5212 need help

[Novem9]

I want my team use tackles in middle and use quick counter after this

Edited September 18, 2020 by Novem9

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

I want my team use tackles in middle and use quick counter after this

5212 is not that good if you want to play counter attacking football but great if you want to play high pressing. If you want to counter you want to attract the opposition to give you space first. Without any space there is no counter to be made. The 5212 formation is not deep enough to attract opposition to give you space.

[Novem9]

13 минут назад, zyfon5 сказал:

5212 is not that good if you want to play counter attacking football but great if you want to play high pressing. If you want to counter you want to attract the opposition to give you space first. Without any space there is no counter to be made. The 5212 formation is not deep enough to attract opposition to give you space.

Thank you, I got it.

Well I want to play 5212 anyway so I will change a trap for pressing

[Novem9]

@zyfon5

Could you check this one please?

Few questions

1. What about WB? I guess to switch one or  both in WB(a)
2. Not sure about CM pair, classic DLP-BBM maybe?
3. CAM slot is my biggest issue. Always want to use something special. But as I understand T or EG is not good idea for high pressure?

[HanziZoloman]

The question is: what kind of movements or passings do you want to see?

You want your team high up the pitch pressing the opponent and then what?

If you have PFa and PFs and a hard working AMC behind they will press the opponents defensive line but who will press the FB?

maybe you need a WBa and WBs?
 

I would use your MCs for winning the long clear balls of the opponents defenders in the middle. They should stay a little in the back like a MCs/d and a DLPs.

but the main question is still what do your players should do after winning the ball. They are all high up there will not be much room and only little time (faster tempo) direct play? You see? You demand much of your team is it skilled enough to perform? I believe your offensive players should have good First Touch to take on the ball, good Off the ball movement to quickly move into space and good anticipation too. Also they will need some vision to see where the other players are.

For the pressing you‘ll need brave, determined and strong players who can do a tackle.

[zyfon5]

48 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

@zyfon5

Could you check this one please?

Few questions

1. What about WB? I guess to switch one or  both in WB(a)
2. Not sure about CM pair, classic DLP-BBM maybe?
3. CAM slot is my biggest issue. Always want to use something special. But as I understand T or EG is not good idea for high pressure?

For the team instructions you will need to observe yourself as there is no one size fits all approach. There will be different team instructions for different teams. And based on what I am seeing here I think you are good enough to figure it out.

1. I think WB(s) is aggressive enough on positive team mentality. You can always try for a few games.

2. The primary job for CM pair for a 5212 is to provide an outlet for recycling possession or switch the ball to another side while providing some screening to the CB. Ideally you want energetic midfielders that are decent defensively here to make up for the lack of wingers when you are defending the sides.

3. The CAM slot is the most interesting part in this formation. You do not necessarily need someone creative here as you can afford to drop one striker deep to become the creative outlet with two strikers up top. Think of playing a false 9 and false 10 together. Or you can go the conventional route playing a creative 10 here. The trequartista does not contribute too much defensively but it doesn't mean that they do not defend. There is an interesting thread about trequartista in this forum so you can read about it. Enganche I do not have too much experience with it so can't comment on it. My personal favourite combination for the attacking trio is CF(s)-Poacher-AM(s).

[zyfon5]

Saw someone questioning how to press the opposition full backs. You want your wing backs to press the opposition full backs here. The whole point of playing a 5212 is it allows you to completely stop the opposition from playing out from the back by shutting off all of the short passing options. It is for sure a risky set up but with the right team for it you can really play attractive attacking football. I also highly encourage to read on the Gasperini Atlanta thread which uses basically the same formation.

[sejo]

5 ore fa, zyfon5 ha scritto:

You want your wing backs to press the opposition full backs here. The whole point of playing a 5212 is it allows you to completely stop the opposition from playing out from the back by shutting off all of the short passing options

How do you manage to do that?

[HanziZoloman]

You set roles that your WB are high up the pitch and give TI press more urgent. Is a simple way to do that.

[sejo]

24 minuti fa, HanziZoloman ha scritto:

You set roles that your WB are high up the pitch and give TI press more urgent. Is a simple way to do that.

Is this enough to make your wb press the opposite fb?

[HanziZoloman]

There are some ways to do that. Usually you have wingers on both flanks who press the FB. But if there are no offensive wideplayers and you have some WB instead then you have to move them up (and give them also cover). You can give Opponent Instructions to press the FB too. Or you can play with a positive or even attacking mentality and give additional Opponents Instruction to press the FB.

Try to explain which it is you want to see in your match. Maybe then it’s easier to give help.
 

Edited September 18, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[zyfon5]

10 hours ago, sejo said:

How do you manage to do that?

More often than not your wingback will not need to press the full backs. If you set up correctly two strikers will shut off all the passing lanes to the defenders by forcing them to play the ball back to the GK.

[sejo]

6 ore fa, zyfon5 ha scritto:

If you set up correctly two strikers will shut off all the passing lanes to the defenders by forcing them to play the ball back to the GK

Like how?

[HanziZoloman]

In my imagination the strikers should have short ways to the CD and must operate high up the field. You also need two or better three players pressing. If you have three offensive players it should be easier, your striker presses one CD while the other are close to the other options. Passing the ball back to keeper who will just kick it up the field. There your other players are close to the opponents and mark them tight to win those balls.
Your team should Move as a pack. A single player pressing is just wasted, three or four players pressing is what you want. Of course you need to watch the gaps behind your pressing line.

the goal in pressing is either win the ball and have a short way to the goal or to force the opponents to kick the Ball uncomfortable up front. They should not be able to build from the back.

Edited September 19, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[sejo]

29 minuti fa, HanziZoloman ha scritto:

In my imagination the strikers should have short ways to the CD and must operate high up the field. You also need two or better three players pressing. If you have three offensive players it should be easier, your striker presses one CD while the other are close to the other options. Passing the ball back to keeper who will just kick it up the field. There your other players are close to the opponents and mark them tight to win those balls.
Your team should Move as a pack. A single player pressing is just wasted, three or four players pressing is what you want. Of course you need to watch the gaps behind your pressing line.

That's beautiful and what I want to achieve, but how? I mean, I use the 2 strikers plus the AM to press the opposite defencers, but then how do I tell my other players to close the opponents adn work like a pack?

[HanziZoloman]

5 hours ago, sejo said:

That's beautiful and what I want to achieve, but how? I mean, I use the 2 strikers plus the AM to press the opposite defencers, but then how do I tell my other players to close the opponents adn work like a pack?

Well, maybe you start with your Mentality: it should be positive or attacking. Then formation: post a picture of how you want to place your players on the pitch. After that come roles and duties.

then fine tuning with some Team instruction or Player Instruction or even Opponents Instruction.

also important: check the team comparison to other teams in the league: Work Rate, bravery, acceleration, anticipation, tackling that are the Skills you‘ll need.

key players: what Are your best players and how to use them.

Edited September 19, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[sejo]

I basically play like the OP, I'm not sure about the 2 midfielders. Anyway I'll post a screenshot later, thank you

[Novem9]

Feel free to answer for all, but question at first for @zyfon5

I followed your tips and changed my 5212 for ggp style. I promoted for PL and now is 6 despite prediction 18 so all looking good 

But I still searching for improves and I guess to change DLF(s) -> TM(s)

My question - Do I need use advanced changes (roles, TI) for TM(s) in this tactic?

 

[Experienced Defender]

On 19/09/2020 at 22:01, sejo said:

Anyway I'll post a screenshot later

But not in this thread please. If you want any discussion on your tactic, you'll have to start your own separate thread (no matter how similar your tactic might be to the OP's). Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to remove your post. 

[zyfon5]

On 20/09/2020 at 22:26, Novem9 said:

Feel free to answer for all, but question at first for @zyfon5

I followed your tips and changed my 5212 for ggp style. I promoted for PL and now is 6 despite prediction 18 so all looking good 

But I still searching for improves and I guess to change DLF(s) -> TM(s)

My question - Do I need use advanced changes (roles, TI) for TM(s) in this tactic?

 

Depends on what you want from the second striker and the attributes of the striker. Target man will make your team play a little bit more direct.

[Novem9]

7 часов назад, zyfon5 сказал:

Depends on what you want from the second striker and the attributes of the striker. Target man will make your team play a little bit more direct.

Oh it simple - I want he could be header assistant for CAM/AF

[zyfon5]

9 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Oh it simple - I want he could be header assistant for CAM/AF

TM(s) and dlf(s) overlap in a lot of key attributes so whoever you choose to play there likely can play both. Just avoid playing a short striker as a target man and you will be fine. You can even try a PF(s) if you want. However TM(s) will encourage your team to play more direct and more long balls to him so if it doesn't fit your playing style then you want to go for dlf(s) instead.