Tutoring results test

Please be aware that this thread is for FM10 ... some things might have changed in FM11

Since I have not been able to figure out when and why a tutoring would be successful or not, I decided to try and test this.

I have used the Editor to create 7 Tutors and 7 Youngsters. The plan is to assign each Youngster to a Tutor and then go on holiday to see what the result is on success or failure of tutoring.

My plan is to run it 5 times for each pairing., and the switch each Youngster to the next Tutor and do the same.

Initial setup:

All my 14 players have 20 in MC position. All Youngsters have 50 CA/100 PA, and the Tutors have 75 CA/120 PA. All Youngsters are 21 and younger and the Tutors are all 26 and older. No Youngster have a higher Squad Status than any of the Tutors. Each Youngster has a Current Reputation of '5' and the Tutors of '20'.

I have selected a Personality type for each player, and set his stats to match, but the rest of the mental stats I have just selected randomly. I have selected mainly positive types for the Tutors and neutral/negative for the Youngsters.

Results so far:

* Affected stats by tutoring: Determination, Adaptability, Ambition, Controversy, Loyalty, Pressure, Professionalism, Sportsmanship, Temperament, as well as potentially any or all of tutor's PPMs.

* Tutor has to have same or better Squad status than Youngster.

* Tutor has to have better Reputation score than Youngster.

* Tutor must be older than Youngster

* Tutor has to be min. 22 years old

* Youngster outfield players can be max. 26 years old

* Youngster GK can be max. 28 years old

* They have to be skilled in the same position to be paired.

* Seemingly CA does not matter for determining if they can be paired. A Youngster with higher CA/PA can be tutored by one with less.

* Interaction options:

- Ideal Role model - use if tutor has 'Key Player' squad status

- Benefit from Approach - use if tutor has 'First Team' squad status

- Learn from - use if tutor has 'Rotation/Backup' squad status

* Tutoring is not of variable length. It takes exactly 180 days from start until finish, unless there is a Personality clash before the end.

* Tutoring affects the stats from the onset of the period, which means that if it ends prematurely (due to Personality clash, selling/loaning out a player) the Youngster will still (most likely) have his mental stats change. He might even gain a PPM.

* The result message (if it doesn't clash) doesn't tell the truth at all:

Benefited occurs when 2 (probably more) PPMs have transferred,

Appreciate Influence occurs with 1 PPM given.

Gains little means no PPM have been shifted but still a massive shift may have occured within the attributes.

Gained nothing means very few attributes have changed, and only 1 or 2 points in any direction for each attribute.

Be aware that the news item heading for the last two are almost identical ('Gained little' and 'Gains a little'). 'Gains a little' being the worst one.

* Influence is most likely not affected by Tutoring. I had some who increased one point sometimes, but that might just be a normal increase for the player that is not related to the tutoring.

* Tutoring is not exclusively positive. If the Tutor has a bad stat, he can have a negative effect on that stat of the Youngster. Basically the Youngster's stats will move towards the stats of the Tutor.

* Age: Age of the tutor and Youngster doesn't seem to matter in the results of a tutoring. A 15 year old will not learn more than a 22 year old.

* Influence: Influence of the tutor does not seem to have any effect on the result.

* Reputation: Does the rep. of the Tutor matter? ... results inconclusive. The few tests I ran, showed a higher average shift of stats than for a lower rep. tutor. But not by that much, and chance does have a significant effect on the results too. It is likely that the higher the rep., the more effect the tutoring has. But I still think that Personality and luck have a higher effect on results.

Personality type

Updated Personality types list for FM10.3, based on Lyssien's research made for an earlier version of FM:

Positive Personality types:

Ambitious: Ambition = 16-19 & Loyalty < 10.

Born Leader: Influence = 20 & Determination = 20. Age needs to be 23+

Determined: Determination = 18-19 & Ambition >9.

Driven: Determination = 20 & Ambition > 9.

Fairly Ambitious: (Ambition = 15) or (Ambition = 16-20 & Loyalty >9).

Fairly Professional: (Professionalism = 15-17) or (Professionalism = 18-20 & Temperament < 10).

Iron Willed: Pressure = 20 & Determination > 14.

Jovial: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 9 & Professionalism < 11

Leader: (Influence = 19) or (Influence = 20 & Determination < 20).

Light-Hearted: Sportsmanship > 14 & Pressure > 14 & Determination > 9 & Temperament > 9.

Model Citizen: Determination > 17 & Ambition > 17 & Loyalty > 17 & Pressure > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Temperament > 17 & Sportsmanship > 17.

Model Professional: Professionalism = 20 & Temperament > 9.

Professional: Professionalism = 18-19 & Temperament > 9.

Perfectionist: Ambition > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Determination > 17 & Temperament < 10

Resilient: Pressure = 17-19 & Determination > 14.

Resolute: Determination = 15-17 & Professionalism = 15-17.

Spirited: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism = 11-17 & Temperament > 9.

Very Ambitious: Ambition = 20 & Loyalty < 10.

Negative Personality types:

Casual: Professionalism = 2-4 & Determination < 10.

Devoted: Loyalty = 20 & Ambition = 6-7 & 'Likes team' rating 100+

Easily Discouraged: Determination = 1 & Ambition < 10

Low Determination: Determination = 2-5 & Ambition < 10

Low Self-Belief: Pressure = 2-3 & Determination < 10.

Loyal: Loyalty = 18-19 & Ambition = 6-7

Slack: Professionalism = 1 & Determination < 10.

Spineless: Pressure = 1 & Determination < 10.

Temperamental: Temperament = 1-4.

Unambitious: Ambition < 6 & Loyalty > 10

Unsporting: Sportsmanship = 1 & Determination > 10

Very Loyal: Loyal = 20 & Ambition = 6-7

Neutral Personality types:

Balanced: none of the rest

Fairly Determined: (Determination = 15-17) or (Determination = 18-20 & Ambition < 10).

Fairly Loyal: (Loyalty = 15-17) or (Loyalty = 18-20 & Ambition = 8-14).

Fairly Sporting: Sportsmanship = 15-17.

Honest: Sportsmanship = 20 & Determination < 10

Realist: Sportsmanship = 2-4 & Determination > 10

Sporting: Sportsmanship = 18-19 & Determination < 10

Often, a player may be eligible to be described by more than one personality descriptions. In this case, you are still going to see only one description. As a rule, Professional> Determined> Realist> Resilient> Light-Hearted> Spirited> Resolute> Jovial. What is to the lft, takes precedence. This means that if a player is both Realist and Spirited, in the game he is going to be described as "Realist".

Media Handling type

As part of the process, I wanted to find out if there was any way to guess the other hidden stats of the players, besides the one or two normally shown through the Personality Type. I found that the Media Handling Type can be used also, though it doesn't always tell you all you need to know. But after extensively checking various types in Genie Scout, I think I have found the stats that govern each of the Media Types:

Volatile: Temperament 3-6

Reserved: Controversy < 5 & Professionalism > 14 & Temperament > 6

Unflappable: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 14

Evasive: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism > 14 & Controversy < 15

Short-tempered: Temperament < 3

Confrontational: Sportsmanship < 8 & Temperament < 8

Outspoken: Controversy > 14

Media-Friendly: Controversy < 15

Level-Headed: Controversy < 15 & Loyalty > 10 & Temperament > 6 & (Sportmanship > 11 or Professionalism > 12)

So it seems that you would want 'Reserved', 'Unflappable' and 'Evasive' mainly, as they have good Professionalism scores. 'Level-headed' is ok too as it means most scores are at least average. 'Media-friendly' seems to be a bit like 'Balanced' Personality type, in that all you know is that Controversy is not too high. But other stats could still be low.

Unanswered questions:

- Does it matter if the Youngster/Tutor plays well during tutoring period??

- Which personality pairings will result in a 'No benefit' reply from the Youngster. i have managed to create one Tutor of every posiitive type and one Youngster of every negative type, and will run tests on their pairing, to see which will reject which immediately. That way we can know beforehand if a pairing is doomed to fail.

I will update this message with any other conclusive results we might find, as well as the spread sheet.

Please feel free to add any experiences, analysis, comments or questions

14/07/10 : Test results so far: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2690754/Tutoring%20%28Storm-PC%27s%20conflicted%20copy%202010-06-18%29.xls

a little insight from SI

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=4412108&postcount=218

Not sure if it still applies but I looked at this myself on 08 and it did seem to be linked to how players perceive themselves within the squad, with as you found reputation playing a role but also the dynamic variable relative to their personality and how much playing time they get.

A simple example is when a backup player gets a long term run in the first team due to injuries and when you offer him a contract he may look for rotation or even first team status. If you cancel the contract offer, and subsequently return to picking your preferred player then the backup player in question can have his desired squad status drop back down again when being offered a new contract.

Yeah I read that. Basically all three options do the same, but I have to pick which one to keep the Tutor happy, depending on his squad status.

But I want to know if the same pairings of personalities fail/succeed every time. Maybe even find out what it is that makes it fail or succeed.

Running a few initial tests yesterday, and I was wondering about this pairing:

Name: ................... Tutor F

Age: ..................... 41

Personality: ........... Iron Willed

Squad Status: ........ Key-Player

Determination: ........ 20

Influence: .............. 15

Adaptability: ........... 10

Ambition: ............... 12

Controversy: .......... 7

Loyalty: ................ 12

Pressure: .............. 20

Professionalism: ..... 13

Sportsmanship: ...... 12

Temperament: ....... 12

Name: ................... Youngster F

Age: ..................... 15

Personality: ........... Very Loyal

Squad Status: ........ Hot Prospect

Determination: ........ 6

Influence: .............. 4

Adaptability: ........... 6

Ambition: ............... 4

Controversy: .......... 10

Loyalty: ................ 20

Pressure: .............. 11

Professionalism: ..... 8

Sportsmanship: ...... 7

Temperament: ....... 7

Now does anyone have any clue as to why the Youngster rejects the tutoring immediately, saying that he doesn't feel he can learn anything from the Tutor??

The Tutor has a better reputation and higher CA/PA than the Youngster. But he seems to reject the offer every time.

Hmmm no one withan idea??

Well I did manage to figure something out with these tests ... Tutoring duration is not variable. It takes exactly 180 days

Is the difference in personality too big?

Is the difference in personality too big?

I would guess that if the difference is too great, the tutoring would end later in a clash of personalities (so far this has happened once for one of the other pairings), not with the youngster rejecting the older guy outright.

But maybe

First I thought it might just be him being either too unambitious or maybe controversional, but others of the Youngsters I am testing have worse scores in those stats that Youngster F.

I would guess that if the difference is too great, the tutoring would end later in a clash of personalities (so far this has happened once for one of the other pairings), not with the youngster rejecting the older guy outright.

But maybe

First I thought it might just be him being either too unambitious or maybe controversional, but others of the Youngsters I am testing have worse scores in those stats that Youngster F.

My only terrible experience of tutoring has been with Gerson. He had a shocking personality and when I signed him at 18 he refused all tutoring requests, but apart from him being an idiot there was no obvious reason why he was such a pain.

My only terrible experience of tutoring has been with Gerson. He had a shocking personality and when I signed him at 18 he refused all tutoring requests, but apart from him being an idiot there was no obvious reason why he was such a pain.

Maybe it is a too large Personality gap. Very Loyal being one of the negative personalities and Iron-Willed being one of the very positive ones.

But once I have run some tests on each pairing I think I will switch pairings around to see if it is just Youngster F's personality that hinders tutoring, or if it is a too wide gap in personalities

But once I have run some tests on each pairing I think I will switch pairings around to see if it is just Youngster F's personality that hinders tutoring, or if it is a too wide gap in personalities

I really look forward to your results. As of now, I only sign youngsters who are either fairly ambitious, fairly determined or fairly professional or above, cause I can't really see how the mechanics work and just taking that limited set on board sort of limits the chance players would fall out with each other.

I really look forward to your results. As of now, I only sign youngsters who are either fairly ambitious, fairly determined or fairly professional or above, cause I can't really see how the mechanics work and just taking that limited set on board sort of limits the chance players would fall out with each other.

Well after running 5 runs with the 7 initial pairings, it seems that even successful tutoring won't make an Unambitious guy into an Ambitious one. It seems to be a slow process, where you need to tutor a youngster several times to get true results.

Seems like scores change between 0 and 4 (sometimes 5) skill points. Though in one test Ambition did rise from 4 to 12.

Of course the sample is pretty low, so there might be other factors. My tutors are fairly close in abilities (CA/PA/Reputation) as the youngsters, so would a world-class tutor have better success?? ... who knows ... might be something I'll look at once I finish these tests.

I think the major problem with tutoring, is that unless you use Genie Scout or something, you won't know the hidden scores. If you have a player is 'Iron-Willed', you know his Pressure score is 20. But you have no idea what his Ambition is, or whether he has 18 in Controversy and 4 in Sportsmanship.

Also your Youngster might be 'Spineless' (Pressure = 1) and thus you want him to increase that, but if his Ambition score is 14, and the Tutor has Ambition 6, do you really want them to be paired.

Besides changes in Personality (which only shows one or two stats) and Determination, you have no idea if the tutoring was a good thing or not.

I finally got my last run finished this evening

I have attached the speadsheet with my results up until now in my original post.

I have run the pairs 5 times and noted the results for each. Then I cycled the Youngsters to a new Tutor and did the same.

Eventually I hope to have them cycled to each tutor, unless I figure out how everything works before then .

Be aware that I picked the Personality Types, and then set the stats for those. The rest of the stats are more or less random.

Okay, let's see what we can make of the results...

1. The result message (if it doesn't clash) doesn't tell the truth at all. Benefited occurs when 2 (probably more) PPMs have transferred, Appreciate Influence occurs with 1 PPM given. Gains little means no PPM have been shifted but still a massive shift may have occured within the attributes. Gained nothing means very few attributes have changed, and only 1 or 2 points in any direction for each attribute.

2. The higher the tutor squad status is, the better the initial reaction. As for the test dummies however, it doesn't appear to make a difference on the result.

3. Personalities within one attribute range (i.e. Unambitious -> Fairly Ambitious -> Ambitious) have the least chance to fail if at all.

4. Influence is not affected by Tutoring.

5. Balanced players hardly fail at all and are wax in your tutor's hands.

Any comments or further observations based on that sheet? Excellent work btw!

Okay, let's see what we can make of the results...

1. The result message (if it doesn't clash) doesn't tell the truth at all. Benefited occurs when 2 (probably more) PPMs have transferred, Appreciate Influence occurs with 1 PPM given. Gains little means no PPM have been shifted but still a massive shift may have occured within the attributes. Gained nothing means very few attributes have changed, and only 1 or 2 points in any direction for each attribute.

2. The higher the tutor squad status is, the better the initial reaction. As for the test dummies however, it doesn't appear to make a difference on the result.

3. Personalities within one attribute range (i.e. Unambitious -> Fairly Ambitious -> Ambitious) have the least chance to fail if at all.

4. Influence is not affected by Tutoring.

5. Balanced players hardly fail at all and are wax in your tutor's hands.

Any comments or further observations based on that sheet? Excellent work btw!

Thanks a lot for the observations ....I haven't sat down and really looked at the numbers yet, it was past midnight yesterday when I finished my last run.

But glad that you seem to have found some red thread in this

I will continue with 5 more runs in a new cycle today and update the spreadsheet. The more data we have, the easier it is to analyze (I hope).

Edit: So looking at your analysis, we can conclude that Tutoring (almost) always have an effect. Only in one single test, did the stats not change at all in the Youngster. Also even though the personalities clash, there are effects while the tutoring is going on. The longer it takes before the tutoring ends because of a personality clash, the more effect it has. There can even be a transfer of PPMs in that time.

I would not say that Influence is not affected, but it is highly unlikely and if it shifts, it is only by one point.

well, i've searched a lot the whole thing about tutors:

first of all what a tutoring can change is: PREFFERED MOVES, DETERMINATION, and ALL the Personality stats. nothing more (at least I think).

secondly, you can never be sure that a tutoring will succeed: it's all about luck. i've seen when re-loading the game, a player saying "unhappy following..... with teammate" and after reloading the game, it didnt happen and after a while he had him as favoured personel and the tutoring was completely succesful.

but there are surely some things that if you pay attention at, your tutor probably will succeed. for example: never tutor players with the same determination: the youngster would be better to have a lower determination so that he "can" be tutored to a better level. the same goes with preffered moves. it would be better that the man that tutors has some of them so that the youngster can learn some moves. and last, and more important IMO it's very important to turor a youngster with a player that has the same role in the pitch. the tall stricker with a tall one, the GK with height 1.75 with a Gk with height 1.75-1.82 not with a GK taht is 1.95 cause they are not the same style of players. the playmaker with a youngster that can become a playmaker. finally world class players is more possible that will succeed in tutoring: the reason is that a youngster will appreciate that he is tutored be a WC player and probably will try harder.

Great research, one thing to add is that it seems the tutor can also have a negative impact on someone's personality as much as a positive one. For example in alot of the tests the tutor has adaptability of about 5 less than the youngster. In the A/G test the youngster loses 1-5 points of a good attribute! In the B/B test he loses 1-4 points!

This may explain why the final reaction is worse than you might have expected - the youngster is balancing out their gains with their losses and concluding (rightly or wrongly) that he hasn't gained much...

Does any of the tutoring have an effect on a players potential and ability? If you use world class players tutoring a players whos potential is to be an average league 1 player say can he be boosted to become a leading premier league player for example? or is it only worth tutoring youngsters who actually look like they have a decent future?

Does any of the tutoring have an effect on a players potential and ability? If you use world class players tutoring a players whos potential is to be an average league 1 player say can he be boosted to become a leading premier league player for example? or is it only worth tutoring youngsters who actually look like they have a decent future?

It does NOT effect current or potential ability.

Great research, one thing to add is that it seems the tutor can also have a negative impact on someone's personality as much as a positive one. For example in alot of the tests the tutor has adaptability of about 5 less than the youngster. In the A/G test the youngster loses 1-5 points of a good attribute! In the B/B test he loses 1-4 points!

This may explain why the final reaction is worse than you might have expected - the youngster is balancing out their gains with their losses and concluding (rightly or wrongly) that he hasn't gained much...

I think as Declyn concluded, that the final reaction is whether he learned PPMs or not, or whether there were large shifts in stats or not.

F.x in one of the tests that I haven't updated yet, my Youngster 'Gained Little' from the tutor, but his stats improved massively: Determination +8, Adaptability +4, Ambition +3, Controversy -3 (good thing), Loyalty -6 (good thing), Pressure +3, Professionalism +3, Sportmanship +5, Temperament +4.

But you are right, any negative trait the tutor have will most likely affect the youngster too.

One of the reasons why I think we need to have a better indication of the player's mental stats than just a Personality Type. My 'Driven' Tutor might have horrible Sportmanship and the Youngster might have a great Sportsmanship, so I might not want to sacrifice that stat. But the 'Driven' Personality tells me nothing about the tutor's Sportmanship score.

Spread sheet updated with third cycle results

Okay, let's see what we can make of the results...

2. The higher the tutor squad status is, the better the initial reaction. As for the test dummies however, it doesn't appear to make a difference on the result.

Actually it seems to be connected (also) to the available PPMs. No matter what the Squad Status of the Tutor is, if he does not have any PPMs, the reaction seems to always be 'Unsure'. Now what governs the 'Looking to Learn' and 'Delighted' I have no clue (except that both requires PPMs).

Spread sheet updated with fourth cycle results

Spread sheet updated with fifth cycle

Awesome testing!

Love it when people do statistical analysis on this game, it's the most useful at figuring out the game since it's actually based on facts. Thanks for doing this StormenDK.

This is a great post, nice one Stormen

Some things I've noticed about tutoring:

Having the tutoring playing regularly, and well, also seems to improve the tutoring. This may just be linked to the tutoring having a high morale though, I'm not sure.

If the player to be tutored likes you, he'll always accept the tutor you recommend, no matter the personality difference.

After tutoring has finished you have to wait 180 days until you can go again (unless on an unpatched FM 2010, when you could do it straight away).

Younger seems to be better for tutoring players, as you'd probably expect; I've seen some big changes in 15-17 year olds being tutored by world-class players. After about 19, they seem to become harder to change.

Awesome testing!

Love it when people do statistical analysis on this game, it's the most useful at figuring out the game since it's actually based on facts. Thanks for doing this StormenDK.

You are welcome .. sadly this is much more boring and time consuming that just playing the game .... but I felt it needed to be done, as I could find no threads where anyone had actually looked at the results.

It bothered me that there was (and still is) so much guess work when it comes to this game feature.

This is a great post, nice one Stormen

Some things I've noticed about tutoring:

Having the tutoring playing regularly, and well, also seems to improve the tutoring. This may just be linked to the tutoring having a high morale though, I'm not sure.

This I have not been able to test, as I have little say over who plays during the test period. But this might be true. Unconfirmed though.

If the player to be tutored likes you, he'll always accept the tutor you recommend, no matter the personality difference.

This I will try out after I have run all cycles. I know some of my pairings will not work. So if I edit the Youngster of one of those to like me, then I can check if he will accept the pairing. Thanks

After tutoring has finished you have to wait 180 days until you can go again (unless on an unpatched FM 2010, when you could do it straight away).

I haven't tested this, but I have no reason to think otherwise. Which would mean that you can tutor a Youngster once per season.

Younger seems to be better for tutoring players, as you'd probably expect; I've seen some big changes in 15-17 year olds being tutored by world-class players. After about 19, they seem to become harder to change.

This doesn't seem to be supported by my tests. To me, it seems to more about personalities (and other factors??) regarding how successful a tutoring is. I sometimes see very small changes in a 15 year old and huge shifts for a 21 year old, and vice versa. But I guess to test this, I'd need to have two identical Youngsters of different ages to test this on.

Once my current tests are done, I plan to test the following too:

Does Influence have an effect??

I'll create two identical Tutors, except for their Influence stat, and let them tutor two identical Youngsters.

Does Reputation have an effect??

I'll create two identical Tutors except for their Reputation score, and let them tutor two identical Youngsters.

This doesn't seem to be supported by my tests. To me, it seems to more about personalities (and other factors??) regarding how successful a tutoring is. I sometimes see very small changes in a 15 year old and huge shifts for a 21 year old, and vice versa. But I guess to test this, I'd need to have two identical Youngsters of different ages to test this on.

You could well be right, I've not done any proper testing on it. Maybe it could be CA? The higher CA, the more difficult tutoring is? This would explain older players being harder to change. Or.....I could just be wrong

You could well be right, I've not done any proper testing on it. Maybe it could be CA? The higher CA, the more difficult tutoring is? This would explain older players being harder to change. Or.....I could just be wrong

Maybe that is true ... but I have taken CA/PA/Reputation out of my current tests. It is the same for all my test subjects.

But I think what I primarily want is to figure out what pairings work, and how to read results. So far the biggest breakthrough (thanks to Declyn) is that just because they say they learned only little, they might actually have learned alot

Spread sheet updated with sixth cycle results

the GK with height 1.75 with a Gk with height 1.75-1.82 not with a GK taht is 1.95 cause they are not the same style of players.

The height doesn't matter, I've had a 196 cm tall keeper succesfully tutoring several young GK with height between 180 and 185 cm.

After tutoring has finished you have to wait 180 days until you can go again (unless on an unpatched FM 2010, when you could do it straight away).

That ain't a fixed rule, sometimes you can tutor a player almost straight away with the 10.3 patch.

Loyalty -6 (good thing)

How come a decrease in loyalty being a good thing? If the loyalty attribute is high he won't be asking for a new challenge or request a transfer if he doesn't play as fast as he will do with a low loyalty attribute. The higher attribute in loyalty, means the player is more loyal.

How come a decrease in loyalty being a good thing? If the loyalty attribute is high he won't be asking for a new challenge or request a transfer if he doesn't play as fast as he will do with a low loyalty attribute. The higher attribute in loyalty, means the player is more loyal.

I think the new challenge or request transfer complaints are due to the Ambition trait, not to Loyalty. Loyalty is rather responsible how susceptible the player is to unsettling via transfer rumors and how quick he's likely to go to a bigger fish in the pool when one comes knocking.

The height doesn't matter, I've had a 196 cm tall keeper succesfully tutoring several young GK with height between 180 and 185 cm.

I think you are right. I have no reason to think that physical traits have any bearing on tutoring. So a very tall, eccentric keeper can still be a great tutor for a small, non-eccentric keeper.

How come a decrease in loyalty being a good thing? If the loyalty attribute is high he won't be asking for a new challenge or request a transfer if he doesn't play as fast as he will do with a low loyalty attribute. The higher attribute in loyalty, means the player is more loyal.

Well the Loyalty stat is mostly connected with the negative Personality types. Also I think in a Youngster, you want him to be Ambitious, not Loyal. I think when they get too Loyal, they get complacent and feel no need to better themselves, which is what you really want.

StormenDK, I also don`t agree with your view on loyalty. No need to become better? I believe that`s not connected at all to loyalty. It should be connected with Determination and Ambition.

I`ll agree that loosing points in loyalty is a bad thing.

StormenDK, I also don`t agree with your view on loyalty. No need to become better? I believe that`s not connected at all to loyalty. It should be connected with Determination and Ambition.

I`ll agree that loosing points in loyalty is a bad thing.

We don't have to agree ... and maybe a guy with 2 in Loyalty is also a bad thing. But according to this thread, it seems that Loyalty is mainly connected to undesirable personality types, which is why I said the decrease was a good thing

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=16356&highlight=personality&page=2

I have not yet seen any official descriptions of the hidden attributes, and thus we don't really know exactly what we can espect from a guy with high/low Loyalty.

Final and seventh cycle completed .... please have a look and comment if you find anything

Edit: Added another sheet to the work sheet with a long list of Media Types and the hidden stats. I hope these can be used to at least guess the range of some of the stats. Would like some feedback on those, if anyone can find which stats affect these types.

The obvious ones are Reserved (low Controversy) and Volatile (Temperament < 7) but I haven't really looked at the others yet.

The types I have found so far are:

Media-friendly

Volatile

Level-headed

Reserved

Confrontational

Outspoken

Unflappable

Evasive

Please let me know stats if you find/know any other Media Types

Well the Loyalty stat is mostly connected with the negative Personality types. Also I think in a Youngster, you want him to be Ambitious, not Loyal. I think when they get too Loyal, they get complacent and feel no need to better themselves, which is what you really want.

Actually you're wrong, loyalty is important to keep the squad morale high, and also that you have time to develop the younger players. You don't want a young player to have a low loyalty attribute as he will demand to leave if isn't played as much as he wants, especially if he is very ambitious to. Ambition and loyalty should both be high. Ambition so he wants to improve, but then again loyalty is important so he stays happy and that you have time to develop him. Complacency has not too much with loyalty to do, it is purely an attribute that tells how loyal he is to club and country nothing more (research guidelines). Complacency and un ambitious behaviour has to with a low ambition and proffesionalism attribute.

Final and seventh cycle completed .... please have a look and comment if you find anything

Edit: Added another sheet to the work sheet with a long list of Media Types and the hidden stats. I hope these can be used to at least guess the range of some of the stats. Would like some feedback on those, if anyone can find which stats affect these types.

The obvious ones are Reserved (low Controversy) and Volatile (Temperament < 7) but I haven't really looked at the others yet.

The types I have found so far are:

Media-friendly

Volatile

Level-headed

Reserved

Confrontational

Outspoken

Unflappable

Evasive

Please let me know stats if you find/know any other Media Types

There is a thread about this, but I couldn't find it when I searched. The thread is either in this forum or the good player and teamguide forum.

Final and seventh cycle completed .... please have a look and comment if you find anything

Edit: Added another sheet to the work sheet with a long list of Media Types and the hidden stats. I hope these can be used to at least guess the range of some of the stats. Would like some feedback on those, if anyone can find which stats affect these types.

The obvious ones are Reserved (low Controversy) and Volatile (Temperament < 7) but I haven't really looked at the others yet.

The types I have found so far are:

Media-friendly

Volatile

Level-headed

Reserved

Confrontational

Outspoken

Unflappable

Evasive

Please let me know stats if you find/know any other Media Types

Here is the thread of comprehensive personalities...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=16356

enjoy!

Here is the thread of comprehensive personalities...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=16356

enjoy!

I know of this ... problem is that their Personality only tells part of the tale. Unless he is a Model Citizen or Perfectionist or something like that, it only covers one or two stats. What about all the other ones??

F.x. A 'Determined' player tells me that he has high Determination (which isn't hidden) and average to high Ambition (>9). But what about his Controversy, Sportsmanship, Pressure, Temperament and Professionalism scores?? ... they could be awful. But so far I have no way of knowing that.

It seems I can use the Media Type to determine at least some of the other hidden stats. I just need to figure out which ones

Actually you're wrong, loyalty is important to keep the squad morale high, and also that you have time to develop the younger players. You don't want a young player to have a low loyalty attribute as he will demand to leave if isn't played as much as he wants, especially if he is very ambitious to. Ambition and loyalty should both be high. Ambition so he wants to improve, but then again loyalty is important so he stays happy and that you have time to develop him. Complacency has not too much with loyalty to do, it is purely an attribute that tells how loyal he is to club and country nothing more (research guidelines). Complacency and un ambitious behaviour has to with a low ambition and proffesionalism attribute.

As I said, I have just been assuming it from the thread on FM Personalities. You are probably right though, that you'll want a High Ambition/High Loyalty player. But in said thread at least the Personality Types: 'Fairly Loyal', 'Loyal' and 'Devoted' are seen as negative types.

As I am still trying to figure out the Tutoring results, I decided to look at the success rate of each of my tutors. As each have had 5 runs with each Youngster, they should be somewhat comparable. Since I didn't make a Youngster of every single Personality type, results are not exact.

So at the moment I decided to have a look at each Tutor's average stat effect over the 35 runs.

Surprisingly, my 'Driven/Iron-Willed' (DET=20, PRE=20, AMB=12) tutor scored the lowest, with having an average effect on the Youngsters at about 50% of the second worst tutor.

I would have thought that players with really high stats would give the best result on average.

My Tutor F (Driven/Iron-Willed) (no PPMs)

(DET=20,INF=14,ADA=10,AMB=12,CON=7,LOY=12,PRE=20,PRO=13,SPO=12,TEM=12)

had the following results:

Average stat shift: 8,29 (lowest: 0, highest: 27)

Personality clashes: 7

Youngster rejecting tutoring: 10

Youngster 'Gained Nothing': 6

Youngster 'Gained a Little': 12

Second worst was this guy:

Tutor C (Resolute) (2 PPMs)

(DET=15,INF=14,ADA=12,AMB=12,CON=4,LOY=8,PRE=14,PRO=17,SPO=14,TEM=13)

Average stat shift: 15,09 (lowest: 0, highest: 33)

Personality clashes: 3

Youngster rejecting tutoring: 5

Youngster 'Gained Nothing': 3

Youngster 'Gained a Little': 8

Appreciated Influence (1 PPM): 8

Benefited (2 PPMs): 8

Both seem to have good scores across the board, and you would want the Youngsters to move towards those. But maybe the gap between a Neutral/Negative Personality in the Youngsters is too great to these very positive ones.

On the other hand, my Light-Hearted tutor seems to be very effective.

Tutor D (Light-Hearted) (1 PPM)

(DET=14,INF=13,ADA=10,AMB=12,CON=6,LOY=10,PRE=16,PRO=10,SPO=16,TEM=12)

Average stat shift: 20,69 (lowest: 0, highest: 38)

Personality clashes: 3 (in one instance the Youngster did get the PPM too before tutoring ended)

Youngster rejecting tutoring: 0

Youngster 'Gained Nothing': 3

Youngster 'Gained a Little': 11

Appreciated Influence (1 PPM): 18

That is a good test, but I guess you have to compare the personalities of the youngsters at tutor start, and see if you find some tendencies there. In the tests I did in the autumn, with players already in the DB, I found that one player could reject one tutorer even if the difference between them in personalities wasn't big. What I did find however was that if the youngster had one or more attribute 5 point lower or higher than the tutorers that attribute had an 80 % succes rate.

Anyway what's important for sure is to have proffesional players tutor youngsters as if you read this guide the proffesionalism attribute are the main attribute for player development:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

This guide was made for FM09, but I've checked with the author and there seems to be no change in FM2010. Might be some info you can use in your tests.

Also have you done tests to see if gaining PPM's have something to do with the youngsters attributes? F.ex if how likely a youngster with a low dribling and technique attribute is to gain one of the run with ball PPM etc..

That is a good test, but I guess you have to compare the personalities of the youngsters at tutor start, and see if you find some tendencies there. In the tests I did in the autumn, with players already in the DB, I found that one player could reject one tutorer even if the difference between them in personalities. What I did find however was that if the youngster had one or more attribute 5 point lower or higher than the tutorers that attribute had an 80 % succes rate.

Anyway what's important for sure is to have proffesional players tutor youngsters as if you read this guide the proffesionalism attribute are the main attribute for player development:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

This guide was made for FM09, but I've checked with the author and there seems to be no change in FM2010. Might be some info you can use in your tests.

Also have you done tests to see if gaining PPM's have something to do with the youngsters attributes? F.ex if how likely a youngster with a low dribling and technique attribute is to gain one of the run with ball PPM etc..

Thanks I'll check that link ... might be useful.

I haven't looked into any of the visible stats except Determination and Influence. I had it in my mind that those did not matter. Might be worth investigating.

But I keep coming up with additional things I should test though, so I guess I'll never fully figure out this aspect of the game. But at least hope to learn something more than I did before, so I can make better educated guesses as to which pairings are good or bad or how to guess the hidden stats of players.

What do you mean with an 80% success rate?? ... in the amount of points gained? ...so that if the difference was 5 points, he would on average shift 4 points?

Keep up the good work Would be great to know more about tutoring, its probably more useful than training ever will be in getting players to reach their potential. One other thing that would be interesting is whether there are diminshing returns should you use the same tutor/tutee combination multiple times.

I just realised that I have discovered some posts that I can comment based on my tests last august.

I would guess that if the difference is too great, the tutoring would end later in a clash of personalities (so far this has happened once for one of the other pairings

This seems to be a random thing as I had some personality clashes, and there were nothing that suggested that the difference in personality had to be great. F.ex I had one youngster that at the start of the tutor sequence had 4-5 points difference compared to the tutor of in all the attributes, except adaptability wich was above 10. And they clashed. At the day they clashed the youngster had a 1-4 point difference, the adadptability attribute was 8.

The stuff that makes me think it is random is that several tests was done with Edwin van der Sar and Ben Amos and they aren't to different, Amos attributes have a 4-5 points as the example above difference from van der Sar attributes, and they clashed 50 % of the time..

This doesn't seem to be supported by my tests. To me, it seems to more about personalities (and other factors??) regarding how successful a tutoring is. I sometimes see very small changes in a 15 year old and huge shifts for a 21 year old, and vice versa. But I guess to test this, I'd need to have two identical Youngsters of different ages to test this on.

My test showed the same, huge changes seems to occur at all ages, and the same with low changes.

Anyway in my tests I did note down the players I had the best experience with. With these players I never experinced a clash, and except from the players that didn't have a PPM, 7/8 of the sequences ended in benefitted or appreciated influence. In those cases the tutorer had no PPM's I counted gained little as a succes if the changes in the attributes averaged over 3.

I did a check on the players that I have used for tutoring and the ones that I had most succes with had above 15 in ambition, loyality, pressure and proffesionalism.

The following players was:

GK:

Buffon (have one PPM), Adler, Frey and Ochoa

Def:

Carragher, Evra, Ferdinand, Terry, Samuel, Lucio, Cannavaro, Hyypia and Nelsen

Mids:

Brighi, Toulalan, Zhirkov, Cambiasso, Doni, Tikhonov, Munitis (best ever), Gerrard, Lampard, Messi and Kaka

Atts:

Amauri, Raul, Kuyt and Årst

There were of course players with lower than 15 in one or more of the attributes I mentioned that often was a succes tutor, but with these players I also had clashes or gained nothing, F.ex Riquelme, Berbatov, Ronaldo, Nani, Ronaldinho.

What do you mean with an 80% success rate?? ... in the amount of points gained? ...so that if the difference was 5 points, he would on average shift 4 points?

I meant that in 80 % of the tests the youngster levelled the attribute with his tutorer. If ambition of youngster was 10 and the same attribute of the tutorer was 15 or 5, the youngster had the same number as the tutorer when th sequence was finnished.

I meant that in 80 % of the tests the youngster levelled the attribute with his tutorer. If ambition of youngster was 10 and the same attribute of the tutorer was 15 or 5, the youngster had the same number as the tutorer when th sequence was finnished.

Ahhh ok

In my tests that does not seem to be the case though. For a 5 point difference, they rarely get all 5. If it is 4 or less it is much more likely to shift all the way to the Tutor's stat.

F.x. in one pairing, the tutor had PRO=13, and the Youngster PRO=8. In the 5 runs on the pairing, the Youngster's Professionalism ended up at: 11,11,11,10,9.

In another test Tutor's PRE=16 and Youngster's PRE=11. The 5 runs resulted in: 15,14,11,13,14.

But of course the larger the span is, the larger the potential gain is. My biggest shift was in one test, where the Youngster shifted from DET=6 to DET=14 (Tutor DET=18).

Could be other factors that made the 5 point difference wipe out. I had several shifts of 8 points, but that seems to be maximum. Have you ever had a bigger shift than that?

Could be other factors that made the 5 point difference wipe out. I had several shifts of 8 points, but that seems to be maximum. Have you ever had a bigger shift than that?

No ..I have only seen it once in my 35 runs.

Also I think Personality Clashing is quite random as you say, though I think that there are some Personality Types that are more likely to clash than others.

I personally think that SI made a matrix for the Types, not the actual stats as to whom would be compatible.

Also I think some Types just flat out rejects tutoring from a person of a certain Type. F.x. my 'Very Loyal' and 'Temperamental' youngsters rejected tutoring from my 'Driven' tutor. But the 'Fairly Professional' youngster (with TEM=3) had no problems with him.