Why Doesnt SI Include Lesser Cups for Playable Leagues?

Today Canvey Island beat Dag and Red in the Essex Cup.

Dag and Red are a playable team in FM, sooo...Why arent the regional cups included in FM for playable teams? Especially as SI market this game as a realistic footie simulation? Single person editors have managed to replicate England down 10 levels. Surely the large and professional SI staff can do the same thing.

I'd like to see SI take on the best db editors so that their excellent work can be incorporated into FM12.

I love some of the edited databases. I don't know about nowadays particularly, but some teams a few years back would place quite a deal of importance on their respective county cup competitions. I remember that Cheshire Senior Cup matches between the likes Runcorn, Altrincham, Northwich Victoria, Macclesfield Town, Witton Albion, etc... (back in the 80's and 90's when there was a strong contingent of Cheshire clubs at the tip of the non-league pyramid) would be just as well attended and highly regarded by clubs and fans, as they would had they been league, FA Cup or FA Trophy ties.

The thing is, how far do you go with something like this? How much importance and detail would SI be expected to devote to this additional detail and research, even with a big helping hand from the community and researchers? Would you just expand this for English football, or for other countries to? (Bearing in mind I've now seen first hand how far down the Spanish researchers try to get data for clubs and competitions there).

Personally, I'm in favour more of keeping it fan created at the moment, though there is a lot of data already researched and included in the game, for clubs and competitions around the world, in countries or at levels that aren't currently playable, so it's not entirely impossible. The building blocks are certainly there, but I suppose it depends how much demand there really is to follow through in such detail.

It would be nice though, to play as either of my two most local clubs, CD Huétor Tájar or CD Loja, both in the Tercera División Grupo IX, here in Spain

I'd like to see SI take on the best db editors so that their excellent work can be incorporated into FM12.

I couldnt agree more, PPH. Id like to see them included in 11.2

I love some of the edited databases. I don't know about nowadays particularly, but some teams a few years back would place quite a deal of importance on their respective county cup competitions. I remember that Cheshire Senior Cup matches between the likes Runcorn, Altrincham, Northwich Victoria, Macclesfield Town, Witton Albion, etc... (back in the 80's and 90's when there was a strong contingent of Cheshire clubs at the tip of the non-league pyramid) would be just as well attended and highly regarded by clubs and fans, as they would had they been league, FA Cup or FA Trophy ties.

The thing is, how far do you go with something like this? How much importance and detail would SI be expected to devote to this additional detail and research, even with a big helping hand from the community and researchers? Would you just expand this for English football, or for other countries to? (Bearing in mind I've now seen first hand how far down the Spanish researchers try to get data for clubs and competitions there).

Personally, I'm in favour more of keeping it fan created at the moment, though there is a lot of data already researched and included in the game, for clubs and competitions around the world, in countries or at levels that aren't currently playable, so it's not entirely impossible. The building blocks are certainly there, but I suppose it depends how much demand there really is to follow through in such detail.

It would be nice though, to play as either of my two most local clubs, CD Huétor Tájar or CD Loja, both in the Tercera División Grupo IX, here in Spain

The teams and many if not most of the players are already in the DB.

And, if the stated goal of SI is to provide as real a footballing experience as possible, then how can they leave this out? If they dont want to do it themselves, then incorporate work from the Editors Hideaway.

If you look at the latest posts in the RTC thread where the boffins are trying to recreate Level 11 as realistically as possible, you see that they both pay painful attention to the details of the tiniest cup comps, and that they are grappling with the complications of promotions and relegations. For many of the clubs at that level those local cup comps are more important. I notice in my Level 9 division that last years champions are still in the same division - i.e. either they aren't eligible for, or don't want promotion. That's quite common in the lower levels. I think heathxxx makes a fair point that the extra work might be disproportionate for SI to take onboard, but if the fans are doing fantastic work and by the end of the FM cycle it appears they've ironed out the bugs, why can't SI incorporate a few databases into next year's disk, for optional installation? Skins too, by the way.

If there's enough accurate data to create the leagues realistically they will. But now with the data editor there's even less incentive for SI to add new leagues in the game since people will create them. I'm still waiting for the German Regionalliga to come back...

Because not everyone wants them.

The great thing about having the fans and community chip in is that those who do want to have the option of having it. It doesn't have to be all loaded into the standard package and become unnecessary for those who don't touch it.

Because not everyone wants them.

The great thing about having the fans and community chip in is that those who do want to have the option of having it. It doesn't have to be all loaded into the standard package and become unnecessary for those who don't touch it.

Who doesnt want them? And, why not also exclude the League Cup and the Johnstone Paint Trophy?

Who doesnt want them? And, why not also exclude the League Cup and the Johnstone Paint Trophy?

Because League Cup and JPT are played by clubs that are all playable out of the box.

And I personally don't want them. The extra cup competitions would slow my game down.

If you include regional cups in England without XML files, you might as well include them for all leagues around the world. Not fair to only favour English cup competitions and cast all the other countries aside.

Today Canvey Island beat Dag and Red in the Essex Cup.

Dag and Red are a playable team in FM, sooo...Why arent the regional cups included in FM for playable teams? Especially as SI market this game as a realistic footie simulation? Single person editors have managed to replicate England down 10 levels. Surely the large and professional SI staff can do the same thing.

There are a lot of strange rules/situations with the county cups that would be a nightmare to implement, and would be out of date as soon as SI released the game.

Firstly, how dynamic would you want them? IRL, the entrants change considerably from season to season, as does the cup formats, would you still want Dag & Red in the Essex cup if they were a Premier team, because I assure you they wouldn't still be entering. IRL teams withdraw depending on situation, including mid-season.

Second, IRL teams are members of one county FA and can be affiliated to another. If you enter the county cup of the second county then very strange things happen with the rules. The matches are officially friendlies but banned players can't play but neither do they use up a game from their suspension. Players sent off in these games get bans in terms of days not matches, and these are much longer than regular bans (county FA bans tend to be in the region of 45 days for a red card). This is only for the second county cup.

For this reason my team (Bromley) no longer enter the London Cup in addition to the Kent Cup.

Of course, FM may be able to replicate everything, but it is so dynamic it would never be accurate, so it is probably a good decision not to include them. You say that single person editors have replicated England down 10 levels, but I promise you that none of them have done so to an accuracy that would be acceptable from SI. I have seen many small details such as the county cup scenario above that are not in those files for example.

Today Canvey Island beat Dag and Red in the Essex Cup.

Dag and Red are a playable team in FM, sooo...Why arent the regional cups included in FM for playable teams? Especially as SI market this game as a realistic footie simulation? Single person editors have managed to replicate England down 10 levels. Surely the large and professional SI staff can do the same thing.

Simple answer really - research is really poor after step 3. It's hard enough to get good research for step 2 clubs in England.

And, to be honest, very few clubs really care about County Cups these days. Most see it as a nuisance. Football League and Conference sides don't even play their first teams in the cups in the majority of cases. In fact, most teams don't play their best sides in the County Cups, which is why you get a situation like Canvey Island beating Dag&Red in the Essex county cup.

Simple answer really - research is really poor after step 3. It's hard enough to get good research for step 2 clubs in England.

And, to be honest, nobody really cares about County Cups these days. Football League and Conference sides don't even play their first teams in the cups in the majority of cases. In fact, most teams don't play their best sides in the County Cups, which is why you get a situation like Canvey Island beating Dag&Red in the Essex county cup.

Could say the same for the League Cup and FA Cup... that's why you get x club beating y club

You say that single person editors have replicated England down 10 levels, but I promise you that none of them have done so to an accuracy that would be acceptable from SI. I have seen many small details such as the county cup scenario above that are not in those files for example.

None of them do so to an accuracy that would be acceptable to me either!

Could say the same for the League Cup and FA Cup... that's why you get x club beating y club

What I am saying is that Football League and Conference sides literally enter their reserve teams into the competition. Not just that they play weakened teams.

In fact, my club, St. Albans City, showed exactly how important the Herts Senior Cup is to their ambitions this season, with the first team playing a league match the night before a HSC tie. They then entered their reserve team the following night and promptly bowed out of the competition at the first hurdle.

In the case of the League Cup and the FA Cup, I would suggest that the majority of sides take these competitions seriously and want to compete. They are, in comparison, massive competitions.

I was one of 80 odd people watching St. Albans City's Herts Senior Cup tie against Royston Town last season! The Herts Charity Cup attracts even less attention! Are we really saying that we want these competitions in Football Manager, slowing down our games, for the sake of cups that nobody really cares about?

Plus, I must say that hluraven makes some good points in his post. The Herts Charity Cup, for instance, could never be accurate in FM, as different combinations of teams enter each year, which in turn changes the competition format

Ultimately, we're looking at increased processing times and hugely increased effort from researchers for very little payback. The research isn't good enough and not enough people care, is probably the short answer!

Who doesnt want them? And, why not also exclude the League Cup and the Johnstone Paint Trophy?

The league cup is still a major trophy, why would exclude it? The JPT is also a big enough deal for the professional lower league clubs.

The amount of data that would be required to run every single league in the world would be incredible, as someone else posted, why would they stop with lower league english clubs, how about the highland and junior leagues in scotland, same for every single country they include, you would spend half of your life waiting for the game to load.