the balanced counter I found myself 1-0 after conceading a penalty and now facing an uphill battle. I proceeded with the change, feeling Cardiff would come at me looking for a 2nd goal and I would hope to nick one on the break. To some extent it worked. We had more possesion and created one very good chance, but it wasn't to be and I found myself 1-0 down at the break. I kept faith with the balanced counter tactic and started the 2nd half brightly, having a succession of corners that eventually led to me hitting the bar. Disaster struck moments later when I found myself 2-0 down after they scored from a corner. At this point I changed to the Attack version and made a double substition to freshen things up a bit. It had little to no effect as Cardiff re-established a strong foothold in the game and their dominance finally told when after 72 mins I found myself 3-0 and looking at defeat on the opening day of the season. The final whistle blew, not before Cardiff had three more chances that really should have found the back of the net. On another day it could have been a lot worse than 3-0.

Torquay Vs Portsmouth (League Cup Rnd 1)

Result: 0-3

Verdict: Going into this game as strong favourites against a newly promoted League Two side Torquay, I opted to start the game with the control option. It paid dividens almost immeiatley as my AMC scored after just 2 mins. Just 14 mins later it was two nil and I was in cruise control. Checking the stats after just over half an hour it showed that I had a staggering 76% possesion. This told 9 mins later as I scored what turned out to be my last goal of the half. At half time I made a triple substition and brought on some of my kids (roughly League One/Two standard) and changed the tactic to Attack. The 2nd half seen Torquay see a lot more of the ball without doing much with it. I still had the better of the chances and should have had at least one more after my ST missed a one on one with their keeper. By full time Torquay had pulled back the possesion to 41% to 59% in my favour.

Leicester Vs Portsmouth(Championship)

Result: 1-4

Verdict: The pre match odds were again fairly even, but this time I opted to start the match with the control tactic for the first 10 mins with the intention springing a tactical suprise. To my joy it paid off big time and I found myself 1-0 up after just 3 mins on the clock, my AMC scoring a wonderful goal from the edge of the area. I stuck with it and carved two more chances before Leicester went and scored an equaliser with their first attack of the game after 21 mins. Before I had chance to really evaluate my options I was 2-1 up after a neat through ball from the AMC found my ST and he had the easiest of tap ins with the GK stranded. I then changed the tactic to Attack and the match again became a 50/50 event, with both sides creating some half decent chances. My AMC then capped of a wonderful team move to score a great goal and after 36 mins I was 3-1 and crusing. Half time came and I stuck with the Attack option. Leicester came back into the game in terms of possesion but were hardly creating anything, but on the other hand neither were we. After a scare at around the 70 min mark, where they should have scored, I opted for the counter balanced option and looked on with joy as I proceeded to take the sting out of my opponents attacks and after 84 mins, scored a very good goal on the counter which was finished of by my left back.

Portmouth Vs Watford (Championship)

Result: 0-0

Verdict: Not much to tell really. I started of as comfatable favourites and so opted for the Attack option. Througout the match I enjoyed the majority of possesion (60%-40%) but I never looked like scoring. Watford created the only clear cut chance of the game after the hour mark, but thankfully wasted it. After 70 mins I went to the control option and although this led to a few more shots, they were never really troubling the Watford rearguard. I finished the match with 61% possesion and had 9 shot on goal to Watfords 10. My shots on target read 1 to Watfords 2 and as I've already mentioned Watford had the only Clear Cut Chance of the game.

Portsmouth Vs Southampton (League Cup Rnd 2)

Result: 1-0

Verdict: Again I started the match with the Attack option after being touted as decent favourites for the match. Southampton can fell hard done by as I stole a win in this local derby. But for some solid defeaning (the only real positive) the outcome would have been different. The first was a non event, with both teams having a few shot from distance and sharing the possesion equally. After an encouraging team talk at half time, we started brightly and got a goal that we just about deserved after a strong 15 mins period. I was hoping we could kick on from there but Southampton, stifled all of our build up play and constantly started to hit us on the break. Although they never really threatend our goal, I feel a stronger side would have punished our lazy build up play and go the equaliser. Match Stats at full time read: 53% possesion for me, 6 shots on goal, with just 2 on target and 2 clear cut chances. Southampton had 10 shots on goal with just 3 shots on target and no clear cut chances.

Overall: I'm undecided. The Control tactic seems to work really well and against similar or weaker opposition you can dominate them, but it is dogey now and again against the counter attack. The Attack version yields little in the way of decent oppotunities and the build up often looks slow and sluggish. If your AMC, is marked out of the game or just has a stinker, it often leaves the ST isolated upfront on his own. The counter balance seems to work okay, but as a side that is expected to win most of the games I play it doesn't offer to much when other sides are playing in the exact same way, i.e sitting back and waiting to counter. I think overall, the set is not bad and with a bit of tweaking could become really good. The number one issue that needs addressing IMO is how isolated the ST becomes in the Attack tactic. The AMC needs more runners for him to find space and it might be worth having the MCa having fwrd runs set to often with run w/ball pushed up to mixed.

Just wondering since the goalkeeper is on one mentality in all the sets does it get the goalkeeper isolated from team?Or you wanted the keeper to be Ultra defensive minded in all the set?

I haven't seen it make any difference really so I've just kept the keeper on highly defensive mentality.

Cardiff City Vs Portsmouth (Championship)

Result: 3-0

Verdict: The pre match odds had us as slight underdogs, so I kept faith with the balanced system and found myself under pressure from the off.

I advise against using pre-match odds to decide upon your approach.

Personally, I would be reading scout reports, thinking about player quality and looking at the opposition during the match (as per opening post).

I would most likely have been more cautious in this game and selected the balanced counter system as I have found that being more conservative away can be key to doing well in FM09.

Overall: I'm undecided. The Control tactic seems to work really well and against similar or weaker opposition you can dominate them, but it is dogey now and again against the counter attack.

Control tactic should actually be very strong against the counter attack because the defence sits deeper and is easily able to nullify the threat of a quick counter.

What you might be seeing is the opposition getting possession in your half and then creating a chance through the amount of space they have. This may well happen against strong sides, which is why I tend to recommend it for playing against weaker teams.

The Attack version yields little in the way of decent oppotunities and the build up often looks slow and sluggish. If your AMC, is marked out of the game or just has a stinker, it often leaves the ST isolated upfront on his own.

I haven't seen that when using Attack in my save. I usually end up creating a plethora of chances.

Your point about the AMC is noted though and this is one of the problems with an 'enganche' type tactic.

However, I have some responses to this:

1) First of all, you could try focusing the passing down the flanks if your AMC is having a poor game. This will involve the wide players far more often and may help.

2) Secondly, the AMC is key to the tactic and if you have someone exceptional in this role, who has excellent movement, then you will rarely see him get marked out of the game, as he will get involved in play all over the pitch.

3) I tend to have a few options for this position on the pitch and sometimes rotate. If I see him having a poor game, I will sub him if things haven't improved by the 60 minute mark (or possibly at half-time if I am really struggling). This can often totally change the game in my favour. I do the same with the lone striker.

4) Finally, if you feel that the lone striker is getting isolated or not seeing enough of the ball, this could be a sign that you are not approaching the game in the right way and that your attacking thread is being nullified due to you being not attacking enough, or even not defensive enough. In the attacking tactics, certainly, the mentality gap between the MC, AMC, MR/ML, is not big enough to cause a problem and he should always have players in support.

The counter balance seems to work okay, but as a side that is expected to win most of the games I play it doesn't offer to much when other sides are playing in the exact same way, i.e sitting back and waiting to counter.

Well, the answer to this is don't use it in this circumstance then.

As I said in the opening post, you must work on getting the approach right or you will suffer as a result.

I think overall, the set is not bad and with a bit of tweaking could become really good.

In terms of the comment regarding forward runs, the emphasis is on steady build up with players sticking together as a unit and passing the ball well. I find that the MC is much more likely to provide key passes and assists with mixed runs. Otherwise, he tends rather to vacate the midfield. For attacking tactics, especially, I recommend less forward runs so that the players are able to move the ball around more and so that they aren't getting forward too often. Also, don't forget that the MC is on a higher mentality than the rest of the midfield (including the wide players) and he should still get forward and ahead of play regularly.

Further to this, I will quote from SFraser's thread, which you can find here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=102567

How many players of Football Manager think that a successful and well constructed attacking tactic requires a lot of high mentalities, lots of running and shooting, and lots of forward runs?

[...]

Less is More.

Modern football shows us that less is more. [...] You need to create chances but before you can create chances you need to create space, and to create space against a packed defence you need to keep the ball, pass the ball and move around. You need cool heads, calm mentalities and composed instructions.

[...]

You want players to move around, not rush forward with or without the ball. You want the ball given to your best passers, your best decision makers, and you want everyone else to offer a pass, keep the ball and pass it back.

I totally agree with that.

Anyway, I think you've done pretty well, apart from the Cardiff game (a clear anomaly) where I felt you might have been a bit more cautious (the key to winning away games in 09 in my opinion).

Your record (of competitive games) is: p4, w3, d1, l1, f8, a4, pts 10.

I'd say that's not a bad record at all considering you've just taken over the club.

I'd give it a bit more time before making up your mind, especially for team gelling purposes. I usually find that my players don't find their feet until at least 'good' and only really start playing consistently at 'strong'.

My record from a recent save with Liverpool using this tactic (team only on a good level of understanding):

p15, w12, d2, l1, f29, a4.

Notice the particularly impressive defensive record, which is what I pride myself on.

Finally, thank you very much for taking the time to feedback about the tactic. Much appreciated.

C.

In terms of the comment regarding forward runs, the emphasis is on steady build up with players sticking together as a unit and passing the ball well. I find that the MC is much more likely to provide key passes and assists with mixed runs. Otherwise, he tends rather to vacate the midfield. For attacking tactics, especially, I recommend less forward runs so that the players are able to move the ball around more and so that they aren't getting forward too often. Also, don't forget that the MC is on a higher mentality than the rest of the midfield (including the wide players) and he should still get forward and ahead of play regularly.

Those are points I would agree with. I tend to view FWR Often as necessary in more defensive mentality tactics whereas they can be counter-productive in offensive mentality setups, but it will depend upon the directness of your play.

Cheers for comments SFraser. Have appreciated your recent thread and agreed with your comments regarding this.

C.

Apparently over 100 people have downloaded this tactic but there hasn't been a lot of discussion about it.

I've gone back to FM09 a little bit, only playing very occasionally on a Liverpool save (due my personal issues with the lower leagues and problems with slowness on my laptop).

Anyway, here is a screenshot of a particularly pleasing result: http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7066/manutd12liverpool.jpg

Very pleased with a MoM performance from Riquelme who I signed to play as 'enganche'/'trequartista'.

He made 7 key passes over all playing behind Torres and also scored a goal.

As the scout report said that United were playing defensively and on the break, I decided to be a bit more adventurous than I would normally be away from home. So I started with Balanced.

Went down 1-0 early on due to an error from Agger. Kept faith and Torres pulled one back before half-time.

Then Riquelme got the winner in the second-half. I switched to Balanced Counter to protect the lead and then, in the last ten minutes, went to Defend.

It was a highly disciplined and efficient performance and it was won due to some great defending and some moments of magic from my AMC.

Still haven't got the hang of team talks in 09 so I'm mostly letting the assistant do them.

But anyway, just thought I would share a recent success I've had with this tactic set. I'm not playing 09 very much due to problems I outlined in my 'on the shelf' thread but I sometimes come back for a quick go on this save.

How are the rest of you getting on? Anyone enjoying this tactic set and having success?

C.

I just downloaded these last night, you dont know how happy I was to see that you've finally released a set Crouchy:D

You couldn't of done it at a more perfect time for me as well, I'm currently managing Crewe, first season in the Premiership, things had been going bad, I was 5 points from safety with 7 games to go, I switched to your tactics and my results were:

Crewe 0-2 Liverpool (Used balence counter all game, never looked like scoring, but it was against Liverpool so I couldnt really expect much)

Bolton 0-1 Crewe (Used control and it was unbelievable, dominated the game, not many chances but still won:D)

Crewe 2-2 Man City (Started with balance counter, went 1 down so switched to attack and the game ended 2-2, good result)

Stoke 0-2 Crewe (Used control all game, Stoke were never in the game, huge result)

Crewe 1-0 West Brom (Decided to stick with control, switched to attack late on, another huge result)

Tottenham 1-0 Crewe (Started with balenced, they were all over me, switched to counter and they scored, switched to control and we started playing football and looked like scoring)

Crewe 2-0 Blackburn (Played with control all game, they never looked like scoring and we had a couple of chances and put them away)

Though its early days for me with this tactic the potential is definatly there, I just need to buy some players that are capable of playing at this level, my centre backs are Championship standard, my strikers can't score and I definatly need a quality AMC. Compared to a lot of other tactics on this forum I dont get as many shots, but the shots I do have are alot more effective than with other tactics (where the shots are coming from). I'd definatly say that so far the Control has been the best version for me. Im going to use this set all next season.

Cheers for saving me from relegation Crouchy:D

Though its early days for me with this tactic the potential is definatly there, I just need to buy some players that are capable of playing at this level, my centre backs are Championship standard, my strikers can't score and I definatly need a quality AMC.

Glad to see you managed to escape from relegation BobMUFC08.

Interesting that you had the most success with control, as I tend to use that mostly at home against big opposition.

I never use Balanced Counter at home. I'm usually more adventurous and I probably would have gone with Balanced against Man City, but you got a result so that's good. For Tottenham away, I would have used Balanced Counter from the start. Other than that, it looks like you've done really well.

Your record was: p7, w4, d1, l2, f8, a5, pts13.

That's very near the usual target I set myself (that is, with a good team) of an average of 2 points a game.

As you say, sounds like you need to spend wisely in the summer break. Improve the defence a little bit and you'll be keeping plenty of clean sheets. The AMC position is really key to getting this set working well and you definitely need some quality here as well as a decent lone striker to score plenty of goals.

I would offer caution regarding the Balanced tactic. I tend to save this for home matches against teams of excellent quality, or in some away matches where I feel adventurous against a fairly big opponent. Balanced is also a good tool to use when in a comfortable lead and you just want to tighten things up and see out the game while still remaining a threat in attacking situations.

Attack is my default choice at home and Balanced Counter my default choice away. Control, I use rarely, unless I'm up against a side who I feel are very poor and are playing very defensively. It's important to protect your leads late on in games with Defend.

Getting team talks right is the hardest part of the game for me and when I play poorly with this tactics set, I usually find out that it is because I have said the wrong thing and got a bad reaction! I'm useless at team talks in this game but I can usually minimise damage and hopefully turn things around with some good subs. For this reason, I try to have some good backups for key positions. I find that the wide players can tend to get tired due to the amount of work I ask them to do, so this is a key position for good backups to have on the bench.

Compared to a lot of other tactics on this forum I dont get as many shots, but the shots I do have are alot more effective than with other tactics (where the shots are coming from).

The set prioritises discipline and defensive stability over attacking flair, so that is the reason for this. It is all about efficiency and hopefully this is reflected in the low shots to goals ratio that you are seeing. I hope for quality rather than quantity.

The set tends to give me an awesome defensive record at the cost of scoring a lot of goals. That's not to say that you won't score plenty and dominate teams but you're more likely to keep a clean sheet and win by a narrower margin. That's why it's 'highly disciplined'.

I have been averaging around 2 goals a game and conceding an average of 0.3 goals per match on my Liverpool save.

Cheers for saving me from relegation Crouchy:D

Thanks for the feedback Bob.

C.

Hello again "C", I've downloaded your set. I have been using a 4-2-3-1 set from the "Wizard". However, after nine league games my record is P9 W1 D1 L7 GF 3 GA 14 pts pos 20th. I feel that all of my problems are concerned with what I said on the other "channel". Plus responding correctly to my ass. man's comments on our passing. I am wondering whether or not that the "Wizards" tactics are really meant for top teams. I shall give peter-evo my feedback shortly. Kind regards.

Sorry you're not having any luck with the 'wizard' tactics. I guess part of the trouble might be that they aren't exactly made for FM09.

Good luck with my set. What I suggest you do is to just start off with 'attack' at home and 'balanced counter' away. Of course, read the scout reports and adjust, but where the opposition is playing a standard/balanced approach you'll be following the home and away pattern above.

For now, don't tweak (unless switching between the tactics) and don't worry too much about assistant comments. Just try to get a good team gelling rating (good or above) and strengthen your team if necessary. Let's see if you can get your confidence back as I feel quite confident you can do well with this set.

C.

Sorry you're not having any luck with the 'wizard' tactics. I guess part of the trouble might be that they aren't exactly made for FM09.

Good luck with my set. What I suggest you do is to just start off with 'attack' at home and 'balanced counter' away. Of course, read the scout reports and adjust, but where the opposition is playing a standard/balanced approach you'll be following the home and away pattern above.

For now, don't tweak (unless switching between the tactics) and don't worry too much about assistant comments. Just try to get a good team gelling rating (good or above) and strengthen your team if necessary. Let's see if you can get your confidence back as I feel quite confident you can do well with this set.

C.

Thanks "C". My thoughts about the "Wizard", are that they may be better suited to top teams and for FM online. I have posted my feed back accordingly. I shall restart a new game with your 4-4-1-1 set. See you after the tenth league game. Kind regards.

Good luck Oescus. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Who will you be starting with? Try to make sure you have a good AMC to play 'enganche'/'trequartista'

C.

Good luck Oescus. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Who will you be starting with? Try to make sure you have a good AMC to play 'enganche'/'trequartista'

C.

Hull City! I'll need to find one because Bullard, Geovanni, Marney and Barmby are not up to it. A good example of Geovanni, especially and Cousin in general was to be witnessed last night v Aston Villa. In fact, out of the whole bunch only Turner looked the part. I really need to look for a GK, A striker and a Good amc. I am also trying to make the squad an all British one. I don't make life easy, do I? Kind regards.

No, you don't Oescus!

Well, let me know how you get on and best of luck!

C.

oescus - If there's any way to test and kill a tactic, it's with Hull City

You're more than welcome not to test one of mine hah!

Don't kill my tactic Oescus.

heathxxx and "C", Well aren't you red faced!!! I've just played my first league match, away to Man. City. We won 4-1!! No we didn't, we lost 0-2. But you were impressed for a minute, what! We will not be relagated!! Oh! ye of little whatever....... Kind regards.

I did get excited for a minute Oescus!

Which tactic did you use? Hopefully you will have better luck in your next game.

The key at this early stage is getting the team gelling to at least 'good' and then, hopefully, things should pick up performance wise.

C.

I'm giving this a go with Man City, I'll report back later.

Good luck JoeCFC.

Oescus - I had a quick go with Hull City last night to see if I could offer some advice or lend a hand.

Loaded it up with small database just Premier League. Went on holiday through the pre-season friendlies. Didn't buy any new players. Just using their real life squad.

The immediate problem I note is that Hull have extremely low team gelling straight away.

The bad news is that you just need to play through it, try to pick up some points, not let morale drop too much and then hope to get to 'good' team gelling as soon as possible. I advise trying to keep the first team as consistent as possible as I believe this tends to speed up the gelling time.

What I have found regarding team gelling is that performances are very inconsistent to begin with, it is also harder to motivate your squad and I believe that too much tactical tweaking can be also be problematic. My advice is to be as consistent as possible.

Away matches are very tough and the AI can often change their tactic a fair bit. Best thing to do is to watch these matches on 'extended' and watch closely to see what the opposition are doing.

Anyway, my competitive record last night using these tactics and WWFan's guidance on team talks was:

P8, w3, d2, l3, f10, a12, pts 11.

I've been frustrated on a couple of occasions by very unlucky results where I did enough to get a win or draw and just didn't quite get the result, particularly in an away game at Middlesboro' where I was 1-0 and really should have won only to concede and end up drawing the game. But that's the nature of football. Another example was a 3-2 away defeat to Portsmouth, where I really should have come away with a point at least!

My best result has probably been a 1-0 win over Spurs, with Geovanni grabbing the only goal. The performance deserved a lot more though (more possession, more shots and 4 clear cut chances!)

Geovanni has done well in the AM slot. 8 games, 2 goals, 1 assist and 2 MoMs.

Eight games in, the team still have yet to develop any kind of understanding. They aren't even blending well yet and I haven't even made a signing. So it could just be that the team are a bit flaky.

I have a theory about this because the same is true of St. Albans City in terms of their team gelling on FM09. I think it is down to the amount of new signings made as the FM database records the date of all real life signings. I imagine Hull made a whole bunch of signings in the summer before the Premier League kicked off. St. Albans also brought in a lot of new players. Compare this to a team like Liverpool, who remained fairly consistent, and who achieve a good level of team gelling quite quickly in FM09.

So I believe this is why you have problems with results initially. If you combine low team gelling with too much tweaking and low morale, it is a recipe for disaster and is difficult to recover from.

My advice is to remain consistent in your approach. Don't expect too much from the first 15 games or so, just try to pick up as many points as you can. Don't worry about the tactics too much, just try to remain consistent. Suggest 'Attack' at home and 'Counter' away.

I think you will be able to pull away a little bit when the team gelling gets better and you will be able to experiment a bit more. Personally, I have noticed a huge difference when reaching a 'good' understanding in team gelling. Things often start coming together then and I think you should be able to have a good enough home record to stay up and do well.

Hope some of that helps.

C.

"C", Thanks for putting in the time and effort to assist me. It really is appreciated. I have spent all of today reading through reams of saved tactics from all over. I didn't realise just how much stuff I had accumulated. I have started up the save game that I am playing using your tactics set. Restarting the game I am now able to play the two saves in parallel. The games will therefore play the same teams each week using the two separate saves. I hope that I have made that clear. For my tactics I have made up a new set using a 4-4-1-1 system, so as to try to keep both games as much alike as I can. Here are my team settings for the tactics set. I wish that I could do screenshots, it would be so much easier for everyone.

Defensive. Ment. = 5/6. CF. = 9. pass. = 10. tmpo. = 5/6. wdth. = 5/5. cl dn. = 5/6. TW. = 15. def line. = 5/6 and tackling is on normal.

Standard. Ment. = 10. CF. = 10. pass. = 8. tmpo. = 8. wdth. = 10. cl dn. = 10. TW. = 10. def line. = 10. and tackling is on normal.

Attack. Ment. = 15. CF. = 10. pass. = 10. tmpo. = 10. wdth. = 15. cl dn. = 15. Tw. = 5. def line. = 15 and tackling is on normal.

I am never sure whether tempo, width, closing down and defensive line should be exactly the same or not, in the defensive tactic. The eight for passing I found from one of wwfan's old tactics, sometimes I put it up to nine. I think that in the standard tactic, at least, the team's passing seems to be better. I have tackling on normal for all three sets. The reason is that I don't think that my defenders are good enough to differentiate between the three.

My player instructions would take far too long to post here. Suffice to say the following. My FB's do not do RWB at all. I want the RLM's to do that. They should have better skills for it. Likewise my RLM's do not do FWD's. I want my FB's to do it. In their turn, they should have better strength and stamina than the RLM's. I think that that is the gist of it. The views of yourself and anyone else who may have opinions, good, bad or indifferent. All are welcome.

"C". I am printing out your post of today to peruse. I am eternally grateful to you. Kind regards.

I have started up the save game that I am playing using your tactics set. Restarting the game I am now able to play the two saves in parallel. The games will therefore play the same teams each week using the two separate saves.

I see, so you're playing with two identical saves, one with my set and one with your set. OK.

I am never sure whether tempo, width, closing down and defensive line should be exactly the same or not, in the defensive tactic. The eight for passing I found from one of wwfan's old tactics, sometimes I put it up to nine. I think that in the standard tactic, at least, the team's passing seems to be better.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the assistant comments about your passing. A poorly gelled side is more likely to play sloppy football anyway and so there might not be anything tactically wrong.

The views of yourself and anyone else who may have opinions, good, bad or indifferent. All are welcome.

What I have found quite useful is to have two versions of my balanced tactic, one which is more cautious, which I have named 'Balanced Counter'. This can be quite useful for away games, whereas I tend to use the TT&F Defend type strategy more for seeing out games.

Anyway, from what I can see your settings seem to make logical sense. Best of luck!

C.

Thanks very much "C". I have read your posts and have taken much encouragement from them, especially that my tactical ideas may not be as bad as I feared. I' ll get stuck in now until I get to the magic ten league games. After that I'll post again. It may take some time because at my age hospital appointments become "de rigoure". They get to be a social occasion as you see the same people each time you go. What a sad life I lead. Kind regards.

Nearly 300 downloads of my tactics set and not a lot of feedback. Ah, well.

FM09 has been on and off the shelf lately. I've been having a very short-term save with Liverpool as a FM fix that I come to occasionally.

I've signed two players for Liverpool, just to add squad depth in order to use my 4-4-1-1. They were Riquelme (to play AM) and Owen (to play ST).

My record with these tactics:

p29, w22, d5, l2, f54, a14, gd40, pts71.

The star of the show has actually been my lone striker, Fernando Torres. He has scored 14 goals in 20 games with a 7.49 rating.

My AM, Riquelme, has been fantastic also. He has played 17 games, scored 3, made 11 assists and got a couple of MoM awards (both of which he received in wins against Manchester United).

My other excellent performer has been Dirk Kuyt (playing as MR) who is probably the ideal player for this disciplined and hard-working tactic. If Riquelme epitomises the poetic side of the tactic, Kuyt epitomises the solidity.

Overall, the tactic has proved to be tight at the back, with an average of 0.5 p/m conceded. In attack, I've averaged a slightly more modest 2 goals a game.

Best results have been a 2-1 win over Man Utd away and a 3-2 win against them at home.

This is probably one of the best hat-tricks I've seen in FM09: http://files.filefront.com/13684706 - Torres away at Blackburn.

It's been a nice little short-term save but I'm going to put it to one side for now.

I really want to give FM09 another shot by taking on a challenge (probably using this tactics set). I've done a bit of complaining about it lately on the other threads but there are a lot of good things about it and I really want to give it another chance to get me hooked in again.

Anyway, I just wanted to feedback on the tactic as it has been a bit quiet. 300 downloaders are either enjoying the tactic too much to post or just don't like it. Oh well!

C.

I will try them now with Cologne 2nd season. Tyler's got me to 4th place last season, but this season it's completely another thing, lying 10th after 11 games. Although it shouldn't be done, I'll play the rest of the season with your tactic set as I'm frustrated anyway I will let you know how it worked after a few games.

OK Code - best of luck.

Ok Crouchie I'll give this a shot on my dafuges challenge save with boston utd. In BSP and tyerbode V6 ain't working for me. Will give you feedback at some point later

Good luck Almondo.

Just reached X-mas with this tactic, I had a bit of a clear out and brought in some new faces in the summer, due to that it took about 10 games before we could even link up passes, but now the team has gelled abit, performances are good and so are the results. Im sitting comfortably mid-table and as the tactic gels more i'm guessing i'll be challenging for the Uefa cup spots at the end of the season. Im not going to post all my results because theres to many and i cant remember which tactic i used in which games and how i changed them as the games went on, I can however remember beating Liverpool 1-0 at Anfield using the balenced counter and finishing up with the defensive one:D

Quick question about the striker though, what kind of striker do you recomend? I tried it with the striker in the this link, he just couldnt score, or really get much of a chance to score (his stats suggest he should be class, have i missed something?), so I tried Alex Teixeira instead and he's been banging the goals in, am i right in thinking the best striker for this tactic is someone who isnt afraid to run with the ball abit and can apply the finish? Such as Torres, Zarate, Rossi, Rooney etc.

Cheers Crouchy, great set:D

Just reached X-mas with this tactic, I had a bit of a clear out and brought in some new faces in the summer, due to that it took about 10 games before we could even link up passes, but now the team has gelled abit, performances are good and so are the results.

Yes, team gelling does have a really big effect but when you get to 'good' things turn around and performances become much more consistent.

Im sitting comfortably mid-table and as the tactic gels more i'm guessing i'll be challenging for the Uefa cup spots at the end of the season. Im not going to post all my results because theres to many and i cant remember which tactic i used in which games and how i changed them as the games went on, I can however remember beating Liverpool 1-0 at Anfield using the balenced counter and finishing up with the defensive one:D

And people say playing away from home is too difficult!

What a result!

Quick question about the striker though, what kind of striker do you recomend? I tried it with the striker in the this link, he just couldnt score, or really get much of a chance to score (his stats suggest he should be class, have i missed something?), so I tried Alex Teixeira instead and he's been banging the goals in, am i right in thinking the best striker for this tactic is someone who isnt afraid to run with the ball abit and can apply the finish? Such as Torres, Zarate, Rossi, Rooney etc.

Yes, I tend to go for an 'all rounder'. But certainly, someone with a bit of pace and strength who can run with the ball is best.

I've had Torres scoring for fun when playing with Liverpool. I've also had Paul Hakim, for St. Albans, putting the ball in the back of the net with the same regularity. Hakim is quite quick and direct in his play, so I think he suits that role.

I think a quick, direct and powerful striker should do a good job.

Strange though, because that striker you posted a link to looks pretty decent. However, I wonder if he might be a bit inconsistent (check coach report) as he is quite young?

Cheers Crouchy, great set:D

Glad you are enjoying it. Makes uploading it worthwhile.

C.

Strange though, because that striker you posted a link to looks pretty decent. However, I wonder if he might be a bit inconsistent (check coach report) as he is quite young?

He isn't inconsistant according to my ass man who is 20/20, he did have problems settling into the area though, over the course of 5months he was spotted out in the early hours around 4/5 times and as well as missing training a few times he even missed a match (first time ive seen that in FM), shipped him off to Newcastle now.

As well as that Liverpool result I've just gained a 0-0 against United, I was at home for it but still a great result in my eyes, I reckon I must have one of the best records against the big four in the league for the two seasons ive been in the prem:D

Cheers

Nice one Bob. Keep up the good work!

C.

I will give these a try with Leeds Utd

Good luck Skimmerman!

Crouchy i have played 4 games so far 3 with control, p3 w2 d1 l0 f5 a1, and 1 with balance counter and that was against reading away, we lost 2-1. But we were the better team, i have a very young side so its going to take some time and i think the training is going to be the big part of these tactics. Now i have Fabian Delph Aged 20 Daniel Parejo (20) Cirrian Deac (24) and Ferrie Bodde (27) would you swap positions with these players, when the other team man mark. I will keep you updated

Sounds like a good start. I don't tend to use the 'swap positions' instruction but if you think it is worth trying then I advise you to go for it (probably only in more attacking tactics though).

C.

Just beat Wigan in the 6th round FA Cup, got Chelsea in the semis. Have you made a pray to god tactic that would be useful.lol