The most important aspects to judge players by? (Information overload)

Being a old school champ manager player, I remember the most important stats that I used when weighing up players used to be Determination, Consistency and their overall ability. Granted you could only view consistency through a editor but that never bothered me.

What I am finding in football manager 2010 is that there are just too many stats, and I am finding it very difficult to judge players and work out if they will improve my squad.

Maybe its a personal thing but I do think there is a big problem of information overload in the FM series and it getting worse with each release. I just feel that somewhere along the way the game aspect of FM has been lost and has been replaced with for want of a better word fluff and needless complexity.

Back on topic, what do people feel are the most important overall stats to judge players by, you always hear people like Alan Hansen banging on about pace in the modern day, do you feel this is more important than say jumping etc.

This isnt a rant, just a player who is interested in this topic and curious of other players opinions.

For me, it really just depends where the position of the player For eexample, I want my defenders to have good jumping, marking, tackling etc whilst my wingers need good pace, acceleration, dribbling and so on. Determination isn't something that bothers me too much as it can be improved through tutoring.

Important attributes depend on which position this player is for and your style of play. I don't really find an information overload though. You just need to look and find players that match your specifications.

What sort of information are you referring to when you say an overload though?

I did kind of expect a few replies with 'depending on the position' etc. I remember in the old champ manager games that for the most part the attributes of players such as jumping/marking etc were not as important as the hidden attributes such as current potential/consistency etc. The emphasis was more on how determined the players were, how hard they worked, their influence, if you had players with these key stats you were more than likely going to build a winning team.

So am I right in thinking now that the raw attributes such as finishing/movement etc for say a striker are more important than how determined they are, how consistent and even their overall ability value?

As for the information overload comment, thats just something I feel about the latest versions of FM. They just dont feel like the old games used to, there is way to much complexity and the fun aspect of building a team, investing in players etc seems to bogged down in way too much complexity.

Take for example a match day, it seems that in each version it takes longer and longer to actually play a match. First you had just the normal match experience, then you add the teamtalk aspect, then you add individual tactics and now there's the sideline commands.

Like I said in my original post sometimes I think the developers have forgotten that this is a game and should be fun. Sometimes the more I play FM, the more I miss the sheer joy and fun of the old CM games.

Current ability has no impact on the match engine. You could have two strikers, one with a CA of 130 who's attributes that are important for his position are all really high, but his other attributes are low, then another striker with a CA of 160 who's key attributes are lower but has higher less important attributes. Whilst the player with a CA of 160 would be a better rounded player, the striker with a CA of 130 would more then likely be the better goalscorer.

Determination is still important, but I find that as long as your team in general has high determination, then having a couple of players who are lower isn't really going to make much of a difference.

Current ability has no impact on the match engine. You could have two strikers, one with a CA of 130 who's attributes that are important for his position are all really high, but his other attributes are low, then another striker with a CA of 160 who's key attributes are lower but has higher less important attributes. Whilst the player with a CA of 160 would be a better rounded player, the striker with a CA of 130 would more then likely be the better goalscorer.

Determination is still important, but I find that as long as your team in general has high determination, then having a couple of players who are lower isn't really going to make much of a difference.

WOW is this really the case? If so that changes the game completely.

So what exactly is the point of the CA attribute, how does the secret CA and PA ability effect the game?

So in theory I could have a striker with a CA of 200, with 10 finishing and 10 movement who isnt as good as my player with a ability of 100 with 13 finishing and 13 movement. How does that make sense?

So when looking for players are we just now supposed to look for the players with the best stats for the relevant position?

This is one of the things that frustrates me about the FM series, it all seems very very grey in terms of game mechanics. I always get the feeling there is a hell of a lot of smoke and mirrors by SI in terms of tactics and players stats and how they effect the game.

WOW is this really the case? If so that changes the game completely.

So what exactly is the point of the CA attribute, how does the secret CA and PA ability effect the game?

So in theory I could have a striker with a CA of 200, with 10 finishing and 10 movement who isnt as good as my player with a ability of 100 with 13 finishing and 13 movement. How does that make sense?

So when looking for players are we just now supposed to look for the players with the best stats for the relevant position?

This is one of the things that frustrates me about the FM series, it all seems very very grey in terms of game mechanics. I always get the feeling there is a hell of a lot of smoke and mirrors by SI in terms of tactics and players stats and how they effect the game.

All the attributes are weighted against the players CA and depending on the position, certain attributes are weighted higher. For example, a pace and acceleration are two of the most important attributes for a winger so will eat up more CA. Because of this, a player with a lower CA could have better key attributes then a pleyer with a higher CA, but because this will use up more CA, the less important attributes will be lower so he won't be as good an all round footballer. The chances of finding a player with 100 CA being a better striker then a striker with 200 CA are very remote though due to the huge difference in CA.

And yes, you should really be looking for players based on their attributes, but surely thats always been the case?

All the attributes are weighted against the players CA and depending on the position, certain attributes are weighted higher. For example, a pace and acceleration are two of the most important attributes for a winger so will eat up more CA. Because of this, a player with a lower CA could have better key attributes then a pleyer with a higher CA, but because this will use up more CA, the less important attributes will be lower so he won't be as good an all round footballer. The chances of finding a player with 100 CA being a better striker then a striker with 200 CA are very remote though due to the huge difference in CA.

And yes, you should really be looking for players based on their attributes, but surely thats always been the case?

I'm sorry to be a pain but can you explain that a bit further, what exactly do you mean attributes are weighted against a players current ability? Can you give a example?

Do you mean that if a player has pace of 16 and a CA of 150, he will be faster than a player with pace of 19 and a CA of 140 as he has a higher CA?

Maybe its my mindset, I just always remembered from old CM games that certain attributes seemed to be far more valuable overall and these seemed to me to be far the overriding factor in how a player performed.

I guess what I am looking for is for a response from SI or a developer explaining exactly how the attributes of players work together. Before I go trawling through the boards, has SI ever come out and given the fanbase this kind of core information either through a post or a possible guide?

I'm sorry to be a pain but can you explain that a bit further, what exactly do you mean attributes are weighted against a players current ability? Can you give a example?

Do you mean that if a player has pace of 16 and a CA of 150, he will be faster than a player with pace of 19 and a CA of 140 as he has a higher CA?

Maybe its my mindset, I just always remembered from old CM games that certain attributes seemed to be far more valuable overall and these seemed to me to be far the overriding factor in how a player performed.

I guess what I am looking for is for a response from SI or a developer explaining exactly how the attributes of players work together. Before I go trawling through the boards, has SI ever come out and given the fanbase this kind of core information either through a post or a possible guide?

No no no....

A simplified version would be that a player with 100 CA has 100 stat points to distribute between all stats, so he could have 4 20's and 20 1's in total, while a 200CA player could have 9 20's and the rest 1's.

The weighting means that it doesn't quite work that way. If a defender has 15 tackling, it may "reserve" 20 points of CA, while a striker with 15 tackling is only using 10 of his CA on that tackling ability.

At the end of the day, what it means is that a player with a higher current ability will have more attribute points all together. For instance, a striker with 20 in his important stats and 1's in all others may have a lower CA than a striker with 15 in every single stat. He'll also perform far worse overall, but be better in a few narrowly defined areas.

For instance, if he has 20 pace, acceleration and finishing but 1's elsewhere, he'll be unbalanced, liable to run into a brick wall, fall over at the slightest brush, 2 foot tall and have the composure of a teenager meeting a hollywood babe. The more rounded, higher CA player with 15 in all stats will be slower and less able to finish in perfect circumstances, but will be strong, balanced, composed, and generally a fantastic player all round.

Thanks for the reply, so if i'm understanding this correctly its worth looking for players with high stats for their position even though they may have average looking stats elsewhere such as a striker with low tackling skill etc?

I think that is exactly what he is saying. Finding a striker with good finishing, composure, pace and a couple other stats is better than getting one who is good at tackling, marking and everything else. You want your striker to be up in front scoring goals, so he needs good stats in things that will help him do that. Think about Michael Owen in real life. One of the best finishers, gets himself in the right positions to score, and doesn't panic. Attributes all important to a striker. So while it might look nice to have high stats all over the place for players, it is not always important for all positions.

So when you are training players, it is also better to train them heavily in the areas that are important to their position rather than balancing everything out.

So who would be the better finisher - one-footed striker with 18 finishing/composure or two-footed striker with 15 finishing/composure?

As also an "old School" champ manager I find the stats bewildering, my only confident way of assessing players is via the scout reports - although the odd player deemed not worthy can still make it if you have a hunch and he looks good.

I did kind of expect a few replies with 'depending on the position' etc. I remember in the old champ manager games that for the most part the attributes of players such as jumping/marking etc were not as important as the hidden attributes such as current potential/consistency etc. The emphasis was more on how determined the players were, how hard they worked, their influence, if you had players with these key stats you were more than likely going to build a winning team.

So am I right in thinking now that the raw attributes such as finishing/movement etc for say a striker are more important than how determined they are, how consistent and even their overall ability value?

As for the information overload comment, thats just something I feel about the latest versions of FM. They just dont feel like the old games used to, there is way to much complexity and the fun aspect of building a team, investing in players etc seems to bogged down in way too much complexity.

Take for example a match day, it seems that in each version it takes longer and longer to actually play a match. First you had just the normal match experience, then you add the teamtalk aspect, then you add individual tactics and now there's the sideline commands.

Like I said in my original post sometimes I think the developers have forgotten that this is a game and should be fun. Sometimes the more I play FM, the more I miss the sheer joy and fun of the old CM games.

Go play fifa manager if you want fun, you can build stadiums, play as the player, etc. This game is a true simulation of football, therefore it must remain authentic and very realistic. The fact that you need some time before a game shows how you have to play differently depending on the opponent. If you want just 1 tactic and keep that tactic for the rest of your managing career, then the game becomes unrealistic since other manager should already know by the 2nd season how you play and can counter your tactics easily.

Also, i like how crappy teams cannot buy players like Messi because of the high wage and low club reputation. in fifa manager, as the Wolves I was able to sign messi in my 4th season, which irl that would be utterly impossible

To me, teamwork and determination are the most important for any role on the pitch. I just want a team that doesn't give up easily when things don't go as planned, and work together to get the wins. I also like to make sure my players are not overly slow, weak or short unless it's a well thought out decision to disregard this weakness.

I did kind of expect a few replies with 'depending on the position' etc. I remember in the old champ manager games that for the most part the attributes of players such as jumping/marking etc were not as important as the hidden attributes such as current potential/consistency etc. The emphasis was more on how determined the players were, how hard they worked, their influence, if you had players with these key stats you were more than likely going to build a winning team.

So am I right in thinking now that the raw attributes such as finishing/movement etc for say a striker are more important than how determined they are, how consistent and even their overall ability value?

As for the information overload comment, thats just something I feel about the latest versions of FM. They just dont feel like the old games used to, there is way to much complexity and the fun aspect of building a team, investing in players etc seems to bogged down in way too much complexity.

Take for example a match day, it seems that in each version it takes longer and longer to actually play a match. First you had just the normal match experience, then you add the teamtalk aspect, then you add individual tactics and now there's the sideline commands.

Like I said in my original post sometimes I think the developers have forgotten that this is a game and should be fun. Sometimes the more I play FM, the more I miss the sheer joy and fun of the old CM games.

Not being a joke, but you sound like you might enjoy http://www.championshipmanager.co.uk

Old fashioned "buy the best and win" gameplay. I enjoy both games for different reasons.