Patriotism

So I've been giving some thought to the international aspect of Football Manager, and reading posts on the forum in the same vein, and it strikes me that there is some room for improvement in this area.

A gripe that I have, and I appreciate that it will vary from game to game, is that England are extremely good. Now, that's a little bit of a sweeping statement, but bear with me. It seems like SI haven't quite discovered a way to fully flesh-out a good team on paper under-performing on the biggest stage. So many players perform better in their international jerseys, and others their clubs', and I don't feel this is adequately represented in-game. I'm using England as an example, but it can apply to anyone. So, I propose this: a 'patriotism' stat. Now, I have no idea whether there'd be legal issues with this (I can't see why - current players are judged on their other mental characteristics and they get into the game), or whether it'd be impossible to code. But I think it could make things really interesting. Obviously this would be another hidden mental stat. I think it would enable players and teams to perform in more varied and interesting ways. For instance, ignoring the ramifications for the current game world (i.e. Perhaps England failing to deliver more regularly, and certain players catching the eye that wouldn't normally), once you got into a more re-gen dominated world, countries could rise up. This could lead to interesting relationships with the dynamic league reputation (if it works like this); international teams' success could impact slightly on their leagues reputation. It should be no more difficult to gauge a player's commitment to his country than his aggression, or decision-making, and the other seemingly unquantifiable mental stats that the researchers do such a good job reproducing. Perhaps one's international staff could report on whether they think players would adapt to international games.

Also, I think there really should be some greater hype, in the national and international media, in the run-up to the tournament; this could dovetail with the above suggestion and players other mental stats - different countries could have (dynamic - based on historic and subsequent successes) media pressures. This could lead to some pressure related issues amongst the squad and players; players and fans becoming unhappy over the course of the tournament with your tactics and/or selection policy; and the unrest caused by controversial pre-tournament squad selections.

Furthermore, with this increased importance on the big international tournaments, and the successes of players due to their World Cup performances could further enhance the transfer market experience; we could have new media stories appearing with big teams all going in for a player after a revelatory World Cup (partly off the back of his high Patriotism stat); and then the media hounding the manager after his new signing fails to live up to the hype in his new club shirt. Even if the human manager could see this and be wary of it, perhaps the AI would be more prone to go in for a player after such performances on the world stage. It would also be a great way for clubs to get more money for their players (rather than; 'Oh he's a key player, sorry, he'll cost you £120 million...') , with clubs' interest in players going into overdrive during the post-tournament summer months (and even teams getting bargains before it all kicks-off).

It'd be interesting to hear your views guys...(but not on whether England do actually have a strong side on paper in real life - they clearly do, stats-wise, in the game)

after frank lampard, peter crouch and wayne rooney won me the world cup, i like england being good, but yeah, it's a good idea, but i do think it should be editable in the editor, and available to view in game by the national coach with conversational options to try and entice players to be more patriotic.

I agree, but I don't think it should be called Patriotism; it's almost a subset of the Adaptability attribute.

I agree, but I don't think it should be called Patriotism; it's almost a subset of the Adaptability attribute.

I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily think that the ideas of being able to adapt to living in a new country and fitting into a new team set-up are intrinsically linked to the thought processes involved in being driven to perform for your country. Fitting into the international tactical set-up, maybe, but would you have the Adaptability stat divided into two or more specific, but linked attributes? I just felt it would be easier and more distinct to create something new. It's also linked to Professionalism as well I suppose.

It could be a manager matter. Being their tactics, or motivating attribute or whatever, they could be successful at clubs and bad at nations. Surely Mourinho would bring the best out of any nation WW (not winning a WC necessarily though, squad strenght plays a large part of course here). In a national level competition, where players are not used to play together often, plus with squads changing quite often, coaching should play half of the national results, whereas in a club coaching should play a bit less (in coaching I don't integrate managing skills related to buying players, training them, and so on though, as including those, manager play 80% of a club's long run results).

What do you think ?

Do you think all national teams fail because of lack of 'patriotism' ?

Italy is a great example. You won't find many national sides as patriotic - yet they slumped in the world cup. Professionalism, temperament and adaptability attributes are more key in my view.

I'd agree its more to do with adaptability - Rooney and Gerrard badly wanted to do well, but they were both poo.

Something should be included to represent it however.

Do you think all national teams fail because of lack of 'patriotism' ?

Italy is a great example. You won't find many national sides as patriotic - yet they slumped in the world cup. Professionalism, temperament and adaptability attributes are more key in my view.

Perhaps that is true, but in that instance England are still significantly better in the game than IRL, which is where the idea for a new hidden stat comes in. The idea isn't based on whether 'all national teams fail because of a lack of "patriotism"' but on a single example of the English team. So your comment is kind of irrelevant.

I think it's a pretty good idea. Like you say though, could be difficult to get it to work in the game.

Maybe just have a stat 'International games' or something, which can positively or negatively affect performance for the national team, much like attribute which affects big games, and doesn't have the problem of a negative stigma like a low 'patriotism' attribute would have.

It difficult to replicate England's failures. What about media pressure being added? England are obviously under massive pressure every tournament and this could be put into the game. Some players may respond well to it and some bad.

the direction of the discussion seems similar to how the big games hidden attribute should work???

It could be a manager matter

Sure, there could be something similar that is added to managers' stats, but the two are not mutually exclusive (rather they would work well together). However that's all well and good with AI managers, but then you run into all sorts of problems with how a human manager could possibly raise or lower a stat that marked them out as being particularly good at managing a national side - it couldn't be based on experience as most human manager stats are, as plenty of international managers seem to have little to no top-club-management experience, and they still do well.

Do you think all national teams fail because of lack of 'patriotism' ?

Maybe just have a stat 'International games' or something

No no, not at all, I just used the term 'patriotism' as the stat identifier as I felt it was something neat and summatory that people might understand. You can of course have no care for your country and still do well for it. It's just that is what it's often put down to in the media, so I felt it would be a neat name. It also allows it to be a little more all-encompassing as it would allow it to tie in with all of the media pressures I suggested, whereas 'International games' is indicative of it being exclusive to the matches themselves.

the direction of the discussion seems similar to how the big games hidden attribute should work???

I disagree. The whole point of this theoretical stat is to differentiate between club and country form, so to have them under the same umbrella is exactly why it doesn't work at the moment. For instance: the in-game Lampard, Ronaldo, and Messi (to name but a few) all replicate their club form for their countries, however we all know that this is unrealistic. The point can obviously be raised that this is due to the tactical set-ups of their nations not being geared towards getting the best out of them, unlike their clubs, rendering an additional stat unnecessary, but I feel it is. How often do you see Lampard drill one into the net from outside the box for England; or Messi rinse three defenders on his way to goal for Argentina - things that happen quite (ish) often for their clubs - individual skills and match-winning instances that are not necessarily dependent on how their team are set out by the manager. And this is what the stat would change - how likely a player is to replicate his club form, or skills, for his country - that is where the discrepancy with real-life lies - to say that when playing a big game for Manchester United you face the same pressures as playing in a World Cup is naive.