Problems with my tactic: the players do what they want and not what i ask them

Problem(s) –

So...i start a game and i pick Atalanta. Last days i've accused the Match Engine to have several bugs, and for the first team in over 10 years i've considered just to give up. But then, after many users telling me that was my tactic (indeed very awful) i decide to read the Tactical Tips on this forum. So i read "12 steps" and "Pairs & Combinations" and i start a new game to see if something change. Well, i guess that Atalanta is a really good team (at least, for the expectations of the Board) and i thought that i would have time to work in peace. So i made my tactic (in truth 3 tactics, for test all the hints in the forum i read) and go on.

Honestly, my defenders now seems to do their work, also if i cant understand why not before. But nothing changes in fact, so i thought that patch was a joke or that i don't downloaded it. Same errors, same inexplicable attitude by my team.

And they are:

- Also if my defence do it's work, there is a moment in EVERY game when it melts. In this time (sometimes only 10 minutes) the opponents scores 2 or 3 (or more!) goals. Often with the same man but in different modes.

- My midfielders: this is the worst of all. My central midfielders don't do NOTHING - they don't tackle, they don't get ONE ball, they miss almost all the passes. The opposite team NEVER made an error, and i swear NEVER. My wide mens, on the other hand, NEVER put a cross, even if they are alone without opposition. And if i say never i say never. More often they continue to pass one on the other until a defender come back and win the ball. Another option is to serve in the middle, outside the area: this start a passing saga that ends ALWAYS with a long shot - that never scores.

- My Striker Denis is a good bomber, but in this game is rubbish. He fail the easy occasion in a unforgiven style. The opposition, instead, turns every "milkman boy" in Messi.

- Never see my defence clean the area after a corner: if goes good, there is another corner. If not, it's goal. Always.

- My keeper continue to long-kick the ball the rare moments he got it in his hands. Normally this turns into another occasion for the opponents.

Shape/formation –

I play 4-1-2-2-1 Standard/Fluid, sometimes i try 4-3-2-1 Standard/Rigid. Here it is:

The team and level you are playing –

As i said my team is Atalanta, i play Italian Serie A

Expectations –

Finish in the middle of the tab, not so easy but i repeat, is HOW i lose that concerns me, not that i lose

Screenshots, Pkm's and Saved Games –

I'm sorry but here i don't know what to insert other than the tactics below

Details –

I not use individual instructions, except for the keeper distribution

Thanks in advantage, help me please because i feel like a newbie and can't understand if it's me or it's ME (sorry, this make me laugh and i have to repeat )

Cheers.

Just another hint.

My defence seems most vulnerable in this occasions:

The opponent is outside the area, then he drop the ball deep and from the flanks it comes a man that burn my fullback and scores.

Always.

You are making some standard mistakes.

Firstly, a TM as a lone forward is a disaster of a choice. He does not offer enough to all round play and will limit your attacking movement and options. If you want a lone forward formation, choose a CF/S, DLF/S, F9 or TQ without an AMC, or an AF/A, CF/A or DLF/A with an AMC. You can play around with this after you've begun to understand the playing patterns.

I'd avoid Hassle and Stand Off as shouts as they are extremes. If you want to Press More or Less, then use the less extreme shouts.

Your top formation has no holding cover in midfield which will expose your d-line. You have two support duties plus a BWM/D. The first two will roam forward in attack, and the latter will push forward trying to win the ball, resulting in huge gaps in front of your d-line. You need a none BWM Defend duty player. Also want to query why you have Hit Early Crosses as a shout. Who exactly do you expect to hit them? You are basically telling your FBs to cross first time, which will result in your AMs failing to get into the box to be targets. Using Exploit the MIddle will make this even worse as it instructs them to stay deeper as well.

Your bottom formation has no attacking variety. You have a static TM and two IFs and a BBM moving into the same space he occupies. Your final third play will be horribly compressed. Look for Overlap actually makes your IFs more static, meaning you are almost completely reliant on your CWBs for attacking penetration.

I don't understand playing a SWK and Limited Defenders. The SWK is a high risk ball playing keeper. Why do you then have low risk boot it clear defenders in front of him? In GD, you say you want possession football. You won't get that with Limited Defenders.

You are making some standard mistakes.

Firstly, a TM as a lone forward is a disaster of a choice. He does not offer enough to all round play and will limit your attacking movement and options. If you want a lone forward formation, choose a CF/S, DLF/S, F9 or TQ without an AMC, or an AF/A, CF/A or DLF/A with an AMC. You can play around with this after you've begun to understand the playing patterns.

I'd avoid Hassle and Stand Off as shouts as they are extremes. If you want to Press More or Less, then use the less extreme shouts.

Your top formation has no holding cover in midfield which will expose your d-line. You have two support duties plus a BWM/D. The first two will roam forward in attack, and the latter will push forward trying to win the ball, resulting in huge gaps in front of your d-line. You need a none BWM Defend duty player. Also want to query why you have Hit Early Crosses as a shout. Who exactly do you expect to hit them? You are basically telling your FBs to cross first time, which will result in your AMs failing to get into the box to be targets. Using Exploit the MIddle will make this even worse as it instructs them to stay deeper as well.

Your bottom formation has no attacking variety. You have a static TM and two IFs and a BBM moving into the same space he occupies. Your final third play will be horribly compressed. Look for Overlap actually makes your IFs more static, meaning you are almost completely reliant on your CWBs for attacking penetration.

I don't understand playing a SWK and Limited Defenders. The SWK is a high risk ball playing keeper. Why do you then have low risk boot it clear defenders in front of him? In GD, you say you want possession football. You won't get that with Limited Defenders.

Thanks to your hints, i'll try to make some changes.

I said i want possession football but not with Atalanta, here i try to do something more "Zeman-Style" (failing as evidence)

Now i try to do some changes and i tell you how it goes

Regarding the team being permeable to through-balls: on the top formation, like wwfan said, despite 3 CMs none of them offer much protection in front of the defence, so an opposition playmaker on the AMC position will have too much space to operate in, and kill you with through-balls. In the bottom formation, you do have an excellent option there to kill the opponent's AMC in an Anchorman/defend, however you are pressing high, using the offside trap and instructing your full-backs on the most attack minded role/duty available, so no wonder there'll be space to exploit behind them.

To be fair there's lots more through-balls in this version of the match engine, and I am scoring lots of goals precisely thanks to having a winger/attack exploiting that exact same space you're being exploited in, so it is related to the ME yes. However it still makes footballing sense that you're conceding these goals, because both of your formations leave logical holes there for the through-balls to be played in. It just happens that the previous version of the ME masked this issues a lot as the defence lines were so deep, through-balls were rare.

I'd avoid Hassle and Stand Off as shouts as they are extremes. If you want to Press More or Less, then use the less extreme shouts.

I've got a question here, we were debating this on another thread - does Hassle and Stand Off still push up/drop back the defensive line like crazy in FM14? I really don't think they do, have been using Hassle regularly and don't notice any extreme high line on my team.

What are the less extreme shouts? If I want just to press a little more, or press a little less, what should I use then? Push Higher Up or Drop Deeper? As you can see by his screenie, Push Higher Up can be set together with Hassle so I really don't think these 2 are just different levels of the same shout, I think they do different things. Notice that there's "Push Higher Up" and "Much Higher Defensive Line" - these 2 must be different levels of the same shout, because if you pick one the others go red. I don't see the equivalent multiple levels for pressing.

Basically I've been operating under the assumption that "Hassle Opponents" in FM14 is the equivalent of "Press More" in FM13 ("Stand Off" conversely), with no intermediate levels. Whereas Push Higher Up / Much Higher Line / Drop Deeper / Much Deeper Line are 4 different levels of defensive line. The equivalent of FM13's "Hassle Opponents" would be to set both "Hassle Opponents" and "Much Higher Line" now.

I'm not sure. That's what they used to do. I've not been told that they've changed, but that doesn't mean they haven't. I'll chase it up.

Thanks guys for all the support.

First match with the corrections suggested by wwfan and after a 0-3 i got a comeback that ends with a 3-3 draw.

I hope to improve and to enjoy this version too, also every question comes in my mind i'll post here!

Thank you again ^_^ (it's way too complex that i thought)

EDIT:

One thing that i'm noticing.

EVERY TIME my GK longshot the ball this return to the opponents and turns into another occasion for the opponents.

Every time. Also if i can thought that my GK is not good in throw the ball AND my players are all like dwarfes...it's possible to see this against EVERY opponent in every match?

What's the mistake?

First post ever..

Go to your Player Instructions -> Goalkeeper and select the "Distribute to defenders", or "Distribute to specific defender" if that suits you.

First post ever..

Go to your Player Instructions -> Goalkeeper and select the "Distribute to defenders", or "Distribute to specific defender" if that suits you.

I've tried but it seems to me that simply he don't care.

I'm beginning to think that this ME is a joke: even if i change the things, goals came always in the same mode. I can't even count how much goals i conceed from corner.

And the results...oh God, how this gonna be a football simulation? Juventus VS Napoli = 11-2...Genoa VS Chievo = 7-5

Never see this stuff in FM...this is SO unrealistic!

I don't want to say "all is creepy, im a genius", surely i have to learn more and more, but...really? Don't you think that these things are simply insane?

I had that problem before the patch, but now it seems fixed. My goalkeeper always sends the ball to my defenders.

I' ve never seen these scores in my saves.

I had that problem before the patch, but now it seems fixed. My goalkeeper always sends the ball to my defenders.

I' ve never seen these scores in my saves.

(I'm not joking) if i see in the main menu, right bottom of the screen, 14.1.4 - this means that i have the latest patch? Because i start to wondering (seriously) that maybe my game is not patched.

Exactly, but why shouldn't it be patched?

A small piece of advice, if I may. Relax and give a good read in the tactics forum. Not just the 12 steps and the pairs & combinations. These two are a very good read but only to get you started. Search the forum, and you will discover what gegenpressing is, how to build a team around a player, why AMR/ AML positions are so tricky and tons of useful information.

Hi, PratoJoe! Just wanted to ask you, whether there was any specific reasoning behind you using your two central backs as limited defenders? Could you please point out what specificaly you are hoping to achieve and would want them to do as Limited Defenders? It seems to me, that using a Rigid phylosophy and restricting both of your CBs the chance to contribute a bit more to the game would somewhat increase the segregation between defense and midfield. However, it is probably the case that you had something in mind when you assigned these roles, so I am eager to find out more about it.

Hi, PratoJoe! Just wanted to ask you, whether there was any specific reasoning behind you using your two central backs as limited defenders? Could you please point out what specificaly you are hoping to achieve and would want them to do as Limited Defenders? It seems to me, that using a Rigid phylosophy and restricting both of your CBs the chance to contribute a bit more to the game would somewhat increase the segregation between defense and midfield. However, it is probably the case that you had something in mind when you assigned these roles, so I am eager to find out more about it.

Oh no, that was an error, i correct it - with not significant changes.

But the point (also for BvB fan) is another: this game is so unrealistic. I don't even care if win or not, my tactic now seems slightly better but that's not the point. I find a joke a game with this kind of results (not only my matches, the matches in general) and this sucks, leaving the will to play and improve when it's clear that (whatever i'm able or not) that's something broken in the core of the game. Really really disappointed to see game finish 11-2, 7-5, with repeated poker of "Mr.Nobody".

Trust me, before attacking the game i'm the kind of person that believe always that the error is all mine. But i can't see certain things happen.

Sorry to hear you are frustrated by the league results. Tbh the two results you posted really seem quite off, but unfortunately it is not possible to simulate real life football or really any other aspect of life perfectly. I've personally not witnessed such anomalies so far, but I know some people do. The developers could adjust the game, so surprising results never occur, but I doubt this would be realistic either. Anyway, do you still want help with your tactics, because I saw you still posting desperately in the Feedback Thread? I still think you could enjoy the game as much as anyone else that does, after you've set your tactics properly.

I'm interested to see more details about that Juventus game.

On the face of it, it is a ludicrous result.

As requested in the GD feedback thread where you posted the same images, can you post screens of the formation and lineups used by those teams please?

With regard to your struggles, please try to accept and absorb the feedback you have received.

The tactics you posted originally had some fundamental flaws, which wwfan and others have highlighted.

You haven't subsequently posted images to show what you interpreted that feedback to be.

If you got the setup wrong first time round, it is quite possible that your adjustments were also incorrect.

This isn't me being harsh, it it me being honest.

The more detail you provide, the more help you can be given.

It isn't great to see posters complaining in the feedback thread when there is likely to be a tactical solution to their problems.

I'm convinced that you can be helped out, but you need to want to be helped.

I'm interested to see more details about that Juventus game.

On the face of it, it is a ludicrous result.

As requested in the GD feedback thread where you posted the same images, can you post screens of the formation and lineups used by those teams please?

With regard to your struggles, please try to accept and absorb the feedback you have received.

The tactics you posted originally had some fundamental flaws, which wwfan and others have highlighted.

You haven't subsequently posted images to show what you interpreted that feedback to be.

If you got the setup wrong first time round, it is quite possible that your adjustments were also incorrect.

This isn't me being harsh, it it me being honest.

The more detail you provide, the more help you can be given.

It isn't great to see posters complaining in the feedback thread when there is likely to be a tactical solution to their problems.

I'm convinced that you can be helped out, but you need to want to be helped.

Sorry if my posts sounds like offensive or other, trust me, it was not my intention.

I intended that the feedback thread was to say what we found unaffortable for us - and maybe im really having a problem with my english

I'll post my tactics corrections.

For the results i can't, because i don't have saved - it was because i was repeating over and over the same match to see if i find differences with my tactical adjustement.

But believe me, nothing in the world can cause me "inventing" or "forcing" that results, that's not even happened to the team that i'm leading.

Yes, i know that i have to be helped, but in fact it's the "world around" that annoying me, not my game - i'm not a master in this game and surely i know it.

The game automatically saves matches on your hard drive.

If you look at this path on the drive when FM14 is saved, you should find a few files relating to the round of matches where that crazy Juventus result occurred.

I think that would automatically also capture the Juventus result in the background.

My Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2014\matches\automatic\

It would be great if you could look for it because 11-2 is not the sort of scoreline you should see at that level ever really, so it would be helpful for SI to understand how such a scoreline could happen.

The game automatically saves matches on your hard drive.

If you look at this path on the drive when FM14 is saved, you should find a few files relating to the round of matches where that crazy Juventus result occurred.

I think that would automatically also capture the Juventus result in the background.

My Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2014\matches\automatic\

It would be great if you could look for it because 11-2 is not the sort of scoreline you should see at that level ever really, so it would be helpful for SI to understand how such a scoreline could happen.

I'm sorry but my folder seems empty? Can it depends on the fact that i don't autosave?

I'll try to load a save in the appropriate thread, also if there is no result of thats i have mentioned.

EDIT: How can i upload my save to you? I'm trying something like SpeedyShare, but it takes a lifetime...

Well, the result is quite strange, but we have seen similar scores in recent years.

Who forgets the Man Utd vs Roma fixture for the Champions League Quarter-final in 2007. The result was 7-1. Not like 11-2, but again it wasn' t just another difficult league match, it was the quarter-final.

Or the PSV vs Feyenord 10-0 ?

My point is, that the result was indeed strange but i wouldn't say that it was unrealistic. If you see it happen again and again, then yes, there's a problem there.

EDIT: In Champioship Manager ( if i remember well it was the 2001 version), I was reading something in my inbox that it was almost unbelievable. Patsatzoglou ( a former Greek player, died in a car accident, and the greek football assosiation paid his team 1 million euros in compensation).

Well, the result is quite strange, but we have seen similar scores in recent years.

Who forgets the Man Utd vs Roma fixture for the Champions League Quarter-final in 2007. The result was 7-1. Not like 11-2, but again it wasn' t just another difficult league match, it was the quarter-final.

Or the PSV vs Feyenord 10-0 ?

My point is, that the result was indeed strange but i wouldn't say that it was unrealistic. If you see it happen again and again, then yes, there's a problem there.

That's the point. Believe me, i know persons that if the opponents scores a goal from midfield or win 4-0 say "this game is bugged".

I hate these point of view.

But this not means that i can't see strange things when they are.

I'm sorry but my folder seems empty? Can it depends on the fact that i don't autosave?

I'll try to load a save in the appropriate thread, also if there is no result of thats i have mentioned.

EDIT: How can i upload my save to you? I'm trying something like SpeedyShare, but it takes a lifetime...

Here's a link detailing how to upload stuff:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368795

If you generally have a save game with some weird scores on it, please upload that and confirm the name it is saved with.

Alternatively, if you have matches with crazy scores, please upload the (much) smaller .pkm files from those matches and confirm what they are called.

The more evidence SI get, the more chance they have to see if these high scoring games have any logic behind them.

Not sure why that folder was blank, may relate to auto-save as you said.

Here's a link detailing how to upload stuff:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368795

If you generally have a save game with some weird scores on it, please upload that and confirm the name it is saved with.

Alternatively, if you have matches with crazy scores, please upload the (much) smaller .pkm files from those matches and confirm what they are called.

The more evidence SI get, the more chance they have to see if these high scoring games have any logic behind them.

Not sure why that folder was blank, may relate to auto-save as you said.

Ok, thanks!

I'm trying to upload my Save, meanwhile i like to update my game so far.

I'm managing to turn my tactic into something less awful, i've returned to my original idea to take inspiration by Zdenek Zeman and surprisingly there is some news.

Good news, despite the result, it's the match and the way that my players play it: they seems to do whati i tell, and also if i lose most of the match there's not the results of the beginning. Slowly im learning what to do, even if sometimes my team struggle to realize one goal and sometimes they score a lot.

This is the tactic (extreme, i know)

And this is the results so far

I use the new formation from the day after the loss with Udinese.

I have to say something positive:

- The Sweeper-Keeper do his job and it's a pleasure to see it

- The defenders at least TRY to do their job, also if sometimes they lose their mind without any reason.

- The passing errors of the midfielders are very less

Still remains:

- too much goals in general

- too much goals from corner (for or against)

- too much ability for the poor teams

- italian Serie A is not realistic, with Roma really too weak in front of the reality (one example)

Now, however, i'm slightly positive as i don't care the results but the game instead.

It's not bad as i think, still there is MUCH MORE to turn it into the best game of the saga.

For what i say, it's disappointing to see a ME like this in a game so magnificent for the others aspects.

Again - sorry for my english and thanks for your patience.

EDIT: When i try to upload my save says "Critical Error"

Looking at your updated tactic, this is what I would try.....

1. As WWfan said, because you have no AMC behind the AF, changing his role to support might help

2. In the IF / AP line, consider an attack role for one of them

3. Change the DLP to a DM and perhaps one of the CM-S to a DLP-S (on the left) and the other to a BBM (on the right)

4. Ditch the CWB for WB (Attack on the Left, Support on the Right)

I think that should give your team a bit better 'balance' .

I see you have instructed your team to be Fluid, but are using the Be More Disciplined and Stick To Position team instructions, perhaps remove these team instructions and add some individual player instructions to instruct certain players to be a little more disciplined?

I always use the Hassle Opponents instruction in combination with Stay On Feet as it seems to put pressure on their players without my players recklessly diving into challenges, so perhaps give that a try?

Yeah I don't like your tactic neither. There's no movement from midfield, all 4 in the AM and M lines are on support duty which means they'll just stay there (I don't get your idea of a duo of CM/S - CM/S at all, do you really need 2 static guys on midfield who do nothing but retain possession and spray passes sideways?). Moreover they're even told to "stick to position"! Meanwhile the lone forward pushes the line upfront and doesn't drop back to connect with the rest of the team. That will make for a very static attack. I suspect your only constant source of goals is the CWBs bombing forward but I don't like using 2 CWBs at once as that will open up horribly huge spaces behind their backs. That space will be even bigger given that you're using Attacking strategy AND Push Higher Up.

Also Attacking + More Direct will make for a super quick game which doesn't suit your super static 4 man on support midfield at all. "Look For Overlap" makes sense, to make everyone wait for those 2 CWBs to bomb forward, but is also completely at odds with that Attacking + More Direct combo.

I don't mind Be More Disciplined together with Fluid but telling your players to be more disciplined when your setup doesn't make sense, will only make it make even less sense.

Don't get me wrong I don't think the game is perfect, and I suspect some of this tactic's weaknesses will be exaggerated by this ME (particularly the through balls behind your defence). But I think you have pretty big tactical problems on top of it.

Thank you so much guys, tomorrow i'll try to make some (more) adjustement! ^^